Free Northman Reborn Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 In the World Book, the smallfolk believed that Cannibal had been on Dragonstone long before the Targaryens arrived there. I have theorized that this could mean that he is not from the Targaryen dragon-lineage. The fact that he therefore would not share the blood bond between Targaryens and their dragons would explain why he could never be mastered by any Dragonseed. It would also explain why he constantly attacked and ate the offspring of Targaryen dragons. This got me thinking about the other wild dragons - Grey Ghost and Sheepstealer. We know that they could not be mastered by any of the Targaryen Dragonseeds either. Could they therefore also be from the Cannibal's lineage, only born AFTER the Targaryen's arrived? If so, there would be no way for the Targaryens to know that they were not born from eggs laid by Targaryen dragons, given that their births took place during the Targaryen era. Up to now no one could really explain why Nettles was able to master Sheepstealer where all the other Dragonseeds failed. The assumption was that she had some hidden Targaryen blood, but that has never been proven. And if that was the case, it would beg the question why none of the other Targaryen Dragonseeds could not achieve the same? If Sheepstealer and Grey Ghost were both from the Cannibal's wild lineage, it would explain these anomalies perfectly. It might even explain why the Grey Ghost eventually attacked Sunfire, when he sensed him to be weakened. The fact that the Cannibal eventually devoured Grey Ghost's corpse might simply be because Cannibal had by this point developed a taste for dragonmeat and was willing to devour any dragon corpse he could find, even if it was one from his own family. It might also explain why no previous dragon remnants were found on Dragonstone - because Cannibal ate any dead dragons and left no traces of them to be found by anyone. So my hypothesis is that all the Wild Dragons that could not be tamed by Dragonseeds, were in fact not from the Targaryen dragon lineage. Even Sheepstealer, who was then tamed in some other way by a non-Targaryen - maybe because she had some warging or other ability. It would also mean that Nettles has no need for any Targaryen blood to explain her achievement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 WOIAF confirms Nettles as a 'dragonseed'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maid So Fair Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 WOIAF confirms Nettles as a 'dragonseed'. It does? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hardstone Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Didn't Sunfyre eat Meleys' corpse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 It does? On the page, right after they tell the Dance with Dragons story. There is a list in a box, of all dragonriders and their dragons. It has Nettles listed as a 'dragonseed' who rode Sheepstealer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis's Lawyer Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 On the page, right after they tell the Dance with Dragons story. There is a list in a box, of all dragonriders and their dragons. It has Nettles listed as a 'dragonseed' who rode Sheepstealer. What that confirms is that Yandel thinks Nettles was a dragonseed. It does not prove she was a dragonseed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 What that confirms is that Yandel thinks Nettles was a dragonseed. It does not prove she was a dragonseed. To me it does, and there is certainly no evidence to the contrary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maid So Fair Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 On the page, right after they tell the Dance with Dragons story. There is a list in a box, of all dragonriders and their dragons. It has Nettles listed as a 'dragonseed' who rode Sheepstealer. Since Yandel does not mention having uncovered some new source material that sounds just like him repeating the official story as outlined in tPatQ, presumably the defining work on the subject. I certainly would not call it conclusive evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Since Yandel does not mention having uncovered some new source material that sounds just like him repeating the official story as outlined in tPatQ, presumably the defining work on the subject. I certainly would not call it conclusive evidence. Well, show me even one piece of evidence that Nettles is not a 'dragonseed' and it will make sense to question the writing, otherwise, the case is closed. ETA: What I mean is, no one in the books ever questions the fact that Targs are the ones who ride dragons, the only reason we on the forum do, is because certain members are constantly saying that dragonblood is not needed (without any evidence). But in the reality of the books, this is not the case. So there is no reason to question it, especially when it is confirmed over and over and over like this. There is no evidence to the contrary, so what is the point of the argument? For instance, it never says anywhere