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Panther2000

Tywin Lannister, OMG may not be that bad afterall

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1. No, Tywin is feudal lord. And he didn't kill the Tarbeck women, and in regards to the Reynes both them and the Tarbecks refused to surrender but I suppose that you "forgot" about that detail

2. You think that a guy called "the Mad King" who is held in contempt by everyone who has heard of him wouldn't have a character of...madness? I think that its interesting that you probably wouldn't doubt that Aerys horribly murdered the Starks and their companions, but at the same time can't imagine the same person slighting a character you don't like.

3. Who dies in war has about nothing to do with right and everything to do with might and luck. The Targ kids had to go and so they died, that's the price of crowning a new king.

4. He, he's not a mass murderer, he's a general. Would you call Spaatz a mass-murderer?

Very possibly misogynistic as the society he was raised and lived in is misogynistic

He is perfectly human I can assure you

He is not a sadist, because he does to our knowledge not derive pleasure from hurting others

He brought the West peace, he brough Westeros prosperity and peace and he helped to bring Tyrion into the world for a start

He did not bring Gregor Clegane into the world and Jaime and Cersei have, contrary to your belief, a will of their own

1. I did say I understood where Tywin was coming from and he had the right to put down the Reynes and Tarbecks, I can still criticize him killing the children and some men and women.

2. I never said Aerys wasn't mad but I'm not about to take the word of some Maester who obviously is biased in the regard that Tywin is made to look like a victim of Aerys when he can't even write how a princess and her royal children were brutally murdered on the orders of the man he is writing so fondly about.

3. Using deceitfulness to gain an advantage is disgusting what Tywin did by gaining access was not luck it was cruel and evil. Let's also not forget that Tywin did not know the rebels plan after Rhaegar died. He did not know that Robert and the rebels were going to crown Robert he did not know anythjng except that Rhaegar had died as far as we know. Tywin saw an advent and to take revenge for a he slights he felt that were done to him he did not know what Robert and Arryn or Ned had planned for Rhaegar's children he did it out of evilness and opportunity.

4. Yes Tywin is responsible for Gregor Cleagan and those monstrous freaks him and Joanna cursed the world with. Another persona also mentioned that Tywin gave the realm 20yrs of peace when it suited him and TWot5ks and the sack of Kings Landing when it suited him.

He's a monsters, humans can be monsters.

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One thing I always thought of Tywin was that he did things to keep power. Letting Aerys die in Duskendale would have been a huge change for him. I don't think Rhaegar would have kept him as hand, so he would have lost power. That would have been a Cersei move (getting a short term reward and then not being able to reap the bigger reward later). Tywin sees the long term affects of things rather than seeking short term achievements.


Tywin seemed to be very prickly about family pride (hence the walk of shame for his father's mistress). He hated that people laughed at his father behind his back. The slight against Cersei (not marrying your son to the "help") started sowing the seeds of Aerys downfall/ But Jaime and Cersei helped it along with naming Jaime to the KG (that's when Tywin left KL to go home and devise a new tactic to restore his pride, imo).


Just as with history, we can't put our morality onto the characters in another world. Laws and customs are different there. It's sort of like with Mance being KBtW. People in this world follow strength (hence lords switching their allegiances). Tywin did what he did to display his strength to the realm.


I also think that Aerys was also trying to not enable Tywin to overreach his strength. Cutting out Payne's tongue for his boast is a sign of that. So why would he want to marry the future king to Tywin's daughter. That would have given the Lannisters more strength. Which would have made everyone see just how powerful Tywin was during Aerys reign. Aerys didn't want that.


I think Tywin had the odds stacked against him when he started, but his reaction to the leniency of his father was too much the opposite. Rather than make men respect him, he made them fear him. Later, I think he learned that not all battles are won with the sword (think Roose's betrayal of Robb).


It is funny to see Tywin in contrast to other leaders like Robert Baratheon. RB offered his son to his Hand's daughter and turned enemies to friends rather than fearful subjects. It was mentioned more than once how Robert could turn an enemy into a friend. Or to see how Mance had to defeat the other wildling leaders to be KBtW but he never wiped out entire houses or clans.


