Darzin Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 isn't the problem with sorcery that it's a knock-off version of the real thing? I think so which is why it leaves a mark. Though this would imply the water the Cishaurim use is the real thing. Since they are unmarked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callan S. Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 I think they are just condensed doubt. So in a Nietzsche-esque 'god is dead' sort of way, such condensed doubt becomes the tears of god. Though it messes with my own theory that Earwa (or Rior, if you prefer!) is all a massive projection - in such a case you'd expect chorae to destroy anything they touch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokisnow Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 Chorae would be condensed certainty not condensed doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unJon Posted November 28, 2014 Author Share Posted November 28, 2014 Hmmm. Anyone familiar enough with Ancient Greek that can take a crack at 'Rior'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wise Fool Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 Fascinating idea, but I can't see it. The stuff you italicized is great supporting material, but here's what trips me up: If they were literal tears in the God would they not be like sorcerers themselves? Sorcery is the thing that tears up the fabric of the God's creation. So it's hard for me to see how the chorae could sort up tear up the thing that's creating the tears. Does that make sense? Not well-worded on my part. I see what you're saying, but the God and the onta are not the same thing, as Castel says. We get the idea of an omnipresent God through our religions, but in the Bukakkerverse the God exists in the Outside like every other non-physical entity does. So maybe just as the God damns sorcery, chorae annihilate sorcerers and nullify sorcery. Hmmm: Does Esme ever hold or touch Chorae? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castel Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 I see what you're saying, but the God and the onta are not the same thing, as Castel says. We get the idea of an omnipresent God through our religions, but in the Bukakkerverse the God exists in the Outside like every other non-physical entity does. So maybe just as the God damns sorcery, chorae annihilate sorcerers and nullify sorcery. Hmmm: Does Esme ever hold or touch Chorae? Yes, Akka notes that she has one when he comes back I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 Hmmm. Anyone familiar enough with Ancient Greek that can take a crack at 'Rior'? Ancient Greek? Rior, Rior was the immigrated Riorian homeworld. It was located in the Outer Rim Territories. In ancient times, when Riorians' ancestors were cliffborer worms, they lived on Tatooine. It is unclear what state of adaptation these people were in when they arrived on Rior. Rior was a peaceful world, practically crime-free. Riorians preferred calm reasoning to settle disputes. Rior, Rior was colonized by some adventurous Cliff Worms from Tatooine who had stowed away aboard a freighter that stopped there to make repairs, and kick off some worms that had stowed away. Over the years, the Riorian Cliff Worms evolved into peaceful sentient beings. Rior was left largely undistrubed, and the Riorians built a functioning civilization. Crime was almost non-existant, and was strictly punished by banishment or death, depending on the transgression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unJon Posted November 28, 2014 Author Share Posted November 28, 2014 Oh funny! Maybe why Bakker changed the name. Lucas is litigious about that stuff. I said Ancient Greek as it feels like many of his made up words, like Tekne, have their roots there. Closest I could find as a translation is the verb in Greek meaning "to flow." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 Well, if Bakker is to be believed that map is “thirty years old at least.” He was ~17 at the time¸ so the SW reference doesn’t seem that far-fetched. Although I just remembered that Bakker said in some interview that when he sent the first PON manuscript to a publishing house afterwards he started seeing his ‘names’ come up on Star Wars/Trek (or some TV show.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatúrinbor Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 Rior was colonized by some adventurous Cliff Worms from Tatooine who had stowed away aboard a freighter that stopped there to make repairs, and kick off some worms that had stowed away. Over the years, the Riorian Cliff Worms evolved into peaceful sentient beings. So basically an Inchoroi freighter stopped on Eärwa a long time ago where a couple of adventurous Sranc escaped and over the years evolved into the the Nonmen, invented magic, fucked up the onta which lead to damnation and now the Inchoroi are back to undo what they've done? