Tywin Lannister, OMG may not be that bad afterall

[Moondancer]

The thing is that Cersei as Queen results in the incest with Jaime being found since Rhaegar wasn't a drunkard, which results in dead Jaime and Cersei, which results in dead Tywin.

Cersei hated Robert. Her hate made her eat his children. Her conscious actions are the consequence of her feelings towards that man. Robert =/= Rhaegar.

As for the rest... Well, we're not reading that story. We cannot know what Rhaegar's Queen Cersei would do. And we cannot know what would happen had we taken a different route.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

According to the ASOIAF timeline spreadsheet (admittedly not 100%accurate) news of the Red Wedding and Robbs death reached Kings Landing on the 20th of the 12th month.

This is your royal pardon for Lord Gawen Westerling, his lady wife, and his daughter Jeyne, welcoming them back into the king's peace," Ser Kevan said. "This is a pardon for Lord Jonos Bracken of Stone Hedge. This is a pardon for Lord Vance. This for Lord Goodbrook. This for Lord Mooton of Maidenpool."

This happened a month later on the 19th of the 1st.

They folded pretty quickly.

[marsyao]

Tywin's line is complete bullshit because:

a) Robb was going North to fight the Ironborn;

B) The Freys murdered THOUSANDS, not just a few;

c) By breaking guest-right, Tywin makes sure that every war he fights has to be fought to the last man, because the two sides can't trust each other enough to sit down and have a conversation;

People who are Tywin fans (and I don't mean Tywin as an interesting villain, like most people are) all have one thing in common: they only pay attention to what he says while completely ignoring what he actually does.

You forget

1) As long as Robb still was King of the North, he would still be enemy of the throne and House Lannister.

2) Tywin never break guest's right, that was Lord Frey's doing, a little hint, Robb was not Tywin's guest when he was killed, another hint: Riverland Lords, many of t hem victims of the Red Wedding, were mostly statisfied with their terms with House Lannisters

[marsyao]

Tywin himself didn't break guest right btw. He connived at someone else doing so, and has plausible deniability. The idea the Red Wedding means you can never make peace again is absurd: we see riverlords rushing to do just that after hearing about the wedding!

You can not convince somebody to break guest's right, the entire red wedding was Lord Walder Frey's idea alone, Tywin just ordered him murdered Robb, he did not care how Lord Frey accomplish this task

[marsyao]

The Riverlords have no choice because of the hostages- but what about when they are released or die? What happens in the next war? Why would they trust the Lannisters if they offer a peace deal? And we're already seeing what happens when someone has their hostage released: they are literally eating Freys, serving them as pies.

And like I said: Robb was going North to fight the Ironborn, he wouldn't be a threat to Tywin in the years at least.

No, Tywin actually demand Freys to return the hostages, Riverland Lords actaully House Lannister was somebody they can make deal, did you read the Chapters about Jaime in the Riverlands?

[John Doe]

Why would they trust the Lannisters if they offer a peace deal?

Because it was the Freys, not the Lannisters who broke guest right.

[Ramsay Gimp]

c) By breaking guest-right, Tywin makes sure that every war he fights has to be fought to the last man, because the two sides can't trust each other enough to sit down and have a conversation;

.

This is true for the Freys and maybe the Boltons, but not the Lannisters. Plenty of Houses have already negotiated peace with them since the RW

Why would they trust the Lannisters if they offer a peace deal?

And like I said: Robb was going North to fight the Ironborn, he wouldn't be a threat to Tywin in the years at least.

-Because the Lannisters didn't violate any peace deal, or break guest right

-If Robb went North he would still be calling himself King and would no doubt return one day to continue his war on the Lannisters, and the Riverlords would still be an immediate threat

[Maid So Fair]

Cersei hated Robert. Her hate made her eat his children. Her conscious actions are the consequence of her feelings towards that man. Robert =/= Rhaegar.

As for the rest... Well, we're not reading that story. We cannot know what Rhaegar's Queen Cersei would do. And we cannot know what would happen had we taken a different route.

