Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Panther2000

Tywin Lannister, OMG may not be that bad afterall

Recommended Posts

Never.

1.Tyrion argues with Tywin about it and he is too smart not to understand the larger picture about what destroying guestright means. He understands the long term. And he is too nice.

2. About Dany, there is a difference between getting sellswords drunk and breaking guest right. There even is a difference between breaking your word (which still is quite an upgrade of what happened ...) and breaking guest right. The fact that she was outraged about Daario's proposition proves this.

Dany and Tyrion are very empatic beings. When Dany sees suffering she will try to end it. Her big problem is she can be harsh and unwise in doing so.

Tywin is someone who has his goal and uses 'the goal justifies the means' approach. Neither Dany nor Tyrion uses this way of thinking. Even if Dany changes in her fire and blood modus and burns all westeros, it will not be 'for the greater good' but for herself, and she realizes that and has not been prepared to pay that price.

No, he's not. He had someone murdered and put into a pot of brown for attempting to threaten/blackmail him due to his knowledge that Tyrion had a kept whore in KL. Niceties don't really come into it, in my opinion, so much as Tyrion seeing the big picture differently to Tywin, or disagreeing that these ends justify the means.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, he's not. He had someone murdered and put into a pot of brown for attempting to threaten/blackmail him due to his knowledge that Tyrion had a kept whore in KL. Niceties don't really come into it, in my opinion, so much as Tyrion seeing the big picture differently to Tywin, or disagreeing that these ends justify the means.

Not that. Tyrion sends the rescue force for Jaime undercover of a peace mission. He doesn't give a shit about adhering to the forms and traditions either.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, he's not. He had someone murdered and put into a pot of brown for attempting to threaten/blackmail him due to his knowledge that Tyrion had a kept whore in KL. Niceties don't really come into it, in my opinion, so much as Tyrion seeing the big picture differently to Tywin, or disagreeing that these ends justify the means.

So? He killed someone who threatened him? I have never said he is white, he is still gray.

As is Dany and as is Tywin.

'For the greater good' is about crossing boundaries who are holy. Dany and Tyrion have done afwul things to get their way.

But Tyrion nor Dany would kill two little children or spoil guest right because that would be an efficient outcome. Dany has forbidden to kill her hostages and she has forbidden to spoil guest right.

So you can get as much examples about rescue operations or slaughtered sellswords as you want, neither is as bad as killing children.

If they do something bad they do something bad. But they do not cross ethical borders. They still have some sort of values people can relate on. With Tywin you never know. That is the difference.

Well Tyrion did kill his father. :D but even then. He was angry, that is why he did it. He did not calculate what would be the most efficient option.

And yes I think Tyrion and Dany are nice, to GOT standards. They both treat their servants well and like to be loved. Tywin only cares people don't laugh at him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not that. Tyrion sends the rescue force for Jaime undercover of a peace mission. He doesn't give a shit about adhering to the forms and traditions either.

Good point actually.

So? He killed someone who threatened him? I have never said he is white, he is still gray.

As is Dany and as is Tywin.

'For the greater good' is about crossing boundaries who are holy. Dany and Tyrion have done afwul things to get their way.

But Tyrion nor Dany would kill two little children or spoil guest right because that would be an efficient outcome. Dany has forbidden to kill her hostages and she has forbidden to spoil guest right.

So you can get as much examples about rescue operations or slaughtered sellswords as you want, neither is as bad as killing children.

If they do something bad they do something bad. But they do not cross ethical borders. They still have some sort of values people can relate on. With Tywin you never know. That is the difference.

Well Tyrion did kill his father. :D but even then. He was angry, that is why he did it. He did not calculate what would be the most efficient option.

And yes I think Tyrion and Dany are nice, to GOT standards. They both treat their servants well and like to be loved. Tywin only cares people don't laugh at him.

I never claimed you posted that he was "whiter than white" - but you did post that Tyrion was "too nice" to have done what Tywin did, when his actions show otherwise. He didn't agree with the decision Tywin made, but it's not because he's an inherently nice person. Someone who is "too nice" to have done what Tywin did wouldn't have had a singer killed and essentially fed to people to cover up the fact he had a kept whore - one he'd deluded himself into thinking was his girlfriend, but still - in the capital. As you posted, Tyrion killed him because the singer essentially threatened him - that's perhaps something that's understandable or can be empathised with, but it does suggest he's not as nice as some folk like to make out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good point actually.

I never claimed you posted that he was "whiter than white" - but you did post that Tyrion was "too nice" to have done what Tywin did, when his actions show otherwise. He didn't agree with the decision Tywin made, but it's not because he's an inherently nice person. Someone who is "too nice" to have done what Tywin did wouldn't have had a singer killed and essentially fed to people to cover up the fact he had a kept whore - one he'd deluded himself into thinking was his girlfriend, but still - in the capital. As you posted, Tyrion killed him because the singer essentially threatened him - that's perhaps something that's understandable or can be empathised with, but it does suggest he's not as nice as some folk like to make out.

