Tywin Lannister, OMG may not be that bad afterall

[Lady Jeyne Reyne]

Really?

I can understand Tywin putting down the Reyne and Tarbecks because they were rebelling and causing chaos in the west with their actions. Though he took it too far when he killed all the innocent men, women and children whose only crime was serving their liege lords. Tywin is a mass murderer and a monster.

Even if Aerys did all that was said of him in the world book(and I say IF hugely because the Maester is obviously very biased in the Lannister's favor especially Tywin's)that still gives Tywin no right to sick a child murdering little freak and 7ft tall unstable sadistic monster on a fragile woman and her babies. Aerys couldn't have said or done anything for his grandchildren or daughter-in-law to have suffered and died the way they did.

Tywin is a mass murderer, a mysoginistic, a inhumane oppressor, and down right evil he had a child raped by probably a bunch of violent war hardened soldiers than walked his father's mistress across a city nekid just to strip her of her power. Tywin is a sadistic fuck who brought the world nothing but violence, rape, murder, Gregor Clegan, Jaime and Cersei, and just anarchy.

I say "mass murderer and Monster"! I mean who else but a monster would kill every man woman and child in a great house? Think of all the innocents that died a horrible death down in those mines. Tywin Lannister deserved his fate!

[marsyao]

Even Egg's own son(the heir to the Iron Throne)married a very lowborn girl a smallfolk yet he didn't do anything near that Tywin did because Tywin is a monster.

And that ended very well, was it? Besides, did his son ask his leave before the marriage? And was his son's wife a daughter of copper?

[The Wolves]

And that ended very well, was it? Besides, did his son ask his leave before the marriage? And was his son's wife a daughter of copper?

So? but he didn't have Jenny raped by a bunch of hardened soldiers.

It wasn't the greatest move but Egg the most powerful man and King of Westeros didn't retort to a disgusting act and he had the power to do it and get away with it but he didn't do it. Yes everybody reacts differently to situations but what Tywin did to Tasha was nasty and evil.

[marsyao]

So? but he didn't have Jenny raped by a bunch of hardened soldiers.

It wasn't the greatest move but Egg the most powerful man and King of Westeros didn't retort to a disgusting act and he had the power to do it and get away with it but he didn't do it. Yes everybody reacts differently to situations but what Tywin did to Tasha was nasty and evil.

1) Egg is no Tywin

2) Jenny is much higher born than Tyshia

3) They ask Egg's leave BEFORE they got married

[thelittledragonthatcould]

So? but he didn't have Jenny raped by a bunch of hardened soldiers.

It wasn't the greatest move but Egg the most powerful man and King of Westeros didn't retort to a disgusting act and he had the power to do it and get away with it but he didn't do it. Yes everybody reacts differently to situations but what Tywin did to Tasha was nasty and evil.

Duncan was old enough to make that decision himself.

Duncan also asked his father's permission and did not get married till it was given.

Egg at least knew Jenny before the marriage, rather than be surprised by it.

The Lords walked all over Egg partly because they saw that his children did. Lyonel proclaimed himself the Storm King, there were bitter consequences to allowing his children do what they wanted.

It could be argued that Tywin gave Tyrion the better option. Tyrion didn't really know anything about Tysha and had Tywin removed him from Casterly Rock, the riches that came with it and the Lannister succession would she really have stood by him. Or would the 13 year old dwarf be left with nothing.

Rape is a disgusting crime. That cannot be repeated enough. But I don't think Tywin was picking on Tyrion or Tysha(he, like many Lords, just does not see the peasants on the same level as nobility) as I think similar fates would have befallen peasants who ran off and married Cersei and Jaime at 13. A man most certainly would have been killed as well.

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

Jenny claimed distant descent from ancient kings (presumably the Mudds) but there's no proof she was anything other than a peasant (and those things aren't mutually exclusive either. There's probably a ton of smallfolk who are extremely distantly descended from ancient royalty)

Duncan did not have Aegon's permission before marry Jenny, at least as the story is related in the World Book. It explicitly says that Egg attempted to have the marriage undone. That couldn't have been the case unless Duncan and Jenny had already wed, and if they had gotten Aegon's permission to do so beforehand, he wouldn't have asked them to undo it. Clearly they married without Egg's permission. Maybe they asked, but if they had then Egg would probably have realized that attempting to undo the marriage was futile if they had already gone against his wishes.

