Castel Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 I cannot stop laughing at "Social Justice Aurax." Perhaps the most perversely funny thing I've ever encountered. The perfect trollrganism, engineered from the dreams of a million shitlords and turned against them by some perverse God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatúrinbor Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 One line that I noticed recently is when Celmomas tells Seswatha that he intends to fill Ishual with seeds. For some reason that line gave me shivers... Im almost certain that theres some literal meaning behind it. Then I'll just go back to my original crackpot, which is that the Celmomian Prophecy (one of my seed will return) means that an actual sperm sample of Celmomas will return at the end of the world. Before he left Ishual, Moenghus took the sample with him and used it to impregnate Esmenet, who gave birth to Mimara. The whole Dunyain/Kellhus is just a red herring, they're not from Celmomas' seed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatúrinbor Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 edit: If Moe does have a long-con, I wouldn't mind that so much, I'm convinced that he does. I think he did something to Cnaiur in the last scene between them, the whole "healing his innumerable scars" and so on that's been pointed out. I'm not sure to what end though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 I'm convinced that he does. I think he did something to Cnaiur in the last scene between them, the whole "healing his innumerable scars" and so on that's been pointed out. I'm not sure to what end though.I always thought that was a euphemism for a handjob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 Then I'll just go back to my original crackpot, which is that the Celmomian Prophecy (one of my seed will return) means that an actual sperm sample of Celmomas will return at the end of the world. Before he left Ishual, Moenghus took the sample with him and used it to impregnate Esmenet, who gave birth to Mimara. The whole Dunyain/Kellhus is just a red herring, they're not from Celmomas' seed. Hmm... What if Mimara turning out with the JE isn’t a coincidence? What if it was planned as part of TTT? Since TJE is the POV of the God or the Outside, maybe the way to create it is to give birth to someone using the sperm of a dying person? Since at that point their soul is already moving to the Outside. If that’s true then Seswatha must have known it. So when Celmomas is struck by a Sranc chieftain and is about to die, Seswatha takes him to the side, and ... let’s just say that he acquires a sperm sample from him (I don’t have the books anymore but I do recall something about “conserve your stength”, and eventually a “shudder” from Celmomas, the question is what kind of shudder was it?). Seswatha then hides it in Ishual. This way he hits two birds with one rock, he has the JE, which is necessary against the NG, and someone from Celmomas’ blood, which must have some magical properties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 I was just joking about the handjob thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maithanet Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 I like the idea that the Dunyain as a whole have conditioned both Moe and Kellhus, and that both of the "main" Dunyain of the series are actually making a lot of mistakes that they are blind to. It would fit with this overarching themes of the series. I agree that Mekeritrig just happening upon Kellhus strains credulity. Likewise Kellhus walking through hundreds of miles of sranc infested lands without being attacked. But the idea that the Consult is in on it, or even the unwitting dupes of the Dunyain, I dunno, it doesn't fit to me. The Dunyain obviously must have valued their secrecy, and the "who are the DUNYAIN?" scene says that the Consult is not in league with them. Some people have posited that Aurax and Aurang are just no longer important in the Consult, but I don't really like that idea either. So my idea is: what if Mekeritrig has changed sides again and has been spying on the Consult while actually working for the Dunyain? They could possibly have whelmed him in such a way that it would create a temporary respite from his erraticism. Even if that is not possible, memory is a fragile thing, and if they can't actually help Mek remember, they could make him think that he can - even if they're just inventing new memories, that is just as good. Mekeritrig would give the Dunyain a plant into the Consult hierarchy, would explain Mek's presence and Kellhus not running into any sranc, and would explain why the rest of the Consult is working against Kellhus throughout the entire story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokisnow Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 One thing last year's reread of tdtcb and twp created for me was the sense that we as readers are meant to interrogate and dissect kellhus with the same scrutiny and methods kellhus applies to all the other characters. We cannot fall into the trap of excluding kellhus from the same treatment otherwise it leaves a massive gap in our understanding of the series. Kellhus is just as human as anyone else, and his delusion of dunyain mastery actually makes his self deceptions greater and his mistakes all the more severe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 I'm not saying that the Consult is in league with the Dunyain; I'm saying they've been being manipulated for years just as much as everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 I'm not saying that the Consult is in league with the Dunyain; I'm saying they've been being manipulated for years just as much as everyone else. Who do you think is doing the manipulating? