Cannibal, Sheepstealer and Grey Ghost - non-Targaryen dragons?

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Here is the evidence for a person with no Targ blood riding a dragon:

The first Ser Artys Arryn supposedly rode upon a huge falcon (possibly a distorted memory of dragonriders seen from afar, Archmaester Perestan suggests). Armies of eagles fought at his command.

Something was moving atop one of them, he saw.

A dragon, but which one? At this distance, it could as easily have been an eagle. A very big eagle.

It is also as good as confirmed that historical Azor Ahai, the Last Hero, Ser Artys Arryn the Winged Knight and all the other Long Night heroes in Essos were the same person and the Lightbringer they used was a dragon.

I see no evidence in this post. I see legend and a Falcon.

[Maia]

. It is so widely assumed that you need Targaryen blood to tame dragons that generally only Targaryens try. Indeed, generally only Targaryens have the opportunity to try. The one time we know of when it was thrown open to people to try, several people known to have Targaryen blood failed, whilst several people of uncertain ancestry succeeded.In short: It's widely believed that Targaryen blood is required to ride dragons.

Well, I don't see any evidence that anybody had been actively prevented from trying to claim any of the wild dragons in the past. In fact, we were told that there had been attempts to claim Cannibal and that his lair was littered with the bones of "would-be dragonriders".

We also have evidence that Dany's dragons didn't develop any bond with her handmaids, despite the latter helping to feed them and care for them since the day they had been hatched. But they did like Brown Ben Plumm the first time they saw him.

Also, there is the fact that all of the people who succeeded at claiming the dragons either had known Targ pedigree (Addam), or were natives of Dragonstone, where Targaryen blood would have been particularly widespread and concentrated among the relatively small population.

Did Steffon Darklyn or Gormon Massey have Targ blood so that Rhaenyra risked her LC of the KG and her Lord of Stonedance to tame a dragon? Did Jon Roxton have Targ blood too? How about those anonymous knights trying to tame dragons?

Do you have any proof that Darklyn and Massey didn't have any Targaryen blood, maybe through a Velaryon or a Celtigar (who could have got it from intermarriage with Velaryons) ancestor ? No? Then, maybe, Rhaenyra did have reasons to hope that they could have been successful.

After all, it has been mentioned in the Conquest chapter that Masseys had grown close to the lords of the Narrow Sea during the century after the Doom, and they were among Aegon's first supporters.

As to Roxton and Co., I assume that they had applied the same logic as you - i.e. if those bastards of uncertain ancestry could succed, then maybe Targaryen blood wasn't required, after all. But it didn't work out for them, so...

[RumHam]

You are right that merely saying that her parents were, IDK, some random fishermen or generally no one of consequence wouldn't necessarily be a contradiction, but that just moves the uncertainty a few generations back without getting to the crux of the matter (where does the dragon blood come from?). Saying she was a known or speculated dragonseed, would be a contradiction IMHO because then why go into a detailed description of her appearance if the answer to the riddle is obvious? But her family is never mentioned (even when speculating where she might have disappeared off to) and she appears to be 16 years old girl acting on her own, quite unusual in her society.

Being a highborn bastard of a powerful Lord is a higher social status than being a trueborn commoner, especially if it gets you a dragon to ride so in absence of any other relevant identity the seed status would be used. Brown Ben Plumm still boasts of the little drop of dragon blood several generations later. Or maybe she's really a bastard.

Well I don't think she was a highborn bastard. Her father or grandfather may have been a Targaryen (I've even seen people speculate that Daemon was her father. Yuk.) and the mother a commoner. I think you're reading too much into the editing of the story. There were some truly odd editing choices there, things happening out of order, Maelor's death just being referred to in passing. If Glydayn knew or had a theory on who Nettles' Targaryen father/ancestor was that was more than a couple sentences long I could totally see it being cut for space in favor of the brief description of her appearance that we do get.

Here is the evidence for a person with no Targ blood riding a dragon:

The first Ser Artys Arryn supposedly rode upon a huge falcon (possibly a distorted memory of dragonriders seen from afar, Archmaester Perestan suggests). Armies of eagles fought at his command.

Something was moving atop one of them, he saw.

A dragon, but which one? At this distance, it could as easily have been an eagle. A very big eagle.

