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Panther2000

Tywin Lannister, OMG may not be that bad afterall

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The man really had to put up with a lot. To have your friend turn on you like that. Not only did he ( The King) bully him, he got the council & other lords to join in. They made sport of making this guy feel low. Tywin was protecting & making The Kings rule a success, and the king took pleasure in under minding him, undoing the things that twyin put in place and then telling the Kingdom that it was it was Tywin's doing. & the Kicker was that he would then put back in place the laws that Tywin created & took the credit for it.



The few frineds that Twyin did have soon turned on him in fear of the King. Meanwhile, the king was flying off the rails even quicker. Still twyin said and did nothing against the king. & I think this only made the King go even farther.



Not, to mention the mess with Jamie.



Tywin at any time could have killed The King & took crown for himself. For me this puts Tywin in a different light. I also, knew that that there was another side to him. All the mess that The King did along with so many others. I still hate how he treats Tyrion. Out of all of his kids, it is Tyrion that is most like him, and he knows it. I still hate what he did with Rob & the Red Wedding, but my hate is a little less.



I do think that in the end Tywin was glad to see Joffrey go, he has been down that road before with a Mad King, & I am pretty sure he did not want to go down that road again. Because once Joffrey came of age there would be no stopping him, and Tywin once again would be a Hand with no power.



I was also glad to hear in a recent interview that Elio & Linda pretty much put an end to Jamie & Cersei being a Targaryen. I never subscribed to that theory.


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It's not that I don't still think that Tywin was a bad man I just find his actions in general now to be a lot more understandable.



He's still an asshole but there are reasons he became that way. It's no excuse for the horrible things that he ended up doing in his life but after reading the info in TWOIAF I find myself feeling as though I get him a lot more now.



Aerys was basically the worst boss ever. Just a total douchebag.


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IMO the "Game of Thrones" has no good guy or Bad guy, there are those you like and those you don't like. I don't like Tywin but I understand him completely. I did what was best for his house and they prospered. He was a very strong, but ugly pillar that held everyone craziness together. as soon as he died, Chaos.


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Really?

I can understand Tywin putting down the Reyne and Tarbecks because they were rebelling and causing chaos in the west with their actions. Though he took it too far when he killed all the innocent men, women and children whose only crime was serving their liege lords. Tywin is a mass murderer and a monster.

Even if Aerys did all that was said of him in the world book(and I say IF hugely because the Maester is obviously very biased in the Lannister's favor especially Tywin's)that still gives Tywin no right to sick a child murdering little freak and 7ft tall unstable sadistic monster on a fragile woman and her babies. Aerys couldn't have said or done anything for his grandchildren or daughter-in-law to have suffered and died the way they did.

Tywin is a mass murderer, a mysoginistic, a inhumane oppressor, and down right evil he had a child raped by probably a bunch of violent war hardened soldiers than walked his father's mistress across a city nekid just to strip her of her power. Tywin is a sadistic fuck who brought the world nothing but violence, rape, murder, Gregor Clegan, Jaime and Cersei, and just anarchy.

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What's harder for me to understand about Tywin is his attitude towards his children. In particular I think he really dropped the ball with Cersei in terms of not teaching her anything useful so that she would have a better chance of not screwing things up for the family in the future.



I also don't understand why he seems to have been so minimally involved in Joffrey, the future king's life until after Robert died. You'd think he would have wanted to be all over influencing that kid but for whatever reason he didn't try to make his mark on Joffrey until he came back to KL and started acting as Hand again.



As far as his blindness regarding the incest, this is something where I'm really not sure exactly what he should have done to stop Jaime and Cersei. If it was a situation where he had a deal with Robert to eventually have Jaime released from the KG why did it never happen? Presumably, Tywin brought it up on more than one occasion but I'm guessing Jaime would refuse by hiding around the idea that he didn't want to be even more of an oathbreaker than he already is. What could Tywin have done with Cersei without making people suspicious? The only thing he could really do is cut off their money supply but again, a bunch of questions would be raised and it seems like a situation like that could easily get messy.