[Northern light]

Did any of the Greystarks survive? When the Starks was conquering the North we learn that "one by one, the Starks subdued them all, and during these struggles, many proud houses and ancient lines were extinguished forever."

When the Starks had to suppress the Skagosi wanting independence, thousands died in the process.

I doubt the Starks and Lannisters are alone in being cruel to their enemies in the past, it is how all the major Kings rose to dominate their regions.

How come that the Boltons still exists? Or the Brackens? Yronwoods? Peakes? etc etc. Personally I believe that the major reason for a more "significant" house to go extinct is other circumstances than rebellion. For example, the ruling lord dies without any possible heirs. For example as for the Darrys.

[John Suburbs]

Tywin is one of the baddest lords in the story, but is he the worst? If you were to be held prisoner by a high lord, would you rather it be Casterly Rock or the Dreadfort?

[The Wolves]

Rape is a disgusting crime. That cannot be repeated enough. But I don't think Tywin was picking on Tyrion or Tysha(he, like many Lords, just does not see the peasants on the same level as nobility) as I think similar fates would have befallen peasants who ran off and married Cersei and Jaime at 13. A man most certainly would have been killed as well.

I don't think he would have had any man that Cersei ran off with raped he probably would have hanged him or have him sent to the Night's Watch.

And rape is about power Tywin was picking on Tyrion and Tasha by throwing around his power as a great lord and Tywin's father he's monstrous.

[glamourweaver]

We are talking about a Lord in Medieval age

Yes - and having a subject raped would be recognized as a horrific crime in the Middle Ages.*

*The social sanction of martial rape not withstanding

[The hairy bear]

I doubt the Starks and Lannisters are alone in being cruel to their enemies in the past, it is how all the major Kings rose to dominate their regions.

No one is saying that Tywin Lannister has the monopoly of being an evil person. There have been plenty of horrible people in the past, and the Stark lineage really seems to have lots of them.

1) Egg is no Tywin

Exactly. One is a decent person. The other is not.

In the Medieval or Westero, what Tysha did is a horrible offense which deserve a severe punishment (How dare an lowborn like her has the audacity to insult a Lord of a great House on such a degree?), if Tywin simply put Tysha to death, then people, highborn or low, would all agree that is a punishment fit for the crime, and nobody would say a bad word about it, but being Tywin when the honor of his house is threat, like he always did, he went one step overboard, he refused to accept the fact that this is just a folly of a silly lowborn girl, he rather choose to believe she was a whore who somehow managed to trick his son astray, so she would not be put to death like a criminal, but would be given to his guards to use as a whore. Is it cruel? Yes, but he did not live in the modern time, in the Medieval age, he had right to do what he did, and smallfolks had been punished more severely for less offense than Tysha did, people would think Tywin was a cruel Lord (by the way, would Tywin care?), but nobody would think he committed any crime. Bronn was appalled by the way Tywin treated Tyrion, made him watch and ordered him be the last one etc., he did not show any sympathy to Tysha

What Tywin did to Tysha and Tyrion is also horrible by Westerosi standards. You can repeat as much as you like that "the honor of his house is at stake" or "he went one step overboard" (one? try ten thousand!), but it'll be what it is.

You'll have to admit at least that most of the lords in Westeros would have acted much more humanly in Tywin's situatuon. All of them would have the marriage anulled. Most would have also sent Tysha to the Free Cities. A few of the worse lords would have covertly killed her. But the levels of mindless cruelty of Tywin's actions makes him a real monster.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

How come that the Boltons still exists? Or the Brackens? Yronwoods? Peakes? etc etc.

I would guess it has to do with the power of the House. When the Greystarks joined the Boltons in rebelling I imagine that the Stark in charge wanted to give them the same punishment but one House was able to survive.

We know that at one time the Starks held the Dreadfort under siege for two years before the Boltons surrendered. Some Houses are too powerful to destroy.

[Poppa Bolton]

Does what he has to do? He had Tysha gang-raped to teach Tyrion a lesson, I'm not even remotely sure how that can be claimed to be pragmatism or anything of the sort.

If you want to make an omelet, you have to break a few eggs.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Duncan was old enough to make that decision himself.

Duncan also asked his father's permission and did not get married till it was given.

Egg at least knew Jenny before the marriage, rather than be surprised by it.

The Lords walked all over Egg partly because they saw that his children did. Lyonel proclaimed himself the Storm King, there were bitter consequences to allowing his children do what they wanted.

