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Panther2000

Tywin Lannister, OMG may not be that bad afterall

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Why did Ned Stark chose to back Stannis, even though he knew that it would mean certain war?

Not backing Stannis would also result in certain war. Stannis knew about the incest and wouldn't give up. Renly would also move for the crown. Tywin was already attacking the Riverlands.

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Not backing Stannis would also result in certain war. Stannis knew about the incest and wouldn't give up. Renly would also move for the crown. Tywin was already attacking the Riverlands.

I agree, a broader war was inevitable if Renly crowned himself.

But, and this is kinda off-topic, does he crown himself if Ned is still alive? Renly's ambitious, but in ACOK he says Ned's death basically left him no choice, and his plan in AGOT seemed to involve taking the power but not the actual throne.

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Not backing Stannis would also result in certain war. Stannis knew about the incest and wouldn't give up. Renly would also move for the crown. Tywin was already attacking the Riverlands.

Ned had no idea about Renly going to war, and Renly didn't care about the incest. Stones brooding on Dragsonstone meant very little as unlike Ned, who got a confession from Cersei, all he had was a rumor.

At the time Littlefinger said there would be war the alternatives were Joffrey and peace or Stannis and a large war.

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The Riverlords have no choice because of the hostages- but what about when they are released or die? What happens in the next war? Why would they trust the Lannisters if they offer a peace deal? And we're already seeing what happens when someone has their hostage released: they are literally eating Freys, serving them as pies.

And like I said: Robb was going North to fight the Ironborn, he wouldn't be a threat to Tywin in the years at least.

Sorry for being late.

But that sounds just like the common result from a war. In regards to resumed hostilities, its exactly what also happened after the Blackfyre Rebellion where the Targaryens showed leniency, so no great change there.

In regards to Robb, as long as a separatist king lived there would be fighting untill he either broke away, and lay the foundations for new wars in the future, or he yielded to the Iron Throne.

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Moral or not, I see Tywin Lannister going down in westerland history as one of the great heroes of the age, with maybe even a statue of him in Lannisport someday.


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Moral or not, I see Tywin Lannister going down in westerland history as one of the great heroes of the age, with maybe even a statue of him in Lannisport someday.

Not if his funeral was any indication. Doesn't Cersei remark on how no one seems all that upset?

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Dany would have done the Red Wedding.

What?! Where did you pull that from?! Dany most definitely would not do the Red Wedding, based on everything we know about her. Dany directly refused to the Red Wedding for the Meerenese slavers when Daario suggested it, and was disgusted by the suggestion, telling him he would make her a monster, and thinking that Daario was a monster for suggesting something like that. And I'd say she had a stronger incentive to kill those people, who are also considerably nastier than the Starks.

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What?! Where did you pull that from?! Dany most definitely would not do the Red Wedding, based on everything we know about her. Dany directly refused to the Red Wedding for the Meerenese slavers when Daario suggested it, and was disgusted by the suggestion, telling him he would make her a monster, and thinking that Daario was a monster for suggesting something like that. And I'd say she had a stronger incentive to kill those people, who are also considerably nastier than the Starks.

In SoS she broke her word with the Yunkish and attacked under cover of a truce.

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In SoS she broke her word with the Yunkish and attacked under cover of a truce.

There was never a truce, she just said she would wait for their answer w and she upheld the terms she gave them, never burning or plundering Yunkai. Even Saint Barristan does not object to this tactic when he hears about it.

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There was never a truce, she just said she would wait for their answer

That rather implies you don't attack until you get your answer.

She also lied to the sellswords, as Jorah pointed out.

In DwD we see Ghiscari saying she breaks truces.

w and she upheld the terms she gave them, never burning or plundering Yunkai. Even Saint Barristan does not object to this tactic when he hears about it.

That was because they still had lots of men on the walls though.

Point about Ser Barry. That is troubling.

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Not if his funeral was any indication. Doesn't Cersei remark on how no one seems all that upset?

That's because no one liked Tywin. That doesn't mean they didn't respect him. Plus, his funeral was only a few days after his death. In a generations time, the West will have a new set of lords, and all that will be remembered about Tywin is what he accomplished, not who he was or how much people liked him.

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Not if his funeral was any indication. Doesn't Cersei remark on how no one seems all that upset?

Cersei is not a good source for these things.

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There was never a truce, she just said she would wait for their answer w and she upheld the terms she gave them, never burning or plundering Yunkai. Even Saint Barristan does not object to this tactic when he hears about it.

Even Saint Barristan does not object to rape.

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That's because no one liked Tywin. That doesn't mean they didn't respect him. Plus, his funeral was only a few days after his death. In a generations time, the West will have a new set of lords, and all that will be remembered about Tywin is what he accomplished, not who he was or how much people liked him.

Tywin will almost certainly be more remembered for his children than for anything he did. The Kingslayer, The Mad Queen and The Great Monster of Westeros, The Imp (even more if he does ride a dragon) are hard to beat.

Plus, TWOIAF and the Dance of the Dragons related stories show to what extent history is written by the winners, and whoever wins the Iron Throne will not be someone sympathetic to him.

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Not if his funeral was any indication. Doesn't Cersei remark on how no one seems all that upset?

How would the smallfolk of Kings Landing be an indicator of how he would be remembered back home?

Those same people were cheering for Ned Stark to be executed, which had no bearing on how the people of the North viewed their Lord.