Tywin is a mass murderer, a mysoginistic, a inhumane oppressor, and down right evil he had a child raped by probably a bunch of violent war hardened soldiers than walked his father's mistress across a city nekid just to strip her of her power. Tywin is a sadistic fuck who brought the world nothing but violence, rape, murder, Gregor Clegan, Jaime and Cersei, and just anarchy.





I don't know about anarchy but I agree with the rest of this.

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Some have pointed out the Lannister bias, as much of the information comes from Grand Maester Pycelle, and Yandel is writing this specifically for Tommen, but work simply goes into detail about what Tywin actually had to endure. There may be some perfume sprinkled in here and there, but I think underlying facts are accurate. I will never approve his naked brutality, but I do understand him more.



Lord Tytos’ weakness was beyond-the-pale. Tywin had to restore order for the very survival of his house and the good of the realm. Targaryen Kings had to send their own troops into the Westerlands to restore order. Under Tytos, the West was indeed the “Wild Wild West” of old here in America, home to outlaws and brigands. You had two powerful vassals that simply lost all respect for their liege lords, and had joined forces to eventually replace them. Tywin had to act, and act as he did, IMO (aside from the murder of women and children). A message was sent and received to the rest Westerlands, as well as the rest of the realm.



Aerys Targaryen was a nightmare. He turned from a close childhood friend, into Tywin’s worst nightmare. He endured countless slights to himself, his honor, and the honor of his beloved wife. The rejection of Cersei for no other reason than spite, the sabotage of his political works, and the taking of his prized heir were more than anyone should have to bear. His biggest mistake was not letting Aerys die in Duskendale, or seeing to it that he did.



What Tywin did in later years is deplorable and unforgivable, but I do hate him less and respect him even more.


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^I was thinking about something totally different when I was typing "anarchy" my bad.

Aerys probably had a good reason not to want his child married to Tywin's spawn.

I will say that Aerys not having the Lannister's marry into the royal family was the best decisions he's ever made. Cersei was always a corrupt piece of work and Tywin is evil why would he want his name and blood tainted with that monstrosity.

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Aerys Targaryen was a nightmare. He turned from a close childhood friend, into Tywin’s worst nightmare. He endured countless slights to himself, his honor, and the honor of his beloved wife. The rejection of Cersei for no other reason than spite, the sabotage of his political works, and the taking of his prized heir were more than anyone should have to bear. His biggest mistake was not letting Aerys die in Duskendale, or seeing to it that he did.

I think Aerys really was the worst and it had to have been doubly hard for Tywin since they'd been long time friends. I agree too that it was probably a mistake to not simply let him die in Duskendale.

I will say that Aerys not having the Lannister's marry into the royal family was the best decisions he's ever made. Cersei was always a corrupt piece of work and Tywin is evil why would he want his name and blood tainted with that monstrosity.

I personally doubt that Aerys would have had any idea about what sort of person Cersei was or would turn out to be. Kevan Lannister's impressions of young Cersei seem to be very positive and I'd be willing to bet that she'd be on her best behavior in front of the royal family.

In any case if Aerys hadn't rejected Cersei as a wife for Rhaegar then Tywin would never have turned on him during the end of the rebellion.

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I personally doubt that Aerys would have had any idea about what sort of person Cersei was or would turn out to be. Kevan Lannister's impressions of young Cersei seem to be very positive and I'd be willing to bet that she'd be on her best behavior in front of the royal family.

In any case if Aerys hadn't rejected Cersei as a wife for Rhaegar then Tywin would never have turned on him during the end of the rebellion.

This. I trust Kevan’s impressions of a young Cersei in ADWD, and fully believe that the girl that she was, is not the woman she turned into.