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How?

By turning Tywin against him? He was losing the war before Tywin turned against him, in fact that's why Tywin turned against him anyway. And even in terms of turning Tywin against him, that can only be said to have led to those things very indirectly. And the thing that alienated Tywin the most was actually taking Jaime into the Kingsguard.

Clearly, his worst decision and what directly led to his death and the fall of his dynasty was to kill Lord Rickon, Brandon Stark and others and demand the deaths of Ned and Robert from Jon Arryn.

And what most directly led to his death and the destruction of the rest of his family was 1) opening the gates for Tywin and 2) wanting to burn King's Landing.

Not marrying into the Lannisters isn't even in the top 10 of his worst decisions.

:agree:, I still don't like a lot of things that Twyin did however, there is more of a back story to him. Now, I can see where he is coming from ( not that I would have done a lot of the stuff that the did).

I do agree that The King Putting Jamie in the KG was the last straw from twyin. Still twyin retired from the hand with respect toward the king. He did not bad mouth him or when leaving or pointed out that the man was BSC.

Twyin has become shades of grey for me than just the Black & White.

Now, here we go again. Twyin is gone & the Kingdom will crumble once again without him. 1st there was The King & now they will have a Mad Queen Regent ( Poor Tommen).

I would have loved to hear even more of the back story on twyin.

I will miss Charles Dance this coming season.

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Eh. I still think Tywin is pretty awful, but I will say that we understand better why he is how he is. And the Reyne/Tarbeck thing makes much more sense now - too harsh, perhaps, but he needed to make a point. Tywin's problem is that he tends to go to those extremes even when it's not necessary/has major consequences later. Such as Tyrion and Tysha - any other lord would have had the marriage annulled, maybe had Tyrion caned or something (this is a world of corporal punishment, I'm not saying caning is good), probably kept inside the castle for a good long while.

I just keep wondering how things might have been had Steffon stuck around. The book says he was part of the Aerys and Tywin friendship circle, and I'm wondering if perhaps he might have balanced them out had he stayed. I mean we don't know that, but it's certainly possible.

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Yes Tywin would have still turned on Aerys.

Rhaegar would have still took Lyanna and Tywin seeing a chance to have his grandchildren inherit would have still taken out Aerys and Rhaegar and Lyanna and her child too if he knew she had a baby with Rhaegar.

Tywin is a monster he's not above anything as we see in ASOIAF. And Aerys saw inside Cersei's soul he knew anything Tywin spawned would not be good and should not marry into his family or breed with his heir. Aerys knew that Tywin and his were not worthy to marry into the royally family and they weren't that's why they married into a usurped bastard family that at the end of it all is not worthy.

Thats intresting. If Aerys was indeed capable of seeing into someones soul one would think that he would not fuck up everything he did so royally. Tywin migth be bad, but Aerys is the real monster here. And if Aerys had Tywins backing in the rebellion the royalists would have won. The combined Migth of the Westerlands and the Reach and the crownlands would overwhelm the rebellion alliance. When JonCon chased Robert to the Stonysept he could have recived reinforcements from the westerlands, thus not beiing defeated by the rebels. Dorne would likely not take any side, and if they did they would most likely side with the targaryens as they was not involved with the rebels in any way. That would leave the riches and the realms with most manpower, beside loyalists from the stormlands, the riverlands and Crownlands. And if Cersei married Rhaegar and broke up with Jaime, he would have been free to marry and whom would he marry? The daughter of Lord Hoster Tully, tying the riverlands to the royalist cause, whom strong riverlands houses backed anyway. Aerys decicion to mock Tywin fucked him up.