specifically that Targaryens cannot warg Direwolves, but we all know they can't, just from reading the books and using our common sense to understand the writing. I could make a whole thread about how, theoretically, 'Targs can warg direwolves', based on the fact that no one has ever flat out said 'they could not'. But what a waste of time that would be, just like this argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted November 5, 2014 Author Share Posted November 5, 2014 Well, show me even one piece of evidence that Nettles is not a 'dragonseed' and it will make sense to question the writing, otherwise, the case is closed. ETA: What I mean is, no one in the books ever questions the fact that Targs are the ones who ride dragons, the only reason we on the forum do, is because certain members are constantly saying that dragonblood is not needed (without any evidence). But in the reality of the books, this is not the case. So there is no reason to question it, especially when it is confirmed over and over and over like this. There is no evidence to the contrary, so what is the point of the argument? Hang on. There is some circular logic going on here. You counter my theory that Sheepstealer was not a Targaryen lineage dragon, by saying that Nettles mastered her by having Targaryen blood. And your evidence for this is that Nettles mastered Sheepstealer! But if my theory is true, and Sheepstealer was not descended from a Targaryen dragon, then Nettles need not be a dragonseed (Targaryen seed) to master her. So the circle of your logic is broken. I fully agree that Targaryen blood is needed to master a Targaryen dragon. But Targaryen blood is useless for mastering any dragon not descended from the 5 dragons brought from Valyria by Aenar Targaryen 400 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Hang on. There is some circular logic going on here. You counter my theory that Sheepstealer was not a Targaryen lineage dragon, by saying that Nettles mastered her by having Targaryen blood. And your evidence for this is that Nettles mastered Sheepstealer! But if my theory is true, and Sheepstealer was not descended from a Targaryen dragon, then Nettles need not be a dragonseed (Targaryen seed) to master her. So the circle of your logic is broken. I fully agree that Targaryen blood is needed to master a Targaryen dragon. But Targaryen blood is useless for mastering any dragon not descended from the 5 dragons brought from Valyria by Aenar Targaryen 400 years ago. no no, I dont know the origins of Sheepstealer, I fully admit. Just saying to you that Nettles was confirmed as a dragonseed in WOIAF. But WOIAF does confirm a few times, that Valyrians are the ones who have the gift of taming dragons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 If I'm understanding the theory in the op correctly, Nettles would have to have the blood of another Valyrian dragon family tho correct? That blood would have come from before the Targs ever came to dragonstone by whatever dragonlord raised the fortress who's dragon laid eggs, presumably? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted November 5, 2014 Author Share Posted November 5, 2014 no no, I dont know the origins of Sheepstealer, I fully admit. Just saying to you that Nettles was confirmed as a dragonseed in WOIAF. But the World Book seems to base that on the inference that anyone who managed to master a dragon is by default a dragonseed. It certainly does not base it on any evidence that she had a known Targaryen in her ancestry. Furthermore, I contend that surely the stronger ones Targaryen ancestry (i.e. the greater the percentage of Targaryen blood in your veins) the greater your chances of mastering a Targaryen dragon. So why would she succeed - even if she has dollop of distant Targaryen blood in her veins - where other dragonseeds have failed? It certainly supports a case for Sheepstealer not being a Targaryen dragon. At least, it does not detract from that theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 The Cannibal may have been not a Targaryen lineage dragon. But it seems that there is no reason to assume the same for Grey Ghost and Sheepstealer. If the Cannibal did not mate with any Targaryen dragons he could not have produced any offspring. And then his offspring would be partial Targaryen dragons. The idea that the Cannibal is this old is intriguing but it does not seem to be all that likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted November 5, 2014 Author Share Posted November 5, 2014 If I'm understanding the theory in the op correctly, Nettles would have to have the blood of another Valyrian dragon family tho correct? That blood would have come from before the Targs ever came to dragonstone by whatever dragonlord raised the fortress who's dragon laid eggs, presumably? No. My contention is that Cannibal and his clan are descended from non-Valyrian dragons. There were dragons all over the world once. Long before the Valyrians bonded their first dragon in Valyria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted November 5, 2014 Author Share Posted November 5, 2014 