Additionally, Cersei truly loved Rhaegar, and loves him still, as we found out in AFFC. Just as Tywin had not completely turned to the dark side. In many ways the Lannisters seemed to be infected by Aerys’ madness. Not brining Tywin into the royal fold was terrible mistake, and ultimately the downfall of House Targaryen.

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I think Aerys really was the worst and it had to have been d

I personally doubt that Aerys would have had any idea about what sort of person Cersei was or would turn out to be. Kevan Lannister's impressions of young Cersei seem to be very positive and I'd be willing to bet that she'd be on her best behavior in front of the royal family.

In any case if Aerys hadn't rejected Cersei as a wife for Rhaegar then Tywin would never have turned on him during the end of the rebellion.

Yes Tywin would have still turned on Aerys.

Rhaegar would have still took Lyanna and Tywin seeing a chance to have his grandchildren inherit would have still taken out Aerys and Rhaegar and Lyanna and her child too if he knew she had a baby with Rhaegar.

Tywin is a monster he's not above anything as we see in ASOIAF. And Aerys saw inside Cersei's soul he knew anything Tywin spawned would not be good and should not marry into his family or breed with his heir. Aerys knew that Tywin and his were not worthy to marry into the royally family and they weren't that's why they married into a usurped bastard family that at the end of it all is not worthy.

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I gained a lot of respect for Tywin after reading about his generation, and how he had to fight to gain back Western respect for House Lannister. He saw from an early age that people were taking advantage of his feeble father, and after being hardened by war (as did Kevan and Tygett), he came back West and dealt with his father's unruly bannerman. I found myself rooting for Tywin when he marched against House Tarbeck and Reyne.



We weren't entirely privy to all of this information before the world book, and it has changed my perception of Tywin. This series is all about character development, and as Jaime and Theon change throughout the series due to situations they were in, Tywin's character changed as well due to things that happened to him (dealing with unruly bannerman, people taking advantage of his father, his wife's death, Aerys placing Jaime in the KG). Yeah he's made harsh and even cruel decisions in his life, but it all falls back on things that have happened to him, and not wanting his family to be looked upon as weak like it was when he was a child. I'm not saying I all of a sudden love Tywin, but I certainly understand some of his decisions now, even if I don't agree with them.


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Cersei has always been evil. The story of Tyrion as a baby that Obern tells is an example. Another is that she kills her friend after she visits the magi.

And not only that Rhaegar would have still ran off with Lyanna probably getting her pregnant and Cersei would have still slept with Jaime throughout her marriage thae exactly why he became a Kingsguard member.

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Really?

I can understand Tywin putting down the Reyne and Tarbecks because they were rebelling and causing chaos in the west with their actions. Though he took it too far when he killed all the innocent men, women and children whose only crime was serving their liege lords. Tywin is a mass murderer and a monster.

Even if Aerys did all that was said of him in the world book(and I say IF hugely because the Maester is obviously very biased in the Lannister's favor especially Tywin's)that still gives Tywin no right to sick a child murdering little freak and 7ft tall unstable sadistic monster on a fragile woman and her babies. Aerys couldn't have said or done anything for his grandchildren or daughter-in-law to have suffered and died the way they did.

Tywin is a mass murderer, a mysoginistic, a inhumane oppressor, and down right evil he had a child raped by probably a bunch of violent war hardened soldiers than walked his father's mistress across a city nekid just to strip her of her power. Tywin is a sadistic fuck who brought the world nothing but violence, rape, murder, Gregor Clegan, Jaime and Cersei, and just anarchy.

1. No, Tywin is feudal lord. And he didn't kill the Tarbeck women, and in regards to the Reynes both them and the Tarbecks refused to surrender but I suppose that you "forgot" about that detail

2. You think that a guy called "the Mad King" who is held in contempt by everyone who has heard of him wouldn't have a character of...madness? I think that its interesting that you probably wouldn't doubt that Aerys horribly murdered the Starks and their companions, but at the same time can't imagine the same person slighting a character you don't like.

