Tywin Lannister, OMG may not be that bad afterall

[thelittledragonthatcould]

So fcol, Ned's account is perfectly accurate, but he was not there when Tywin ordered the sack a

Provide some quotes otherwise it is still your opinion vs Neds.

[Lion of the West]

No, there was little to no army in KL when Tywin arrived. That's why they call it the sack of King's Landing, not the battle of King's Landing. If Aerys had a huge army either inside or outside the city, why would he open the gates to Tywin? He would have told him to camp outside and prepare for battle. Why would a standing army in KL simply allow Tywin's forces to light the city on fire? That's where their wives and children were.

There is no mention of any soldiers or battles of any kind at the time because there was no army there. Virtually everyone who could wield a sword marched north with Rhaegar.

No. Just because they call something a Sack and not a Battle does not mean there were not soldiers on both sides around.

1. Because he thought that Tywin had come to save him and after the Trident Aerys was in sore need of men to balance the rebel alliance.

2. Because it would have been a "fuck you!" to what he thought to be allies?

3. They didn't allow anything, the Westermen did it without permission.

4. There's the quote of Ned that there were thousands of loyalists who had taken refuge in King's Landing

5. There is a mention of a battle, its called "the Sack" where the last loyalist resistance was broken

[Hangover of the Morning]

TWOIAF has made my opinion of Tywin much worse, not better. The war against the Reynes and Tarbecks was not what I used to think; Tywin deliberately provoked them and then mustered massively superior numbers to slaughter them without giving them any opportunity to yield or negotiate. It was not a justified or legitimate war, it was premeditated murder.

As for all the shit he had to put up with from Aerys: the narrative is slanted because the maester is writing for Robert and his half-Lannister sons. The bias is obvious in the sections on Robert's Rebellion and "The Glorious Reign"; it's not as obvious in the "Aerys II" section, but once you know to look for it, it becomes apparent. Aerys is never given credit for anything except the decision to appoint Tywin Hand; everything that went right in his reign is attributed to Tywin, everything that went wrong is blamed on Aerys. Rhaegar is never praised except to note that he was a great warrior, which is really just to pump the reputation of the man who slew him. Everything bad about Aerys' character, both before and after he went mad, is described in detail; the only virtues the maester acknowledges are those absolutely necessary to make sense of the narrative, and even those are downplayed. Chances are, there's a lot of stuff that the maester left out that would make Aerys seem more sympathetic and Tywin less so.

Tywin is portrayed as a complete victim of Aerys' caprice, as if he was unable to defend himself against all the lickspittles ganging up and being mean to him, and soldiered on out of noble duty without giving any provocations back. I doubt Tywin's situation was really as bad as the maester makes it out to be, although there is undoubtedly plenty of truth to the account, I believe it is exaggerated. As much as he could without being directly insubordinate, Tywin probably gave as good as he got. Cersei recalls at one point that Tywin could cow those who mocked him just by staring at them, as I recall.

:agree:

That's almost exactly my perception of the chapters. Well said, ser. Tywin is a complex characters and has some admirable qualities but I definitely didn't feel any more sympathy towards him after reading the World book. Pycell's Yandel's bias is blatantly obvious.

[John Suburbs]

Provide some quotes otherwise it is still your opinion vs Neds.

Lol, provide a quote to something that did not happen. Funny. I give you Jaime, who was in the RK the whole time and not one of his POVs ever mentions a plot to lure Tywin into the city and then betray him. Nothing about shoring up the defenses of the keep before the gates were open. Nothing out of the ordinary until the sack was underway and Aerys told Jaime to bring has father's head. What he does say is that Tywin spent the entire war brooding over the wrongs he'd gotten from Aerys and that the Trident made him decide who the winning side was.

Provide me with any logical explanation as to how Ned knew there were thousands of soldiers in the RK when he was miles from the city marching down the King's Road.

No. Just because they call something a Sack and not a Battle does not mean there were not soldiers on both sides around.