The Cannibal may have been not a Targaryen lineage dragon. But it seems that there is no reason to assume the same for Grey Ghost and Sheepstealer. If the Cannibal did not mate with any Targaryen dragons he could not have produced any offspring. And then his offspring would be partial Targaryen dragons. The idea that the Cannibal is this old is intriguing but it does not seem to be all that likely. No, I'm saying that the Cannibal was not alone. He was part of a small colony that survived on Dragonstone, from before Valyrian times. By the way, do we know if dragons even mate? My understanding was that they change sex periodically. Or that they are both male and female. Since they were created artifically, through magic, do we know if you even need two dragons to mate before one can reproduce? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 I believe it is eluded to in tpatq several times that dragons mate. Pairings are spoken of multiple times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted November 5, 2014 Author Share Posted November 5, 2014 I believe it is eluded to in tpatq several times that dragons mate. Pairings are spoken of multiple times. OK. Thanks for clarifying that. Which to me means that for the Cannibal non-Targaryen dragon theory to be true, he either had to have been the last of his little colony - much like King Kong in the movie was the last of his species left on Skull Island - or he still had one or two smaller dragons hidden in his lair, namely Grey Ghost and Sheepstealer. Or perhaps, their eggs had been laid some time before the last of his colony members died out, and for some reason only hatched later. In any case, for Cannibal to be a surviving dragon from a non-Targaryen lineage, he had to have quite an interesting back story. Which might well include other non-Targaryen dragons. Another option, is a lost Valyrian dragon from before Targaryen times. Say from the massive dragon war against the Rhoynar. Maybe some of the 300 dragon riders in that war fell to Rhoynish wizards, and some of the now riderless dragons flew off to the West, eventually settling on Dragonstone, forming their own little colony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 But the World Book seems to base that on the inference that anyone who managed to master a dragon is by default a dragonseed. It certainly does not base it on any evidence that she had a known Targaryen in her ancestry. Furthermore, I contend that surely the stronger ones Targaryen ancestry (i.e. the greater the percentage of Targaryen blood in your veins) the greater your chances of mastering a Targaryen dragon. So why would she succeed - even if she has dollop of distant Targaryen blood in her veins - where other dragonseeds have failed? It certainly supports a case for Sheepstealer not being a Targaryen dragon. At least, it does not detract from that theory. Infinite improbability. The perfect mix of genes over the years = 1 lone dragon rider, out of hundreds of seeds who were unsuccesful. Stands to reason that a few of the seeds who came forth would be successful. All we know of Nettles is that she was baseborn, so some Targ slept with a Summer-Islander servant at one point, her mother or grandmother. I think she is made more complicated than she needs to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maid So Fair Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Well, show me even one piece of evidence that Nettles is not a 'dragonseed' and it will make sense to question the writing, otherwise, the case is closed. ETA: What I mean is, no one in the books ever questions the fact that Targs are the ones who ride dragons, the only reason we on the forum do, is because certain members are constantly saying that dragonblood is not needed (without any evidence). But in the reality of the books, this is not the case. So there is no reason to question it, especially when it is confirmed over and over and over like this. There is no evidence to the contrary, so what is the point of the argument? For instance, it never says anywhere specifically that Targaryens cannot warg Direwolves, but we all know they can't, just from reading the books and using our common sense to understand the writing. I could make a whole thread about how, theoretically, 'Targs can warg direwolves', based on the fact that no one has ever flat out said 'they could not'. But what a waste of time that would be, just like this argument. Because the person to formulate the theory - Maester Galdayn, never offers any evidence of his claims apart from oh I guess she must have been since she rode a dragon. He (and we) know next to nothing about Nettles - who her ancestors were, where she came from, even whether she was actually born on Dragonstone. There is no evidence she is a dragonseed apart from circular logic. People repeating the notion does not make it any more true. She might or might not have had a Targ in her family tree, but until we see it we will never know. As for direwolves, well, Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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