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 I don’t think the Dunyain are in league with anyone (that they know of), Consult or otherwise. It might be that they were being watched by someone, but I do believe that some of the things that we’ve been told about them are true - namely, that they think the world closed and know nothing of the Consult or magic and so on. And they especially have not conditioned the Consult to further their own goals.As for the Dunyain, they themselves destroyed their own historical records to better immunize themselves from their 'darkness riddled' past. As a result, no one knows what their original intentions might have been. It would appear that that last line applies to the Dunyain themselves as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 One thing last year's reread of tdtcb and twp created for me was the sense that we as readers are meant to interrogate and dissect kellhus with the same scrutiny and methods kellhus applies to all the other characters. We cannot fall into the trap of excluding kellhus from the same treatment otherwise it leaves a massive gap in our understanding of the series. Kellhus is just as human as anyone else, and his delusion of dunyain mastery actually makes his self deceptions greater and his mistakes all the more severe.I agree, and now that I've started my reread, that's exactly what I'm doing. I remember during my first read, before the circumfixion (sp?), I started to loath Kellhus extremely. I just hated everything about him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 Who do you think is doing the manipulating?The Dunyain, clearly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatúrinbor Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 If that's true then Seswatha must have known it. So when Celmomas is struck by a Sranc chieftain and is about to die, Seswatha takes him to the side, and ... let's just say that he acquires a sperm sample from him (I don't have the books anymore but I do recall something about "conserve your stength", and eventually a "shudder" from Celmomas, the question is what kind of shudder was it?). Seswatha then hides it in Ishual.+1Only problem I have with that is I think Celmomas was in Ishual in the prologue as some have speculated.-----Back to Moënghus, and Dûnyain delusions,"In this world," Moënghus said, "there's nothing more precious than our blood..."There is no Truth for the worldborn. They feed and they couple, cozening their hearts with false flatteries, easing their intellects with pathetic simplifications. The Logos, for them, is a tool of their lust, nothing more ... They excuse themselves and heap blame upon others. They glorify their people over other peoples, their nation over other nations. They focus their fears on the innocent. And when they hear words such as these, they recognize them-but as defects belonging to others.Anyone else think that Moe could not have sounded more deluded even if he wanted? He basically does exactly what he simultaneously accuses the worldborn of doing, and then ridiculously adds "when they hear words such as these, they recognize them-but as defects belonging to others." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bolivar Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 Yes but near that passage he also acknowledges that even the Dunyain, himself and Kellhus included, are also susceptible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 Anyone else think that Moe could not have sounded more deluded even if he wanted? He basically does exactly what he simultaneously accuses the worldborn of doing, and then ridiculously adds "when they hear words such as these, they recognize them-but as defects belonging to others." I think he was just trolling Kellhus. That passage was so blatant it reminded me of the "Awesome new author!" thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatúrinbor Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 I think he was just trolling Kellhus. That passage was so blatant it reminded me of the "Awesome new author!" thread.It's almost as if he's trying too hard to make a point.Well, we do know at least, via Bakker directly, that they were based in Sauglish, also were the Sohonc (Seswatha's School) was based. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokisnow Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 I think he was just trolling Kellhus. That passage was so blatant it reminded me of the "Awesome new author!" thread.Oh yes he is definitely trolling kellhus there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 Basically, that journey with that caveat is 100% impossible unless his path from Ishual to Leweth was conditioned. This is also the single most dangerous stage of his journey, since he is his most vulnerable, most childlike. Thinking about this I wonder how Moënghus survived the journey. We know that the Dunyain who received the dreams from Moe all killed themselves, so it stands to reason that no one remaining in Ishual after Kellhus left knew about the dreams or the real reasons why Kellhus disappeared, right? So what if thirty years before Kellhus left someone sent sorcerous dreams into Ishuäl asking the Dunyain to send to him his son, Moënghus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokisnow Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 Moenghus was found by the scylvendi with a herd of sranc they encountered.Presumably, moe encountered sranc, dominated them, and was part of their herd until they reached the utemot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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