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Thats intresting. If Aerys was indeed capable of seeing into someones soul one would think that he would not fuck up everything he did so royally. Tywin migth be bad, but Aerys is the real monster here. And if Aerys had Tywins backing in the rebellion the royalists would have won. The combined Migth of the Westerlands and the Reach and the crownlands would overwhelm the rebellion alliance. When JonCon chased Robert to the Stonysept he could have recived reinforcements from the westerlands, thus not beiing defeated by the rebels. Dorne would likely not take any side, and if they did they would most likely side with the targaryens as they was not involved with the rebels in any way. That would leave the riches and the realms with most manpower, beside loyalists from the stormlands, the riverlands and Crownlands. And if Cersei married Rhaegar and broke up with Jaime, he would have been free to marry and whom would he marry? The daughter of Lord Hoster Tully, tying the riverlands to the royalist cause, whom strong riverlands houses backed anyway. Aerys decicion to mock Tywin fucked him up.

Cersei would have never broken up with Jaime because Rhaegar would have shattered her perfect world when he married her.

People keep leaving out the fact that Rhaegar probably wouldn't have a wanted that marriage and still ran off with Lyanna. Marrying Cersei to Rhaegar would not have fixed everything.

And I don't know how being mocked turns anybody into a monster Tywin should have told Aerys where to stick his Hand position and than went back to his Rock to pay attention to his children. Instead Tywin decided to suffer the slights to have power and he stayed close to Aerys taking the hits because he wanted more and when he couldn't get it that's when he decided he wasn't taking Aerys shit anymore.

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And I don't know how being mocked turns anybody into a monster Tywin should have told Aerys where to stick his Hand position and than went back to his Rock to pay attention to his children. Instead Tywin decided to suffer the slights to have power and he stayed close to Aerys taking the hits because he wanted more and when he couldn't get it that's when he decided he wasn't taking Aerys shit anymore.

Tywin did try and resign but Aerys would not allow it. So he had no choice but to go on. Aerys only accepted a resignation when he took Jaime into the kingsguard. Before that he was terrified to sack Tywin, even though Tywin had asked to go.

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Tywin did try and resign but Aerys would not allow it. So he had no choice but to go on. Aerys only accepted a resignation when he took Jaime into the kingsguard. Before that he was terrified to sack Tywin, even though Tywin had asked to go.

Aerys couldn't make Tywin do anything he didn't want to. All Aerys did first was forbid it and all Tywin had to do was tell Aerys "no" I doubt Aerys would have forced the issue Tywin still managed to resign when he wanted to.

Tywin wanted the power that Aerys being the only one could give him, he wanted to marry his daughter into the royal family that's why he stayed close and took Aerys insults. Tywin was not some helpless victim of Aerys when all he had to do was to tell Aerys bye and pack up and go to the Rock.

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Aerys couldn't make Tywin do anything he didn't want to. All Aerys did first was forbid it and all Tywin had to do was tell Aerys "no" I doubt Aerys would have forced the issue Tywin still managed to resign when he wanted to.

Tywin wanted the power that Aerys being the only one could give him, he wanted to marry his daughter into the royal family that's why he stayed close and took Aerys insults. Tywin was not some helpless victim of Aerys when all he had to do was to tell Aerys bye and pack up and go to the Rock.

Aerys could have had Tywin arrested or charged with treason if he resigned without Aerys's consent. By 272 the king was clearly in humiliate Tywin mode and would not have taken no for an answer. If you read the book Aerys only accepted Tywin's resignation when he had Jaime in his KG. He is explicitly said to be unwilling to have Tywin out of his sight before that.

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Aerys could have had Tywin arrested or charged with treason if he resigned without Aerys's consent. By 272 the king was clearly in humiliate Tywin mode and would not have taken no for an answer.

Aerys feared Tywin even after he was held hostage and he got more paranoid thinking Tywin wanted him to die so Rhaegar could marry Cersei and take the throne he did not have Tywin arrested on treason charages. Let's not make Tywin out powerless in Aerys' court I wouldn't be suprised if half of Aerys royal court were Tywin's men.

Aerys was not going to make a open enemy of Tywin like that he feared him too much Aerys was going to make sly comments and disrespect him in his cups, he would have never challenged Tywin so openly.