I think she would still cheat, but it could never be proven. The children of a Lannister and a Targ are blond! Quelle surprise! What's next? Winter is coming?

[Winterfell is Burning]

Cersei hated Robert. Her hate made her eat his children. Her conscious actions are the consequence of her feelings towards that man. Robert =/= Rhaegar.

As for the rest... Well, we're not reading that story. We cannot know what Rhaegar's Queen Cersei would do. And we cannot know what would happen had we taken a different route.

Cersei only hated Robert after they got married; before that she had a crush on him just like she had one on Rhaegar.

And Cersei wife of Rhaegar wouldn't be much different from Cersei wife of Robert or Cersei wife of Ned or Cersei wife of Superman: she has shown over and over again that she a narcissist with a complete lack of common sense and empathy and terrible judgement. Sooner or later Rhaegar would do something to disappoint her and she would come back to Jaime.

I think she would still cheat, but it could never be proven. The children of a Lannister and a Targ are blond! Quelle surprise! What's next? Winter is coming?

The difference being that Rhaegar would notice she was cheating, just like Robert would if he wasn't a drunkard.

[Maid So Fair]

The difference being that Rhaegar would notice she was cheating, just like Robert would if he wasn't a drunkard.

I agree with everything else you're saying, but notice how? She would still sleep with him, just like she does with Robert (if with more penetrative sex), and it's not unusual she would spend time apart from Rhaegar from time to time OR spend time with her brother. She'd just need to be more careful about her timing but then pregnancy isn't an exact science so within one month should be reasonable.

[Winterfell is Burning]

I agree with everything else you're saying, but notice how? She would still sleep with him, just like she does with Robert (if with more penetrative sex), and it's not unusual she would spend time apart from Rhaegar from time to time OR spend time with her brother. She'd just need to be more careful about her timing but then pregnancy isn't an exact science so within one month should be reasonable.

Well, for starters, Rhaegar would notice if Cersei avoided penetrative sex. Then if silver-haired babies begun to die while blonde ones didn't.

Plus of course babies being born with a different hair color than you is certainly not the only way to notice your wife is keeping an affair with someone else. And being a Targaryen, siblings having an affair wouldn't be a notion that strange for him. Also, Cersei is certainly not the mistress of deception and lies that she thinks she is; she got away with it with Robert because he's a drunk who was too busy screwing other women (and perhaps he knew deep down) but with a different husband, it makes it less likely.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Well, for starters, Rhaegar would notice if Cersei avoided penetrative sex. Then if silver-haired babies begun to die while blonde ones didn't.

That was just in the TV show, she never killed her own children in the books.

[Maid So Fair]

Well, for starters, Rhaegar would notice if Cersei avoided penetrative sex. Then if silver-haired babies begun to die while blonde ones didn't.

Plus of course babies being born with a different hair color than you is certainly not the only way to notice your wife is keeping an affair with someone else. And being a Targaryen, siblings having an affair wouldn't be a notion that strange for him. Also, Cersei is certainly not the mistress of deception and lies that she thinks she is; she got away with it with Robert because he's a drunk who was too busy screwing other women (and perhaps he knew deep down) but with a different husband, it makes it less likely.

IIRC Cersei aborted Robert's potential children before term, so the first thing really isn't an issue. Of course, this would have been a lot more difficult with Rhaegar, as she would be likely to get pregnant more often and would need a lot more abortions. Since that would probably be pretty harsh on her health, she might not want to take the chance and might decide to actually give Rhaegar children. There's also the possibility that she wouldn't hate Rhaegar as much as she came to hate Robert (I'm not proposing she would love him or be happy with him, just despise him less) and would be willing to go through the pregnancy. I doubt she would conspire to kill her own child, once born.

Discovery is a lot more likely with Rhaegar, but it's not a foregone conclusion. There's also a possibility that he wouldn't especially care as long as the children were his.