3. Who dies in war has about nothing to do with right and everything to do with might and luck. The Targ kids had to go and so they died, that's the price of crowning a new king.

4. He, he's not a mass murderer, he's a general. Would you call Spaatz a mass-murderer?

Very possibly misogynistic as the society he was raised and lived in is misogynistic

He is perfectly human I can assure you

He is not a sadist, because he does to our knowledge not derive pleasure from hurting others

He brought the West peace, he brough Westeros prosperity and peace and he helped to bring Tyrion into the world for a start

He did not bring Gregor Clegane into the world and Jaime and Cersei have, contrary to your belief, a will of their own

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^I was thinking about something totally different when I was typing "anarchy" my bad.

Aerys probably had a good reason not to want his child married to Tywin's spawn.

I will say that Aerys not having the Lannister's marry into the royal family was the best decisions he's ever made. Cersei was always a corrupt piece of work and Tywin is evil why would he want his name and blood tainted with that monstrosity.

The blood that made Maegor the Cruel, Aegon IV, and Aerys II would be worried about taint? Actually not marrying into the Lannisters was the worst decision he made as he directly led to his death and the fall of his dynasty.

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Actually not marrying into the Lannisters was the worst decision he made as he directly led to his death and the fall of his dynasty.

How?

By turning Tywin against him? He was losing the war before Tywin turned against him, in fact that's why Tywin turned against him anyway. And even in terms of turning Tywin against him, that can only be said to have led to those things very indirectly. And the thing that alienated Tywin the most was actually taking Jaime into the Kingsguard.

Clearly, his worst decision and what directly led to his death and the fall of his dynasty was to kill Lord Rickon, Brandon Stark and others and demand the deaths of Ned and Robert from Jon Arryn.

And what most directly led to his death and the destruction of the rest of his family was 1) opening the gates for Tywin and 2) wanting to burn King's Landing.

Not marrying into the Lannisters isn't even in the top 10 of his worst decisions.

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The blood that made Maegor the Cruel, Aegon IV, and Aerys II would be worried about taint? Actually not marrying into the Lannisters was the worst decision he made as he directly led to his death and the fall of his dynasty.

That's a really good point. If he had married Rhaegar to Cersei many things would have gone differently for him. Namely, TYwin would have been on his side when he came to KL.....would have made the BIGGEST difference in the world to Aerys and to all of House Targaryen.....LOL, Aerys was such an idiot.

I mean even after everything that happened between him and Joanna, Tyrion probably being Aerys' son, and Tywin still came to Aerys to offer his beautiful daughter, whom Aerys had been jealous of when they were born. Tywin was showing a lot of humility by offering this match (and it was obviously a well known potential match), and Aerys still denied him. What an IDIOT!

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I never thought that Tywin was a bad person

So, after I have ordered the mass rape of my son's wife... what else do I have to do to be a bad person in your book?

Very possibly misogynistic as the society he was raised and lived in is misogynistic

He is not a sadist, because he does to our knowledge not derive pleasure from hurting others

He brought the West peace, he brough Westeros prosperity and peace and he helped to bring Tyrion into the world for a start

He did not bring Gregor Clegane into the world and Jaime and Cersei have, contrary to your belief, a will of their own

  • The "society" we live on is hardly an excuse. In this same socieaty we've seen Lord Tarth rising Brienne, Lord Eddard rising Sansa and Arya, Maege rising her daughters, Mace rising Margaery or even Balon rising Asha.

Genna tells us that he smiled when he killed Lady Tarbeck. He took pleasure in what he did.

Tywin brought peace to the realm... when it suited his needs. But when it benefited him otherwise, he gave us the Sack of King's Landing and the War of the Five Kings.

He did not bring Gregor into the world, but put him in a position of power that allowed him to perform his cruel acts. He could claim ignorance about what kind of man he was when he sent him to Elia Martell, but years later, when he put him in front of his Riverlands contingement, he knew exactly what he was doing.

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