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Aerys could have had Tywin arrested or charged with treason if he resigned without Aerys's consent. By 272 the king was clearly in humiliate Tywin mode and would not have taken no for an answer. If you read the book Aerys only accepted Tywin's resignation when he had Jaime in his KG. He is explicitly said to be unwilling to have Tywin out of his sight before that.

YUP!

Aerys made his own bastard son the soul heir to Casterly Rock while at the same time stealing Tywin's trueborn son away from him and ensuring the end of the Lannister line through Tywin. Good move Aerys.

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Aerys feared Tywin even after he was held hostage and he got more paranoid thinking Tywin wanted him to die so Rhaegar could marry Cersei and take the throne he did not have Tywin arrested on treason charages. Let's not make Tywin out powerless in Aerys' court I wouldn't be suprised if half of Aerys royal court were Tywin's men.

Not sure Aerys's fears were entirely without foundation there.

I'm not saying Tywin was powerless but clearly the king could arrest him and even have him killed if he wished. He did that with the Starks.

Aerys was not going to make a open enemy of Tywin like that he feared him too much Aerys was going to make sly comments and disrespect him in his cups, he would have never challenged Tywin so openly.

It seemed like Aerys became pretty open in his dislike and disrespect for Tywin to me. I also think he raped his wife. So yea ...

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Not sure Aerys's fears were entirely without foundation there.

I'm not saying Tywin was powerless but clearly the king could arrest him and even have him killed if he wished. He did that with the Starks.

It seemed like Aerys became pretty open in his dislike and disrespect for Tywin to me. I also think he raped his wife. So yea ...

Tywin is more smart and effective than Aerys he knew how crazy he was Im sure Tywin had a plan to leave Kings Landing really quick if he ever thought Aerys would arrest and kill him.

I think Aerys was too scared to do anything to Joanna he was just scared of Tywin period

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Cersei has always been evil. The story of Tyrion as a baby that Obern tells is an example. Another is that she kills her friend after she visits the magi.

Aerys wouldn't have known about anything like that though. I doubt even Jaime knows what happened with Melara.

Kevan was more likely to know Cersei better than Aerys would have and Kevan didn't seem to have had a clue back then about Cersei's true nature.

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What exactly has Tywin done that a savvy, smart leader would do? Absulotely nothing. People fear him and in the end his house will fall as a result. Honeslty, does he have one real ally? Will anyone fight or die for his family without money or fear?


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Tywin is more smart and effective than Aerys he knew how crazy he was Im sure Tywin had a plan to leave Kings Landing really quick if he ever thought Aerys would arrest and kill him.

He might have done but then he'd have risked being declared a traitor, or a renegade. Aerys would have taken it as a sign of obvious disloyalty.

I think Aerys was too scared to do anything to Joanna he was just scared of Tywin period

Actually, Aerys doesn't come over as scared of Tywin until sometime after 272.

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What exactly has Tywin done that a savvy, smart leader would do? Absulotely nothing. People fear him and in the end his house will fall as a result. Honeslty, does he have one real ally? Will anyone fight or die for his family without money or fear?

Read Feast for Crows. The Lannister bannermen seem to be as loyal without Tywin as they were with him.

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What exactly has Tywin done that a savvy, smart leader would do? Absulotely nothing. People fear him and in the end his house will fall as a result. Honeslty, does he have one real ally? Will anyone fight or die for his family without money or fear?

He makes intelligent moves such as making for BW, avoiding Robb's army, and defeating Stannis in the meantime. He made a smart political alliance by joining with the Freys, Tyrells, and Boltons. He avoided losing any men during Robert's Rebellion, then chooses the winning side, and gives his daughter to the newly appointed king, earning himself favor in the new reign. The man is smart and effective, and to say he has done absolutely nothing savvy or smart is ignorance, and you shouldn't take things so personally.

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The book was dedicated to Tommen and majority of the KL info came from Pycelle. Tywin may have been badass, but not the way this book portrays him.


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