1. Because he thought that Tywin had come to save him and after the Trident Aerys was in sore need of men to balance the rebel alliance.

2. Because it would have been a "fuck you!" to what he thought to be allies?

3. They didn't allow anything, the Westermen did it without permission.

4. There's the quote of Ned that there were thousands of loyalists who had taken refuge in King's Landing

5. There is a mention of a battle, its called "the Sack" where the last loyalist resistance was broken

1. Exactly, Aerys thought Tywin was here to save him. Why would Aerys attack first, knowing that even if he destroyed Tywin, Ned was only a few miles up the road?

2. Again, proving my point for me. Without Tywin, Aerys had no hope, so why try to destroy your only chance?

3. The westerman marched peacefully through the gate and took up positions on the wall, the towers and anywhere else they needed to be to secure the city. What would then cause them to run amok in the city without expressed orders from the top? Even Tyrion's wildmen didn't do that.

4. As I've mentioned ad nausum, Ned showed up after the sack was already underway, so of course there were loyalists in the RK because that was the only safe place to be. And if all Tywin needed was to take the RK in order to win, why on earth would he let his army loose in the city? They should have all been attacking the keep. Seriously, you all make Tywin out to be an abject, bumbling idiot.

5. No, they called it the sack because that's what it was. A few thousand resisters in the Red Keep and that gives Tywin leave to burn the city? I'm glad none of you guys are kings.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Provide me with any logical explanation as to how Ned knew there were thousands of soldiers in the RK when he was miles from the city marching down the King's Road.

Ned enters the Red Keep while Jaime is sitting on the Throne and the Lannisters have taken control. He can see that there are thousands of Royalists still in Kings Landing. Why would the Westerland soldiers allow them into Kings Landing, there is no logic to that, none whatsoever.

[John Suburbs]

Ned enters the Red Keep while Jaime is sitting on the Throne and the Lannisters have taken control. He can see that there are thousands of Royalists still in Kings Landing. Why would the Westerland soldiers allow them into Kings Landing, there is no logic to that, none whatsoever.

Yes, Ned enters the RK hours after the sack has already begun. He doesn't see thousands of royalists in the city, only in the keep, as per your quote, but he still has no way of knowing who was in the RK before the sack began. You know who does? Jaime. Jaime trumps Ned in this case, and he retells the entire story to Brienne in the bathhouse at Harrenhall, from the Battle of the Bells to when Ned came through the door, including the plan to seed the city with wildfire.

"Ned Stark was racing south with Robert's van, but my father's forces reached the city first. Pycelle convinced the king that his Warden of the West had come to defend him, so he opened the gates. The one time he should have heeded Varys, he ignored him. My father had held back from the war, brooding on all the wrongs Aerys had done him and determined that House Lannister should be on the winning side. The Trident decided for him."

So it is clear from this that Aerys genuinely thought Tywin was there to save him and that Tywin was going to betray Aerys right from the start. Your version of events has Tywin ordering the sack only because Aerys or someone in KL started resisting Tywin, but that is clearly not the case. No plans to fortify the Red Keep. No plan to attack Tywin once he's inside.

There's your quote, there's your evidence, spoken by the man who was right there in the RK, not the one ten miles up the road. Jaime trumps Ned.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Yes, Ned enters the RK hours after the sack has already begun. He doesn't see thousands of royalists in the city, only in the keep, as per your quote, but he still has no way of knowing who was in the RK before the sack began. You know who does? Jaime. Jaime trumps Ned in this case, and he retells the entire story to Brienne in the bathhouse at Harrenhall, from the Battle of the Bells to when Ned came through the door, including the plan to seed the city with wildfire.

"Ned Stark was racing south with Robert's van, but my father's forces reached the city first. Pycelle convinced the king that his Warden of the West had come to defend him, so he opened the gates. The one time he should have heeded Varys, he ignored him. My father had held back from the war, brooding on all the wrongs Aerys had done him and determined that House Lannister should be on the winning side. The Trident decided for him."