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 So basically an Inchoroi freighter stopped on Eärwa a long time ago where a couple of adventurous Sranc escaped and over the years evolved into the the Nonmen, invented magic, fucked up the onta which lead to damnation and now the Inchoroi are back to undo what they've done?Don’t the Sranc have the same faces as the Nonmen? What if that’s not because they were made to look like them by the Inchoroi but the other way around? As in, the Nonmen look like the Sranc because the Sranc are their ancestors. What if the Nonmen are what happens when a Sranc grows a soul or evolves into a ‘peaceful sentient being’? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castel Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 Don’t the Sranc have the same faces as the Nonmen? What if that’s not because they were made to look like them by the Inchoroi but the other way around? As in, the Nonmen look like the Sranc because the Sranc are their ancestors. What if the Nonmen are what happens when a Sranc grows a soul or evolves into a ‘peaceful sentient being’? Heh. "Peaceful". Heh heh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 Well, before Erraticism they were peaceful, by our standards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castel Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 Well, before Erraticism they were peaceful, by our standards. Pretty sure that they couldn't actually get along even when faced with something as disgusting as the Inchoroi. Wasn't the king that fought them busy conquering all the land around him when they landed? Didn't a rival ally with them to attack him? They seem to be about the same. For all their talk of humans being children that can't grow they fucked up themselves big-time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 As nations they warred with each other, the same as humans do, but that doesn’t mean that they didn’t have functioning societies that were presumably relatively stable. On the individual level, there is a big gap between an erratic and a non-erratic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castel Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 As nations they warred with each other, the same as humans do, but that doesn’t mean that they didn’t have functioning societies that were presumably relatively stable. On the individual level, there is a big gap between an erratic and a non-erratic. Point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Buck Posted November 29, 2014 Share Posted November 29, 2014 We know surprisingly little about how an Intact functions. It seems they must require more than a mere elju, as both Mekeritrig and Cleric have those and they're still batshit crazy. I have my suspicions that there are actually metaphysical advantages to becoming Erratic (stronger sorcery, perhaps), otherwise it seems odd that Nonmen on the side of the Consult would not have taken steps to be less insane. Then again our only real example of a Consult Nonman is Mek, and he was already crazy during Seswatha's time. I also wonder if general "sanity" is less a marker between Erratic/Intact than there methods of self-maintenance. I.E., the Intacts may still be just as flighty and mentally disorganized as an Erratic, the only difference is that they haven't completely bought into the idea that atrocity is the sole means of remembering. An Erratc's actions only seem "insane" on the superficial human perspective, in other words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatúrinbor Posted November 29, 2014 Share Posted November 29, 2014 An Erratic's thoughts (as we saw in the short story) are constantly crowded with memories of past atrocities. An advantage, or disadvantage, of that might be the idea that Erratics are less susceptible to the 'darkness that comes before'? TDTCB specifically being the Goddess Oncis. Might have something to do with Mek's line to Kellhus that for Nonmen life is always a decision, but for humans, it decides. Maybe they even have free will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kuenjato Posted November 29, 2014 Share Posted November 29, 2014 Well, if Bakker is to be believed that map is “thirty years old at least.” He was ~17 at the time¸ so the SW reference doesn’t seem that far-fetched. Although I just remembered that Bakker said in some interview that when he sent the first PON manuscript to a publishing house afterwards he started seeing his ‘names’ come up on Star Wars/Trek (or some TV show.) Aren't there like 17,000 named entries for the expanded universe in SW? I could definitely see some unintended crossover with possibly many fantasy authors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted November 29, 2014 Share Posted November 29, 2014 Aren't there like 17,000 named entries for the expanded universe in SW? I could definitely see some unintended crossover with possibly many fantasy authors. I’m not sure, I only googled rior and that’s what came up. Anyone else getting extremely annoyed with the ^ in Anasûrimbor? If it were Anasurimbor it would be fine and a nice name, but how the fuck do you pronounce anasoorimbor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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