Tywin Lannister, OMG may not be that bad afterall

[Chilli]

I was also glad to hear in a recent interview that Elio & Linda pretty much put an end to Jamie & Cersei being a Targaryen. I never subscribed to that theory.

What interview? Did they also say something about Tyrion?

[Elessar]

Nope. Tywin is still a total shitbag. Just that now we understand more of why... Doesn't excuse a lot of the stuff he did, but it explains how a moron could still like the guy (jokes).

I actually did find I had more sympathy for him after this book.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Nope. Tywin is still a total shitbag. Just that now we understand more of why... Doesn't excuse a lot of the stuff he did, but it explains how a moron could still like the guy (jokes).

I actually did find I had more sympathy for him after this book.

I feel the exact same way, still a douche, but gets a tiny bit more sympathy from me.

[Panther2000]

What interview? Did they also say something about Tyrion?

It was at Podcast of Ice and Fire.

And, no they did not say anything about Tyrion. I thought that strange that the mentioned the Crakpot theory of Jamie & Cersei however, never even mentioned tyrion.

[The Wolves]

I actually did find I had more sympathy for him after this book.

I don't see how anybody could have any sympathy for him when after everything he did he never answered for the rape and murder of a woman and her children, he never answered for the sack of Kings Landing when he and his men had raped and murdered innocent men, women, and children. After everything Tywin still managed to stay on top rich, powerful, feared, all his children alive, his grandchildren were kings and his house controlled the crown/country etc.... yet someone tell me why he is deserving of any human emotion beyond hatred, disgust, and contempt?

[Elessar]

Did you read this book?

If you did, I don't understand how you can ask the question? It's quite easy to see why someone would have a bit of sympathy for him.

But he's still a shitbag.

[Panther2000]

Nope. Tywin is still a total shitbag. Just that now we understand more of why... Doesn't excuse a lot of the stuff he did, but it explains how a moron could still like the guy (jokes).

I actually did find I had more sympathy for him after this book.

Same here, I won't excuse what he did in the past regarding the children.

I just, think no matter what Twyin did to keep the peace & have the country thrive. The King took it as a slight toward him & A threat that twyin was trying to take power.

I wonder if The King was Bi-polar, sounds like it. When he was up he was up & then they said that he could turn in a second. There was mental illness there, and it does run in the family.

I still don't like him, but I do get him more now.

[The Wolves]

Did you read this book?

If you did, I don't understand how you can ask the question? It's quite easy to see why someone would have a bit of sympathy for him.

But he's still a shitbag.

There is nothing to really sympathize with him with he's a monster, all Tywin suffered is a few words and small insults from Aerys and his father being made a fool of all this is very small in how he brought about death and destruction to others and their families.

And I refuse the I take the word of a maester who refuses to give Tywin his due and put in the book how he ordered a princess of Dorne and her babies murdered which resulted in Elia getting raped, Rhaenys 3yrs old getting stabbed a bunch of times and Aegon a baby getting his head smashed in, the biasness is strong in this book towards the Lannisters. So excuse me if I don't think Tywin a complete monster is not deserving of sympathy with or without the world book to point out how the slights he was dealt is very small in what people have suffered and what he have done to others.

[marsyao]

And I refuse the I take the word of a maester who refuses to give Tywin his due and put in the book how he ordered a princess of Dorne and her babies murdered which resulted in Elia getting raped, Rhaenys 3yrs old getting stabbed a bunch of times and Aegon a baby getting his head smashed in, the biasness is strong in this book towards the Lannisters. So excuse me if I don't think Tywin a complete monster is not deserving of sympathy with or without the world book to point out how the slights he was dealt is very small in what people have suffered and what he have done to others.

What can I say? When a baby was born in a royal house, he or she would have many priviliges even a great Lords would never enjoy, but on the other hand when thing went wrong, he or she would have to pay a price even a poorest peasant would not have to pay. Everyone, from Highborn to lowborn live in that world would understand these two little children must die, though I agree this could be done in a much nicer way, for example using a pillow.