So it is clear from this that Aerys genuinely thought Tywin was there to save him and that Tywin was going to betray Aerys right from the start. Your version of events has Tywin ordering the sack only because Aerys or someone in KL started resisting Tywin, but that is clearly not the case. No plans to fortify the Red Keep. No plan to attack Tywin once he's inside.

There's your quote, there's your evidence, spoken by the man who was right there in the RK, not the one ten miles up the road. Jaime trumps Ned.

Where does Jaime state that there were no loyalists in the Red Keep?

The Mad paranoid Aerys is going to send of every soldier and leave himself unprotected? What books have you been reading?

[John Suburbs]

Where does Jaime state that there were no loyalists in the Red Keep?

The Mad paranoid Aerys is going to send of every soldier and leave himself unprotected? What books have you been reading?

I'm starting to think you are not serious about any of this because no one can be this moronic. You're screwing with me, right?

Jaime doesn't say there are no pink fairies flying around the IT either, are we to assume that there are? He gives Brienne a step-by-step account of everything between that happened from the Battle of the Bells through the sack, and there is no mention of letting Tywin through the gates and then attacking him. So if you want to make things up out of whole cloth be my guest, but your theory has absolutely no basis in the text. None.

And this whole argument is completely beside the point. Let's say there are thousands of targ soldiers packed into the Red Keep and all throughout the city. Why would Aerys then open the gates to Tywin if he already has an army protecting him? Why would anyone pick a fight with Tywin after the gates were opened, causing him to sack the city? Tywin is the last hope that Aerys and all of KL would survive the certain siege and sacking that was coming down the King's Road. Why allow your defender into your city and then try to kill him?

And yes, as per Jaime in AFFC, the pride and power of the Targaryens marched north with Rhaegar. KL was left with a few garrisons at best because if they lost at the Trident, there was no way they could survive the rebellion.

I recommend that you read what is actually on the page first and then form you opinions, not the other way around.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

. Why would Aerys then open the gates to Tywin if he already has an army protecting him?

Are you so clueless not to know why Aerys might not want more soldiers on his side with the advancing Rebel forces on its way?

Ned tells us that there were thousands of loyalists still in the red keep.

The world book says:

Ser Jaime Lannister was meanwhile left in charge of the Red Keeps defenses. The walls were manned by knights and watchmen, awaiting the enemy...

Once within the walls of the city, his soldiers assaulted the defenders of Kings Landing, and blood ran red in the streets

Two different sources now claim that Kings Landing was not defenseless. You still have not come up with one source to say that there was no defense.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Yeah, I'm not sure why people would think the Targaryens had no soldiers inside the city. That's just silly, and is an example of the lengths people will go to cast Tywin in the worst light possible (the sack was awful just like all sacks, don't get me wrong). Alliser Thorne was actually a knight who was captured by Tywin's forces while defending the Red Keep, if I recall

With the possible exception of Elia and her children, things would have played out the same way with Ned's forces, just with more rebel casualties. Sacks are brutal affairs, there's no way around it.

[John Suburbs]

I never said there were no defenses in the city, just that there was a skeleton army because the vast majority of the targ forces went north with Rhaegar.

Your notion is that Tywin had no choice but to sack the city because as soon as he entered the gates he was met with massive, widespread resistance, and that is simply not true. The entire city from the king on down hailed Tywin as a savior -- their last hope of defeating the northmen. Why would anyone attack him?

Tywin marched peacefully through the gates, established positions in all the key points, and then ordered his army to sack the city. There was no resistance, no provocation at all until Tywin struck first. You keep bringing up all these fighters in the RK, but that was after the sack began. Until that point, everyone thought Tywin was their ally.

