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Panther2000

Tywin Lannister, OMG may not be that bad afterall

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But Tywin was a flashy character himself, not only kind of a grey eminence. The Reynes of Castamaer, for example, prove that.



I didn't say his children won't be remembered either, but they won't overshadow Tywin by a margin that large.


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The Kingslayer, the Mad Queen and the Imp will become as famous monsters as the Rat Cook, if not more. Tywin will be more remembered for spawning them and being killed by the latter. It's a question of both logic and simply poetic justice: everything Tywin tries to build is destroyed and a man that towered over his peers for decades will become a footnote due to his legacy: his infamous children.

The better comparisons for Tywin are Aegon III, like I said, and also Viserys II. The latter specially was one of the greatest hands of all time, and also King, being the defacto ruler for over 15 years, but is barely remembered by the people of Westeros, unlike his nephews and his son.

Also, not ASOIAF related, but Terrence Winter, the creator of Boardwalk Empire, said he visited Atlantic City a few years before the show was released and asked people about Nucky Johnson, the character that inspired Nucky Thompson, and was the most powerful person in the area for 30 years. He said not a single person had any idea who he was. No one remembered a man that was basically King of the city for many decades. But of course everyone remembers Al Capone, even though he ruled Chicago for a much smaller period- people tend to remember the flashier characters only.

Well said. And I think the magnificent bastard actually realized this once Tyrion put a crossbow in him

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That's because no one liked Tywin. That doesn't mean they didn't respect him. Plus, his funeral was only a few days after his death. In a generations time, the West will have a new set of lords, and all that will be remembered about Tywin is what he accomplished, not who he was or how much people liked him.

Tywin started a war that will lead to a mass famine and serious weakening of the realm (Westerlands included) right before the Long Night. He will be remembered, all right, but I doubt the memories will be positive.

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Tywin started a war that will lead to a mass famine and serious weakening of the realm (Westerlands included) right before the Long Night. He will be remembered, all right, but I doubt the memories will be positive.

Like Robb did.

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Tywin started a war that will lead to a mass famine and serious weakening of the realm (Westerlands included) right before the Long Night. He will be remembered, all right, but I doubt the memories will be positive.

He didnt start a war. It bears repeating but the Realm to first officially invade another kingdom was Riverrun when Edmure Tully ordered 4,000 soldiers to the Golden Tooth in the Riverlands.

I love how this is often ignored.

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Plus, it was under his rule that the Westerlands were invaded and pretty much annihilated by Robb Stark,

lol

Seriously?

Robb Stark took the ruinous Crag and Ashemark. That is it, two settlements from God knows how many. He snuck past the Golden Tooth and did not have enough men to threaten the Rock or Lannisport.

Two settlements and some sheep. That is hardly annihilation, not by a long shot.

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He didnt start a war. It bears repeating but the Realm to first officially invade another kingdom was Riverrun when Edmure Tully ordered 4,000 soldiers to the Golden Tooth in the Riverlands.

I love how this is often ignored.

Probably because it's not true. There were Riverlands forces which were guarding the pass to prevent the Lannisters invading the Riverlands. They weren't invading. The Lannisters attacked these forces and won.

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Isn't Golden Tooth name for the pass? It's possible that some part of the pass is in Riverlands, it's same like Dornish Marches. If I said there was battle in Dornish Marches, was it in Dorne, Stormlands or Reach?


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Probably because it's not true. There were Riverlands forces which were guarding the pass to prevent the Lannisters invading the Riverlands. They weren't invading. The Lannisters attacked these forces and won.

Isn't Golden Tooth name for the pass? It's possible that some part of the pass is in Riverlands, it's same like Dornish Marches. If I said there was battle in Dornish Marches, was it in Dorne, Stormlands or Reach?

The Riverlands has no natural boundaries. This has been established in the series, had there been a pass on the border they would have been able to use it.

Here is a link to the various maps of Westeros. The Golden Tooth is quite clearly some distance from the border

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They were at the Golden Tooth, the Golden Tooth is in the Westerlands.

They were guarding the pass at the hills below the Golden tooth, most likely in Riverlands territory.

“Less than a fortnight past, they fought a battle in the hills below the Golden Tooth,” Robb said. “Uncle Edmure had sent Lord Vance and Lord Piper to hold the pass, but the Kingslayer descended on them and put them to flight.

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They were guarding the pass at the hills below the Golden tooth, most likely in Riverlands territory.

Both the hills and the Golden Tooth are in the Westerlands. It is clear on the majority of the maps the Tooth is mentioned on.