[The Wolves]

What can I say? When a baby was born in a royal house, he or she would have many priviliges even a great Lords would never enjoy, but on the other hand when thing went wrong, he or she would have to pay a price even a poorest peasant would not have to pay. Everyone, from Highborn to lowborn live in that world would understand these two little children must die, though I agree this could be done in a much nicer way, for example using a pillow.

It's just that everybody knows Tywin ordered those kids murdered yet the maester throws out some BS saying Elia probably killed her self, ugh hate!!

Like I said the Maester is straight up biased and Tywin is painted in a very good light in this book I didn't even see the sack mentioned yet I'm suppose to believe he was the victim of Aerys and all this info about Aerys and Tywin is probably coming from Pycelle Tywin's main b!tch.

I'm not saying none of it could be true but I'm not taking it as gospel and I hate Tywin so yeah my biasness is probably playing a part.

[marsyao]

It's just that everybody knows Tywin ordered those kids murdered yet the maester throws out some BS saying Elia probably killed her self, ugh hate!!

Like I said the Maester is straight up biased and Tywin is painted in a very good light in this book I didn't even see the sack mentioned yet I'm suppose to believe he was the victim of Aerys and all this info about Aerys and Tywin is probably coming from Pycelle Tywin's main b!tch.

I'm not saying none of it could be true but I'm not taking it as gospel and I hate Tywin so yeah my biasness is probably playing a part.

Of course, everybody know it was Tywin gave the order to kill these two little children, but Tywin did not mean to kill them in that way, it was the brutality of the mountain and Locke, and that unecessary atoricty did lot of damage to Tywin's reputation.

[The Wolves]

Of course, everybody know it was Tywin gave the order to kill these two little children, but Tywin did not mean to kill them in that way, it was the brutality of the mountain and Locke, and that unecessary atoricty did lot of damage to Tywin's reputation.

Having two babies murdered did a lot of damage to Tywin's reputation, he's happy to order atrocities like that done but like to distance himself away from it blaming it on the Mountain and Amory trying to act like he has honor but in reality is a monster.

[marsyao]

Having two babies murdered did a lot of damage to Tywin's reputation, he's happy to order atrocities like that done but like to distance himself away from it blaming it on the Mountain and Amory trying to act like he has honor but in reality is a monster.

No, having two babies who are potential heirs of the throne murdered is a legit action not a crime, people may not like it, but would understand it, but by killing that this way is an atrocity pure and clear, it would be much better if, as Tywin told Tyrion, these two babies were kiilled in a gentle way, such as using a pillow or even a rope

[Talleyrand]

Never thought Tywin was that bad to begin with. The guy does what he has to. He and Kevan were the heroes that Westeros deserves.

Does what he has to do? He had Tysha gang-raped to teach Tyrion a lesson, I'm not even remotely sure how that can be claimed to be pragmatism or anything of the sort.

[(f)Aegon (f)orever]

It's just that everybody knows Tywin ordered those kids murdered yet the maester throws out some BS saying Elia probably killed her self, ugh hate!!

Like I said the Maester is straight up biased and Tywin is painted in a very good light in this book I didn't even see the sack mentioned yet I'm suppose to believe he was the victim of Aerys and all this info about Aerys and Tywin is probably coming from Pycelle Tywin's main b!tch.

:agree:

This was all I could think of when I was reading this section of the book. It was so blatently biased in the favour of Baratheon/Lannister. But the victors write the histories, so I don't know if we will ever truly have an understanding of what took place during the sack from a Targ perspective.

[H.P.]

No, having two babies who are potential heirs of the throne murdered is a legit action not a crime, people may not like it, but would understand it, but by killing that this way is an atrocity pure and clear, it would be much better if, as Tywin told Tyrion, these two babies were kiilled in a gentle way, such as using a pillow or even a rope

Using a pillow or a rope would suffocate them, which is a pretty terrible way to die. Didn't these kids die from being smashed into a wall? That seems more quick and painless , and therefore more humane, to me.