So Tywin had no military reason to initiate the sack. It wasn't necessary to subdue the city or overcome its defenses. The only reason he did it was to provide cover for the murder of the royal family so he could chalk it up to the chaos of moment. But there would have been no chaos if he didn't initiate it.

And nearly the entire chapter on Aerys in the world book is sourced from Pycelle -- hardly an unbiased observer where Tywin is concerned.

[marsyao]

Sometimes, I feel rather hopeless trying to explain something about Medieval warfare reality to people live in modern time, but let me do it one more time:
When a hostile Medieval army entered a rich city, the sacking of this city would became a certantiy regardless whether they met any kind of resistance or whether it was their commander's intention to sack the ciy, soldiers would do it anyway,and there was no way their commander could stop them even if he wanted to.

[John Suburbs]

Tywin was not a hostile army when he entered the city, at least not to the city's inhabitants. He did not become hostile until he made the cold, calculated decision to order the sack. As far as his own soldiers knew, they were there to defend the city, not conquer it, so there is no reason to think they would suddenly run amok just because the gates were opened.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

And nearly the entire chapter on Aerys in the world book is sourced from Pycelle -- hardly an unbiased observer where Tywin is concerned.

Two sources are in agreement, Pycelle and Ned Stark.

[John Suburbs]

Two sources are in agreement, Pycelle and Ned Stark.

Yes, yes, for the thousandth time, we all agree that there were targ forces in the city at the time. My point is that they were not putting up any resistance to Tywin until after the sack began. Why don't you get that?

I think the disconnect that people are having is that they think the gates were opened and Tywin immediately yelled "attack" and the westerman came storming in. But that doesn't make sense because it means only a handful of Tywin's army would have been inside when the fighting started.

A smart leader like Tywin would march as much of his army into the city first, take up defensive positions around the city, and then initiate the sack when the numbers were on his side. It was probably two hours or more after the gates were opened that the sack began.

[John Suburbs]

I would put it this way: Tywin does not let the morality of the situation influence his decision-making. The only thing that matters is winning. Once you've won, you get to not only establish what is and is not moral, but what actually happened as well.

The winner gets to tell the tale.

[John Doe]

Tywin is a monster he's not above anything as we see in ASOIAF. And Aerys saw inside Cersei's soul he knew anything Tywin spawned would not be good and should not marry into his family or breed with his heir. Aerys knew that Tywin and his were not worthy to marry into the royally family and they weren't that's why they married into a usurped bastard family that at the end of it all is not worthy.

Wow. That's just... wow.

[The Wolves]

And as we all know Aerys was an excellent judge of character

He wasn't wrong about Tywin at all or not marrying Cersei to Rhaegar.

You know the Cersei who fucked her brother giving the realm 3 inbreed bastards or Tywin who orders the murder of babies, has a child gang raped by grown men, massacres innocent men, women, and children, and all around monster.

Aerys was many things but he wasn't wrong about keeping Tywin and his evil family from marrying into the royal family.

[John Doe]

Sometimes, I feel rather hopeless trying to explain something about Medieval warfare reality to people live in modern time, but let me do it one more time:

When a hostile Medieval army entered a rich city, the sacking of this city would became a certantiy regardless whether they met any kind of resistance or whether it was their commander's intention to sack the ciy, soldiers would do it anyway,and there was no way their commander could stop them even if he wanted to.

True. It's the same with the chevauchee.

[John Doe]

He wasn't wrong about Tywin at all or not marrying Cersei to Rhaegar.

You know the Cersei who fucked her brother giving the realm 3 inbreed bastards or Tywin who orders the murder of babies, has a child gang raped by grown men, massacres innocent men, women, and children, and all around monster.

Aerys was many things but he wasn't wrong about keeping Tywin and his evil family from marrying into the royal family.

Tywin brought the realm 20 prosperous years, while Aerys' greatest achievment was losing the throne his already half- mad family had hold for nearly threehundred years. Aerys raped his own sister. I don't see how the Lannisters are worse than the Targaryens.