The Mountain pass is the passageway between the Tooth and Casterly Rock/Lannisport. The Golden Road runs through it. Here is a topography map of the Westerlands.

Now once the marching Westerland army leaves the mountain pass there is no way for the Riverlands army to defend itself so the Riverlords best chance to stop the larger Lannister army is to go into Westerland territory and guard the smaller pass rather than the larger plains on both sides of the West/Riverlands borders.

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The maps are made by fans. The book context is pretty clear that the Lannisters invaded first, even discounting the Gregor raid (which we shouldn't since everyone knew that was ordered by Tywin) and that lands below the Golden tooth on the east side are in the Riverlands. Edmure was gathering forces there even before Vance and Piper came to complain to Robb about Gregor's raid.


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The maps are made by fans.

The Worlf of Ice and Fire has a Westerlands map with both the border and the Golden Tooth.

The book context is pretty clear that the Lannisters invaded first,

If it was clear there would not be regualr debate on the subject.

even discounting the Gregor raid (which we shouldn't since everyone knew that was ordered by Tywin) and that lands below the Golden tooth on the east side are in the Riverlands. Edmure was gathering forces there even before Vance and Piper came to complain to Robb about Gregor's raid.

Ned is told by Darry that he and his strength are camped outside the Walls of Riverrun.

Individuals such as Vance and Piper being in the Westerlands is not a crime. They dont mention that they are there are 4,000 soldiers there as well.

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That's the tricky part, though, which Ned puzzled out as soon as reports of raids in the riverlands started to trickle into the capital: none of the raiders showed any colors or were carrying any banners, so if Riverrun responded Tywin could simply claim that he was the one being attacked. That was why he send Beric and Co. to locate the raiders and bring the mountain to justice, so he could then confront Tywin with actual evidence that his bannermen were running amok.


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The Tywin parts of this book were just fascinating to me. I've always felt that he was a more interesting character then the one note Machiavellian villain a lot of people see him as. The stuff the secret passage from the tower of the hand to the brothels and how that relates to the way he treats Tyrion, Joanna being the only one to make him smile, Kevan and Genna's devotion to him, etc. When you see his career laid out and how many people were itching for him to fail just because of his family's wealth and power, not to mention the systematic and continual abuse he received from the mad king, it really puts things into perspective.

Not to say I excuse the way he treats Tyrion, his total war on the Riverlands, or any of the other horrible things he does. But I really like how he goes from being this brilliant young man with all this promise, to a cruel, callous, and ultimately tragic figure brought down by the fruits of his own hatred.

Also the history of the Westerlands was just great. And the bit about Tytos losing his wife "From that day forth, no one ever again called him the laughing lion" just a sad little bit of pathos for a character generally written off as weak and useless.

My thoughts exactly. There is more to the evil man than what is just in the series on TV & the book. There is a reason behind it all, something brought him to that place. I really like the additional information that we got on him.

But, in the end all his own doings was turned on him, he got what he gave.

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No, having two babies who are potential heirs of the throne murdered is a legit action not a crime, people may not like it, but would understand it, but by killing that this way is an atrocity pure and clear, it would be much better if, as Tywin told Tyrion, these two babies were kiilled in a gentle way, such as using a pillow or even a rope

No, it's still a crime. It's one thing to say that, from a pragmatic point of view, that it's understandable why Rhaegar's heirs were murdered. It's another to claim it's not a crime. It was a crime that Robert Baratheon had no interest in punishing anyone for as Tywin had spared him of having to order the murder of two young children himself - Ned Stark left King's Landing on bad terms with Bobby B because the crime was going unpunished.

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Dany would have done the Red Wedding.

So too would Tyrion if the decision was his to make, I suspect.

Never.

1.Tyrion argues with Tywin about it and he is too smart not to understand the larger picture about what destroying guestright means. He understands the long term. And he is too nice.

2. About Dany, there is a difference between getting sellswords drunk and breaking guest right. There even is a difference between breaking your word (which still is quite an upgrade of what happened ...) and breaking guest right. The fact that she was outraged about Daario's proposition proves this.

Dany and Tyrion are very empatic beings. When Dany sees suffering she will try to end it. Her big problem is she can be harsh and unwise in doing so.

Tywin is someone who has his goal and uses 'the goal justifies the means' approach. Neither Dany nor Tyrion uses this way of thinking. Even if Dany changes in her fire and blood modus and burns all westeros, it will not be 'for the greater good' but for herself, and she realizes that and has not been prepared to pay that price.

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Never.

1.Tyrion argues with Tywin about it and he is too smart not to understand the larger picture about what destroying guestright means. He understands the long term. And he is too nice.

:bs:

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