It could be argued that Tywin gave Tyrion the better option. Tyrion didn't really know anything about Tysha and had Tywin removed him from Casterly Rock, the riches that came with it and the Lannister succession would she really have stood by him. Or would the 13 year old dwarf be left with nothing.

Rape is a disgusting crime. That cannot be repeated enough. But I don't think Tywin was picking on Tyrion or Tysha(he, like many Lords, just does not see the peasants on the same level as nobility) as I think similar fates would have befallen peasants who ran off and married Cersei and Jaime at 13. A man most certainly would have been killed as well.

Again, Tyrion was a minor, and had to bribe a drunken septon for him to do it. All Tywin had to do was have the marriage anulled, which he probably ended up doing anyway.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Again, Tyrion was a minor, and had to bribe a drunken septon for him to do it. All Tywin had to do was have the marriage anulled, which he probably ended up doing anyway.

Well, sure. Gared had been a long servent to the Nights Watch, Ned could have just sent him back. Theon was just an innocent kid, he could have left him with his mother.

The Lords of Westeros rarely let things slide, if they feel there has been a wrongdoing, then they punish it and rarely leniently.

[Lady Baela Targaryen]

2) Jenny is much higher born than Tyshia

Huh? Jenny was a commoner. Even if she really was a descendant of the Mudds, they went extinct thousands of years ago.

[stangles]

Basically Tywin valued the lesson he was teaching Tyrion (In his head he was revealing to his son what she 'really' was) over the girls value of life. He didn't give a s*** about her. Tywin doesn't take pleasure in his evil acts only the result. I would put him a step below evil like Ramsay etc because Ramsay loves to cause pain. Tywin just doesn't give a S*** about others. Even his love of his family is probably more of a love of his own pride and what he perceives to be an extension of himself. He is a narcissist just like little finger.

Is there even one minute example of a small kindness done to anyone where nothing was expected in return? I think he is a bad person. He is an effective ruler but he would certainly earn himself a place in hell if there was such a place.

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

Well, sure. Gared had been a long servent to the Nights Watch, Ned could have just sent him back. Theon was just an innocent kid, he could have left him with his mother.

The Lords of Westeros rarely let things slide, if they feel there has been a wrongdoing, then they punish it and rarely leniently.

Those are pretty terrible analogies. Hell if Tywin had defeated the Reynes and Tarbecks, but not utterly eliminated them, and took their children as wards/hostages akin to Theon (and treated them as Ned did Theon), people would think far more highly of him. What Tywin did to Tysha was wanton and completely outside of any laws (regardless of how tenuous any idea of law is) of Westeros

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Basically Tywin valued the lesson he was teaching Tyrion (In his head he was revealing to his son what she 'really' was) over the girls value of life. He didn't give a s*** about her. Tywin doesn't take pleasure in his evil acts only the result. I would put him a step below evil like Ramsay etc because Ramsay loves to cause pain. Tywin just doesn't give a S*** about others. Even his love of his family is probably more of a love of his own pride and what he perceives to be an extension of himself. He is a narcissist just like little finger.

Is there even one minute example of a small kindness done to anyone where nothing was expected in return? I think he is a bad person. He is an effective ruler but he would certainly earn himself a place in hell if there was such a place.

I agree with this. We have to remember Tywin’s thought process, and his having grown up suffering his father’s follies. In his mind the sharp lessons are the one’s best taught. I will never approve of what happened to Tysha or Rhaegar’s children, but I do have more empathy for Tywin.

One man’s monster is another man’s messiah. Like Genna Lannister said, how could she not love the big brother that shielded her when no one else would, or a man that comes along every once in a generation.

[The hairy bear]

Theon was just an innocent kid, he could have left him with his mother.

As the RWoC says, using Greyjoy's rebellion as an example of how harsh punishments are usual in Westeros is really odd, as it proves exactly the opposite:

• What Balon did (unprovoked attacks at the mainland) was far worse than what the Tarbecks and the Reynes did (not paying taxes).

Robert was in a much weaker position than Tywin, being in a newfounded dinasty with many enemies at home and a rival claimant at the other side of the Narrow Sea.

Still after the rebellion, Balon was left alive, Euron was left alive, Victartion has left alive, Aeron was left alive, Asha was left alive, and only Theon was kept as a hostage by a major lord who treated him honorably and raised him among his own children.