All the Great Lords and Knights of the Westerlands came to Kings Landing to lead his procession back home, the Lords and people of the West seemed to have felt loss.

Plus Tywin was given a state funeral, something usually only for Kings. His impact will be remembered in being one of the longest ever serving Hands, the difference between the Westerlands he inherited and how strong it was when he died and making his daughter Queen and Grandchildren Kings. In the West, at least, he will be remebered as a Great.

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How would the smallfolk of Kings Landing be an indicator of how he would be remembered back home?

Those same people were cheering for Ned Stark to be executed, which had no bearing on how the people of the North viewed their Lord.

All the Great Lords and Knights of the Westerlands came to Kings Landing to lead his procession back home, the Lords and people of the West seemed to have felt loss.

Plus Tywin was given a state funeral, something usually only for Kings. His impact will be remembered in being one of the longest ever serving Hands, the difference between the Westerlands he inherited and how strong it was when he died and making his daughter Queen and Grandchildren Kings. In the West, at least, he will be remebered as a Great.

:agree:

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Tywin will almost certainly be more remembered for his children than for anything he did. The Kingslayer, The Mad Queen and The Great Monster of Westeros, The Imp (even more if he does ride a dragon) are hard to beat.

Plus, TWOIAF and the Dance of the Dragons related stories show to what extent history is written by the winners, and whoever wins the Iron Throne will not be someone sympathetic to him.

But the Iron Throne=/=the Westerlands. The original post was about how he'd be remembered in the West. In the West, I think his legacy will be positive. Throughout the rest of Westeros, his legacy will be much more controversial.

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But the Iron Throne=/=the Westerlands. The original post was about how he'd be remembered in the West. In the West, I think his legacy will be positive. Throughout the rest of Westeros, his legacy will be much more controversial.t i

I strongly doubt; like I said, in history his children will easily overshadow him, just like Aegon III's did, even though he was a much better King than they were.

Plus, it was under his rule that the Westerlands were invaded and pretty much annihilated by Robb Stark, and it's also quite possible that whoever ends up ruling the West will be hostile to Tywin- be it Tyrion or a non-Lannister.

We also see that the rulers that were strong, but noble and honorable, like Ned, Jaehaerys I and Jon Arryn, are revered even after they pass, and so are the ones that project a more romantic image of the great young warrior- Robb, The Young Dragon- but we have yet to see someone as cold, brutal and deceitful as Tywin be fondly remembered by anyone anywhere.

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Plus, it was under his rule that the Westerlands were invaded and pretty much annihilated by Robb Stark, and it's also quite possible that whoever ends up ruling the West will be hostile to Tywin- be it Tyrion or a non-Lannister.

Everything is possible. What we know about Twins' bannerman tells us that they respected him.

Nothing indicates that his children will overshadow him either. Neither Jaime nor Cersei or Tyrion seem to be more widely known than Tywin. The history of the seven kingdoms is full of crazy people (the Targaryens took care of that), but there were few rulers so effective and so long at power as he was.

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Everything is possible. What we know about Twins' bannerman tells us that they respected him.

Nothing indicates that his children will overshadow him either. Neither Jaime nor Cersei or Tyrion seem to be more widely known than Tywin. The history of the seven kingdoms is full of crazy people (the Targaryens took care of that), but there were few rulers so effective and so long at power as he was.

Well, we know Tywin's bannermen feared him for sure. We never had a Westerman POV that wasn't a Lannister, or saw them interacting much with non-Lannisters, outside from The Hound (I also think the Westerlands outside the Lannisters are the less developed area we have; compare them to the North, Dorne, or even the Iron Islands for example. It's too Lannister-centric).

And sorry, but there's not a chance in hell that the Kingslayer, the one knight of the Kingsguard that murdered his (Mad) King, was one of the greatest swordsmen ever until loses his hand, and fathered 3 children with his own sister, The Mad Queen, the one that burned the Tower of the Hand (and quite possibly will try to burn the entire KL) and re-armed the Faith, only to be forced to walk naked through the streets of King's Landing, will not be more remembered by history than Tywin.

And that's not even taking into account The Imp, the greatest monster of Westeros, a dwarf who was a sexual maniac and that murdered his own nephew, his own father, and quite likely will return to Westeros with an army, a dragon, or both. We're already seeing Tyrion becoming a legend of infamy, even outside Westeros (TWOIAF spoilers):

Arya participates on a play clearly based on Tyrion in which he's a complete monster. And that in Braavos

.

The Kingslayer, the Mad Queen and the Imp will become as famous monsters as the Rat Cook, if not more. Tywin will be more remembered for spawning them and being killed by the latter. It's a question of both logic and simply poetic justice: everything Tywin tries to build is destroyed and a man that towered over his peers for decades will become a footnote due to his legacy: his infamous children.

The better comparisons for Tywin are Aegon III, like I said, and also Viserys II. The latter specially was one of the greatest hands of all time, and also King, being the defacto ruler for over 15 years, but is barely remembered by the people of Westeros, unlike his nephews and his son.

Also, not ASOIAF related, but Terrence Winter, the creator of Boardwalk Empire, said he visited Atlantic City a few years before the show was released and asked people about Nucky Johnson, the character that inspired Nucky Thompson, and was the most powerful person in the area for 30 years. He said not a single person had any idea who he was. No one remembered a man that was basically King of the city for many decades. But of course everyone remembers Al Capone, even though he ruled Chicago for a much smaller period- people tend to remember the flashier characters only.

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