[John Suburbs]

I'm not convinced Cersei would kill Rhaegar's children in any event. Her lineage would then contain blood of the dragon, and I think even she would see that as too valuable to destroy. In fact, I can even see Cersie breaking it off with Jaime at some point, depending on what kind of king, husband and father Rhaegar turned out to be.

[Winterfell is Burning]

I'm not convinced Cersei would kill Rhaegar's children in any event. Her lineage would then contain blood of the dragon, and I think even she would see that as too valuable to destroy. In fact, I can even see Cersie breaking it off with Jaime at some point, depending on what kind of king, husband and father Rhaegar turned out to be.

Like I said, Cersei is a narcissist that has shown over and over again a complete lack of empathy and common sense, impulsiveness and terrible judgement, and a complete lack of morals. She also has been shown in AFFC as someone that just cannot change.

It's simply impossible she would turn into a completely different person just because she married someone else, and all her bad traits would go away. Sooner or later Rhaegar would disappoint her somehow and she would go back to Jaime again, because that's her nature. Specially considering I don't see Rhaegar, or anyone, being happy in a marriage with her.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Like I said, Cersei is a narcissist that has shown over and over again a complete lack of empathy and common sense, impulsiveness and terrible judgement, and a complete lack of morals. She also has been shown in AFFC as someone that just cannot change.

It's simply impossible she would turn into a completely different person just because she married someone else, and all her bad traits would go away. Sooner or later Rhaegar would disappoint her somehow and she would go back to Jaime again, because that's her nature. Specially considering I don't see Rhaegar, or anyone, being happy in a marriage with her.

Why did Arya become a sociopath? Was it because she was born that way or did the events shape her that way?

To say that Cersei was going to behave exactly the same way not matter the variables is misguided.

[Rrachel]

I belive this is the richness on the characters of GRRM... they are never good or bad, they are human. They have flaws, they have strenghts and theis evilness comes from things they had to deal in life.

[John Suburbs]

Like I said, Cersei is a narcissist that has shown over and over again a complete lack of empathy and common sense, impulsiveness and terrible judgement, and a complete lack of morals. She also has been shown in AFFC as someone that just cannot change.

It's simply impossible she would turn into a completely different person just because she married someone else, and all her bad traits would go away. Sooner or later Rhaegar would disappoint her somehow and she would go back to Jaime again, because that's her nature. Specially considering I don't see Rhaegar, or anyone, being happy in a marriage with her.

I think she's changed a lot. In the first book, I saw a shrewd manipulator and power grabber who was one of the savvier players in the game. Once she obtained real power, first through Robert's death, then through Tywin's, she seemed to have no idea what to do with it and has made increasingly stupid decisions that have isolated her from whatever support she may have had so that she now finds herself alone, facing trial and possible execution by the church.

So I think her character has changed depending on her circumstances, which leads me to believe a marriage to Rhaegar could -- could -- have been very different from her marriage to Robert.

[Ramsay Gimp]

I could see Cersei cheating on Rhaegar, but not deliberately cuckolding him with fake heirs

[Dofs]

I think she's changed a lot. In the first book, I saw a shrewd manipulator and power grabber who was one of the savvier players in the game. Once she obtained real power, first through Robert's death, then through Tywin's, she seemed to have no idea what to do with it and has made increasingly stupid decisions that have isolated her from whatever support she may have had so that she now finds herself alone, facing trial and possible execution by the church.

So I think her character has changed depending on her circumstances, which leads me to believe a marriage to Rhaegar could -- could -- have been very different from her marriage to Robert.

Nah, she was always vain, cruel and narcissistic and would have made Rhaegar's live a living hell. No doubt she would have cheated on him but I do believe at least she would have given him a heir (thought maybe not all her kids would have been Rhaegar's). And she only looked like a shrewd manipulator in the first book but never was. It was all Littlefinger that did everything for her (and Ned Stark as well). If you look at her methods in GoT, than they are no different than those in FfC - either plainly killing her enemies or using a bed.