kuenjato Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 Yeah can't see why Ishual would be any more of a Topos than a part of Momen or Carythusal that's had a long standing slave market or prison. Or an Imperial dungeon. Kind of frustrating that Bakker hasn't provided us with some hardcore figures on deaths(sin)/time/geographic area that produces the threshold value for topos creation. :P Wasn't there some mention in TJE about the length of time of the suffering? I don't have the book with me, but wasn't it mentioned the Cil-Aujas pens went on for thousands of years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 Wasn't there some mention in TJE about the length of time of the suffering? I don't have the book with me, but wasn't it mentioned the Cil-Aujas pens went on for thousands of years? I think your right, but then there's Megedda, which would have been an extremely short period by comparison. Which makes me want the proper topos equation stated in one of the appendices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kuenjato Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 I think your right, but then there's Megedda, which would have been an extremely short period by comparison. Which makes me want the proper topos equation stated in one of the appendices. The No-God 'died' there, so I think maybe extreme events like that may influence. Either long periods of suffering, or really traumatic disruptions to the fabric of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyCharms Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 Howdy guys and gals. I'm Hirtius/Pansa on the SA forums. I've made the transition to this forbidden zone. Because I'm a mercurial harlot. Something I noticed on a re-read of WLW. I figured that a "Patridomos" is just a Nansur equivalent of a singular Patriarch. The head of a specific household in the Congregate. Thallei Numemarius is referred to as "the Patridomos of House Thallei" a singular leader. And Biaxi Sompas father is also the singular Patridomos of his House. However, in WLW, the commander of the Nansur Columns in the GO is Biaxi Tarpellus referred to as "the Patridomos of House Biaxi" singular again. Yet, Biaxi Sankas, Esmenet's adviser in Momemn is referred to as "a Patridomos of House Biaxi." "A", as in one out of a group. So I'm curious, is a Patridomos just a military rank in a House that can be bestowed on many people or just one, or is this a continuity error I stumbled upon. Sorry to derail the thread with my pedantic observations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
profgrape Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 Yeah can't see why Ishual would be any more of a Topos than a part of Momen or Carythusal that's had a long standing slave market or prison. Or an Imperial dungeon. Kind of frustrating that Bakker hasn't provided us with some hardcore figures on deaths(sin)/time/geographic area that produces the threshold value for topos creation. :P Maybe 144,000 is the tipping point for that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 I don't think Ishual had enough suffering to become a Topos. It's just the defectives who suffer constantly and their only a couple of them. If to many Dunyain survived whatever happened at Ishual that will massively imbalance the story so I think by necessity there must be only a remnant or perhaps children. Ah that's a good point. It's emotion [iMO] that tears down the distinction between self & other, Inward & Outside. Wasn't there some mention in TJE about the length of time of the suffering? I don't have the book with me, but wasn't it mentioned the Cil-Aujas pens went on for thousands of years? But the final battle against the No-God during the First Apocalypse also produced a topos, so it's not necessarily a matter of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maithanet Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 Howdy guys and gals. I'm Hirtius/Pansa on the SA forums. I've made the transition to this forbidden zone. Because I'm a mercurial harlot. Welcome to the board! I am totally unable to help you with your question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 Kellhus was pretty shaken when he entered the forests beneath Ishual, and said things like "how could water taste sweet," "how could sunlight--" and so on because "what comes before blah blah". For the Dunyain, a topos would’ve been hard to explain and harder to reconcile with their philosophy, which is why I assume Kellhus did not experience a topos before leaving Ishual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 LuckyCharms - why not ask Bakker directly on his blog or via twitter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Buck Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 But the final battle against the No-God during the First Apocalypse also produced a topos, so it's not necessarily a matter of time. I'm not sure the two can be compared. The topos seems to have formed from the death of the No-God rather than the battle itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 The point that it’s not a matter of time still stands though. Unless the No-God itself involves some time shenanigans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kuenjato Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 The point that it’s not a matter of time still stands though. Unless the No-God itself involves some time shenanigans. Time in that it pertains to the amount of suffering. Which is why your average slave market doesn't qualify, but Cil-Aujas does. And/or a concentration of suffering, as the No-God would certainly be a nexus of suffering. I think concentration is the key here, whether it be over a long period of time or a singular entity/event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 Time in that it pertains to the amount of suffering. Which is why your average slave