Actually, a lot of people would have taken that discission. If you watch murder mystery programs people there often kill to protect a secret, in this case he is actually protecting her life and safety. It is a popular motivation in storytelling. Idon't say it is that acceptable, but it is certanly understandable.

And I really think he is too nice to kill a child or someone at a wedding. Being too nice not to do something like that does not mean he is a saint.

Like, I am too nice to hurt a puppy, but that does not mean I will not kill an ant messing in my kitchen? On the other hand, the fact that I have killed an ant does not mean I will kill a puppy?

Tyrion his killing is not on the same level as Tywins.

I feel really bad about the ant right now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tyrion his killing is not on the same level as Tywins.

Well, yeah, obviously. He's younger and in a lower position. Had he the power, influence, resources and responsibilities of his father then he may well have.

A King/President/Ruler will always have more blood on his hands than the people down the ladder.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, yeah, obviously. He's younger and in a lower position. Had he the power, influence, resources and responsibilities of his father then he may well have.

A King/President/Ruler will always have more blood on his hands than the people down the ladder.

I think his background with Aerys and the Reynes is more important as his position?

And what do you think about Dany? She has a lot of power?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually, a lot of people would have taken that discission. If you watch murder mystery programs people there often kill to protect a secret, in this case he is actually protecting her life and safety. It is a popular motivation in storytelling. Idon't say it is that acceptable, but it is certanly understandable.

And I really think he is too nice to kill a child or someone at a wedding. Being too nice not to do something like that does not mean he is a saint.

Like, I am too nice to hurt a puppy, but that does not mean I will not kill an ant messing in my kitchen? On the other hand, the fact that I have killed an ant does not mean I will kill a puppy?

Tyrion his killing is not on the same level as Tywins.

I feel really bad about the ant right now.

Which doesn't change my point - I didn't post that other characters wouldn't have done the same thing. Fundamentally I don't view Tyrion as being the "nice" guy that you do. Fundamentally he's selfish and delusional, and just as capable of horrible acts as the rest of his family.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Which doesn't change my point - I didn't post that other characters wouldn't have done the same thing. Fundamentally I don't view Tyrion as being the "nice" guy that you do. Fundamentally he's selfish and delusional, and just as capable of horrible acts as the rest of his family.

Bad blood? How many people are capable of ordering the death of children?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tywin was Aerys's bitch

Yeah, that's why he took his crown away from him and effecitvely ruled the realm fort twenty years.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only thing that you can really blame Tywin without projecting 21. century standards on what is effectively middle ages is sack of Kings Landing.

Unnecessary and uncalled for.

Whilst the Tysha incident is absolutely acceptable??? Other lords would just get the marriage annulled and sent the girl away.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only thing that you can really blame Tywin without projecting 21. century standards on what is effectively middle ages is sack of Kings Landing.

Unnecessary and uncalled for.

Huh? That city was getting sacked one way or another, and sacks were always brutal in real life.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Whilst the Tysha incident is absolutely acceptable??? Other lords would just get the marriage annulled and sent the girl away.

I'm not so sure about that probably other lords would chastise her as well, this is feudal society after all, peasants need to know their place rather than have ideas about marrying sons or daughters of great houses, and such ides should be beaten out of their heads. How dare she. If that was a peasant son and a lords daughter the boy would be gelded in a heart beat

It was a potentially a pretty big scandal after all, and it needed to be dealt with decisively.

I was referring more to his political and war actions in my post, but yes, it was more brutal than needed.

But that’s she thing with Tywin he always inflicted the maximum amount of violence on his enemies, sometimes it was a right course, for but sometimes it was an overkill.

Huh? That city was getting sacked one way or another, and sacks were always brutal in real life.

How was city getting sacked anyway?

Perhaps if Eddard arrived first and there was a siege, the city refused to yield, and was stormed, then it would be sacked. That’s OK, that’s within the tradition of medieval warfare.

Forts and towns that resist and refuse to surrender can expect no mercy when stormed, those who do are to be treated fairly.

But they opened their gates to Tywins army, they should have just dealt with the garrison of Red Keep and Targ loyalists, there was no need or reason to sack the population who had no intention of defiance. Like I said massive overkill.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not so sure about that probably other lords would chastise her as well, this is feudal society after all, peasants need to know their place rather than have ideas about marrying sons or daughters of great houses, and such ides should be beaten out of their heads. How dare she. If that was a peasant son and a lords daughter the boy would be gelded in a heart beat

It was a potentially a pretty big scandal after all, and it needed to be dealt with decisively.

I was referring more to his political and war actions in my post, but yes, it was more brutal than needed.

But that’s she thing with Tywin he always inflicted the maximum amount of violence on his enemies, sometimes it was a right course, for but sometimes it was an overkill.

I feel that generally everything Tywin does is a massive overkill. He always choses the most brutal solution and rarely considers any other approach, as shown in how he dealt with his father's mistress, Tysha, the Reynes, Elia Martell, Tyrion's abduction etc. It's not my 21st century moral standards talking, even the characters in ASoIaF think so. He's feared and no one dares to mock him but he also has no natural allies or friends.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×