It is also as good as confirmed that historical Azor Ahai, the Last Hero, Ser Artys Arryn the Winged Knight and all the other Long Night heroes in Essos were the same person and the Lightbringer they used was a dragon.

I think you should look up what confirmed means.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Grey Ghost - The reason he was never ridden was that he was shy. The Valyrian dragons "were bred for battle". That implies a breeding program, with dragons unsuitable for battle existing, but being left out of the breeding program. Grey Ghost seems to be a genetic aberration, a shy dragon, that would be passed over in the breeding program, but aberrations like that crop up in any breeding program. There's no evidence Grey Ghost is not descended from other dragons the Targs brought to Dragonstone.

The fact that Cannibal and Sheepstealer were hard or impossible to bind is probably because they were allowed to get too old. Cannibal's cannibalism, however, may support FNR's idea that he is from a different lineage.

[A bowl of brown]

Part of my problem with the "blood of the dragon" argument is that so many people in the realm must have dragon blood in them it kind of renders it being special pointless. We know the Martells, Baratheons, Arryns, Velaryons all have Targ blood in them, as well any families they intermarried with and their decendants. Then you've got all the people decended from Aegon the Unworthy.

It seems like half the realm probably has some kid of dragon blood in them. If it was really so special why make it so pretty much anyone can make a reasonable claim to be related to a Targ.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

As to Nettles, it is important to remember that she used an entirely different method than any other rider to mount Sheepstealer. Every time she rode, she slit the throat of a sheep and fed it to her dragon. The claim that merely feeding a dragon makes it approachable/ride-able is clearly incorrect - the servants that feed Dany's dragons aren't favored by Viserion and Rhaegal. The claim that feeding a dragon before flight makes it more controllable also seems to be incorrect, since no one else does it. (The source for that tidbit was probably the maester at Maidenpool, who had no real knowledge of dragons.)

Nettles slit the throat of a sheep. That sounds like a blood sacrifice. I strongly suspect that Nettles had no Targ, or even Valyrian, blood, but used blood magic to control Sheepstealer. She might have been recreating the way the first dragon riders originally controlled dragons. Or she might have been using blood magic as a different method to temporarily control Sheepstealer, much the same way that Mell was able to temporarily mess with Jon's bond with Ghost.

And yeah, I think that Nettles was much more than she seemed, and Nettles was not her true name. I think we've met her elsewhere. Her true name was too long to learn, but she admitted she had a name in the Common Tongue "When I am needing one." She wouldn't reveal that name, so Bran and Co called her Leaf.

[RumHam]

As to Nettles, it is important to remember that she used an entirely different method than any other rider to mount Sheepstealer. Every time she rode, she slit the throat of a sheep and fed it to her dragon. The claim that merely feeding a dragon makes it approachable/ride-able is clearly incorrect - the servants that feed Dany's dragons aren't favored by Viserion and Rhaegal. The claim that feeding a dragon before flight makes it more controllable also seems to be incorrect, since no one else does it. (The source for that tidbit was probably the maester at Maidenpool, who had no real knowledge of dragons.)

Nettles slit the throat of a sheep. That sounds like a blood sacrifice. I strongly suspect that Nettles had no Targ, or even Valyrian, blood, but used blood magic to control Sheepstealer. She might have been recreating the way the first dragon riders originally controlled dragons. Or she might have been using blood magic as a different method to temporarily control Sheepstealer, much the same way that Mell was able to temporarily mess with Jon's bond with Ghost.

And yeah, I think that Nettles was much more than she seemed, and Nettles was not her true name. I think we've met her elsewhere. Her true name was too long to learn, but she admitted she had a name in the Common Tongue "When I am needing one." She wouldn't reveal that name, so Bran and Co called her Leaf.

I don't hate this theory, but you have to admit it's crackpottery. Just because we're not told of anyone else feeding their dragons before flight is not evidence that she was the only one doing it. The maester does suggest that by feeding him sheep she got the dragon used to her presence and that made it easier for her. This is not evidence that you don't need dragonblood, because it's established that just having dragon blood is not enough, it's still risky as hell. (See Quentyn, the Hull/Velayron twins)

Part of my problem with the "blood of the dragon" argument is that so many people in the realm must have dragon blood in them it kind of renders it being special pointless. We know the Martells, Baratheons, Arryns, Velaryons all have Targ blood in them, as well any families they intermarried with and their decendants. Then you've got all the people decended from Aegon the Unworthy.