market doesn't qualify, but Cil-Aujas does. And/or a concentration of suffering, as the No-God would certainly be a nexus of suffering. I think concentration is the key here, whether it be over a long period of time or a singular entity/event.I agree. And I was thinking on this, doesn't Akka explain it to Esement while in Meggeda? Haven't had time to look it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 Time in that it pertains to the amount of suffering. Which is why your average slave market doesn't qualify, but Cil-Aujas does. And/or a concentration of suffering, as the No-God would certainly be a nexus of suffering. I think concentration is the key here, whether it be over a long period of time or a singular entity/event. Perhaps, if all is within the Dream of God, which Bakker suggests is made up of warring collections of thoughts, topoi represent madness corrupting certain eddies of thought that make up the Inward. So there isn't a mechanistic formula, but rather pressure put upon souls that dissolves the boundary between Outside and Inward. As Akka noted, madness is when the Outside that makes up a soul spills out into the Inward. If this spillage is enough to permanently "soak" into the onta this would break down the boundary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 @sci, so its basically a bunch of madness went down in that spot. Wether it be for an extended period of time or something that happens basically instantaneously. Like the death of the No-God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 @sci, so its basically a bunch of madness went down in that spot. Wether it be for an extended period of time or something that happens basically instantaneously. Like the death of the No-God. Yeah, I think when enough people snap the extent of their break down is what makes a topos. It's a fundamental change to the onta that apparently can't be completely reversed. (Though perhaps Mimara could heal such breaches completely?) eta: We could compare the slave pits of the Nonmen to rain soaking a paper grocery bag until the contents fall out the bottom, and the No God dying - and the other horrors of that battle - to a tsunami. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kuenjato Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 Bakker posted his first or one of his first maps of Earwa on his blog. Interesting to see what names have remained canon. And that the mysterious 'rings' from the digital map on his website appear below 'Gansabor' and in the lower right hand corner - I know this has been speculated on over at the Second Apocalypse forum. WHAT CAN IT MEAN??? Wish he'd post an update on the book... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 He’s already made too updates where he says that nothing has happened yet. I’d say he should off until he has actual news and people should stop asking him for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 As far as the Dunyain Feminine reveal, I think it gonna be nothing more than the Blood line of Esement. That Kellhus isn't the fufillment of the prophecy. Because, as others have pointed out, the Anasurimbor in the prologue is a bastard. My beliefnis Mimara is the fulfillment of that prophecy. I wonder if this really matters. He was a prince still. And there’s no indication that bastards in Eärwa get alternate names like Snow or stone or what have you. It’s not a soap-opera. Either way, in my view, the important words in the Celmomian prophecy are "one of my seed" and not "an Anasûrimbor", because the former supersedes the latter, which was probably Celmomas’ take on the "one of your seed." In other words, if you’re of Celmomas' seed, then I doubt it matters whether you carry the name Anasûrimbor officially or not. Another thing is that I saw someone mention in a previous thread here (or on TSA forum) that Ganrelka (the bastard’s father) could not have been Celmomas’ son because Nau-Cayûti (who’s younger than Ganrelka) was "heir to Trysë". In other words, Kellhus could not be descended from Celmomas’ seed bastard or not. But there was no discussion or response to this as far as I can tell. I’d like to know what others think about this. Does the bastard thing matter? And does the ‘heir to Trysë’ mean that Kellhus could not be of Cel’s line? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted November 17, 2014 Share Posted November 17, 2014 I wonder if this really matters. He was a prince still. And theres no indication that bastards in Eärwa get alternate names like Snow or stone or what have you. Its not a soap-opera. Either way, in my view, the important words in the Celmomian prophecy are "one of my seed" and not "an Anasûrimbor", because the former supersedes the latter, which was probably Celmomas take on the "one of your seed." In other words, if youre of Celmomas' seed, then I doubt it matters whether you carry the name Anasûrimbor officially or not. Another thing is that I saw someone mention in a previous thread here (or on TSA forum) that Ganrelka (the bastards father) could not have been Celmomas son because Nau-Cayûti (whos younger than Ganrelka) was "heir to Trysë". In other words, Kellhus could not be descended from Celmomas seed bastard or not. But there was no discussion or response to this as far as I can tell. Id like to know what others think about this. Does the bastard thing matter? And does the heir to Trysë mean that Kellhus could not be of Cels line?I mean I guess your right in that it doesn't matter if he's from a bastard or not since like you said it just says " seed" in the prophecy. But, I don't put much stock in the prophecy. I think its ambiguous for a reason. And what you say about Kellhus not even being a Anasurimbor, I could definitely see that being true. I think we're in for a huge twist in TUC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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