[DMC]

I agree that the book added much complexity to Tywin's character, he's really the star if there is one, but I would call it added respect rather than sympathy. His methods are inarguably and consistently unsympathetic. But the fact he continued to rule ably, and likely unwillingly, despite the clear ridicule inflicted upon him by Aerys is a testament to a certain aspect of his character, if you're able to compartmentalize his monstrosities. Actually, it provides another parallel and layer of irony to him and Tyrion - Aerys as the only possible 'father' figure Tywin would accept after 267 given his atheist tendencies. You can write this off as clear Pycelle/Tommon bias, but I found a lot of the details added to explain the backstory of RR in quite a logical way.

[complexphoenix]

TWOIAF has made my opinion of Tywin much worse, not better. The war against the Reynes and Tarbecks was not what I used to think; Tywin deliberately provoked them and then mustered massively superior numbers to slaughter them without giving them any opportunity to yield or negotiate. It was not a justified or legitimate war, it was premeditated murder.

As for all the shit he had to put up with from Aerys: the narrative is slanted because the maester is writing for Robert and his half-Lannister sons. The bias is obvious in the sections on Robert's Rebellion and "The Glorious Reign"; it's not as obvious in the "Aerys II" section, but once you know to look for it, it becomes apparent. Aerys is never given credit for anything except the decision to appoint Tywin Hand; everything that went right in his reign is attributed to Tywin, everything that went wrong is blamed on Aerys. Rhaegar is never praised except to note that he was a great warrior, which is really just to pump the reputation of the man who slew him. Everything bad about Aerys' character, both before and after he went mad, is described in detail; the only virtues the maester acknowledges are those absolutely necessary to make sense of the narrative, and even those are downplayed. Chances are, there's a lot of stuff that the maester left out that would make Aerys seem more sympathetic and Tywin less so.

Tywin is portrayed as a complete victim of Aerys' caprice, as if he was unable to defend himself against all the lickspittles ganging up and being mean to him, and soldiered on out of noble duty without giving any provocations back. I doubt Tywin's situation was really as bad as the maester makes it out to be, although there is undoubtedly plenty of truth to the account, I believe it is exaggerated. As much as he could without being directly insubordinate, Tywin probably gave as good as he got. Cersei recalls at one point that Tywin could cow those who mocked him just by staring at them, as I recall.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

I agree that the book added much complexity to Tywin's character, he's really the star if there is one, but I would call it added respect rather than sympathy. His methods are inarguably and consistently unsympathetic. But the fact he continued to rule ably, and likely unwillingly, despite the clear ridicule inflicted upon him by Aerys is a testament to a certain aspect of his character, if you're able to compartmentalize his monstrosities. Actually, it provides another parallel and layer of irony to him and Tyrion - Aerys as the only possible 'father' figure Tywin would accept after 267 given his atheist tendencies. You can write this off as clear Pycelle/Tommon bias, but I found a lot of the details added to explain the backstory of RR in quite a logical way.

Agreed, there may be some flowery language with regard to Tywin, I think the facts are what they are. There were no lies or inaccuracies being put forth. I loved how he waited until he and his brothers were battle-hardened from the Stepstones before he began to assume control. It says a lot about his character that went out and earned it, and not just have it handed to him.

TWOIAF has made my opinion of Tywin much worse, not better. The war against the Reynes and Tarbecks was not what I used to think; Tywin deliberately provoked them and then mustered massively superior numbers to slaughter them without giving them any opportunity to yield or negotiate. It was not a justified or legitimate war, it was premeditated murder.

Banner houses are your vassals, not your friends. The Reyens and Tarbecks had lost all respect for the Lannisters and were showing it. The Reynes flat out refused to repay their debts to their liege lords and urged others to do the same. If Tywin had not struck first, the Reynes and Tarbecks eventually would have.

[Lord Damian]

Tywin had every reason to hate Aerys, everyone did but it was Tywin's actions, deliberate actions against innocents and others that make him the asshole he is known to be.