It seems like half the realm probably has some kid of dragon blood in them. If it was really so special why make it so pretty much anyone can make a reasonable claim to be related to a Targ.

I'm not a fake genealogy expert but I don't think the Arryns actually have any Targaryen blood. Rhaenys or Lord Varys could probably explain why.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Part of my problem with the "blood of the dragon" argument is that so many people in the realm must have dragon blood in them it kind of renders it being special pointless. We know the Martells, Baratheons, Arryns, Velaryons all have Targ blood in them, as well any families they intermarried with and their decendants. Then you've got all the people decended from Aegon the Unworthy.

It seems like half the realm probably has some kid of dragon blood in them. If it was really so special why make it so pretty much anyone can make a reasonable claim to be related to a Targ.

no no, All those people have Targaryen blood, not necessarily 'Blood of the Dragon'. For instance there are some full-blood Targaryens who are unable to ride a dragon, so although they have mostly Valyrain blood, they dont have that extra something special.

IMO it is the same way that not all Starks could warg a direwolf or warg at all. We never see Ned or his brothers warging any animals.

So if you are one of these people with a few drops of Targaryen blood, it just means that is slightly possible you will be able to ride a dragon, but not a forgone conclusion at all.

Like in PATQ, when they called for the 'seeds' to come and try to tame one of the 6 unmanned dragons, hundreds tried, only 5 suceeded, yet many more than 5 had some kind of Targaryen blood.

IMO, this is why Dameon hooked up with Nettles, he liked that she had 'the blood of the Dragon'.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

As to Nettles, it is important to remember that she used an entirely different method than any other rider to mount Sheepstealer. Every time she rode, she slit the throat of a sheep and fed it to her dragon. The claim that merely feeding a dragon makes it approachable/ride-able is clearly incorrect - the servants that feed Dany's dragons aren't favored by Viserion and Rhaegal. The claim that feeding a dragon before flight makes it more controllable also seems to be incorrect, since no one else does it. (The source for that tidbit was probably the maester at Maidenpool, who had no real knowledge of dragons.)

Nettles slit the throat of a sheep. That sounds like a blood sacrifice. I strongly suspect that Nettles had no Targ, or even Valyrian, blood, but used blood magic to control Sheepstealer. She might have been recreating the way the first dragon riders originally controlled dragons. Or she might have been using blood magic as a different method to temporarily control Sheepstealer, much the same way that Mell was able to temporarily mess with Jon's bond with Ghost.

And yeah, I think that Nettles was much more than she seemed, and Nettles was not her true name. I think we've met her elsewhere. Her true name was too long to learn, but she admitted she had a name in the Common Tongue "When I am needing one." She wouldn't reveal that name, so Bran and Co called her Leaf.

I don't hate this theory, but you have to admit it's crackpottery. Just because we're not told of anyone else feeding their dragons before flight is not evidence that she was the only one doing it. The maester does suggest that by feeding him sheep she got the dragon used to her presence and that made it easier for her. This is not evidence that you don't need dragonblood, because it's established that just having dragon blood is not enough, it's still risky as hell. (See Quentyn, the Hull/Velayron twins)

yeah I disagree with this Nettles theory. WOIAF confirms Valyrians are the ones who tame and subdue dragons, no one else. There is a lot of history on this planet, and if any non-valyrians were ever able to tame/ ride it would have been international news, something that any country or city would grasp on to and keep as a trophy forever.

[RumHam]

Which does leave the question, what the hell were the slavers in Astapor thinking when they bought Drogon?

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Which does leave the question, what the hell were the slavers in Astapor thinking when they bought Drogon?

Hahahaha, very good question. I don't think they were thinking very far ahead. But my guess is that they wanted the same thing that XXD wanted, to possess something very rare. Although in the case of the Ghiscari, there is all the history between Valyrians, their dragons and the 5 Ghiscari wars. So I am quite certain owning a dragon would appeal to their sense of redemption. But yeah they were idiots who had no idea what they were getting into.

[Kingmonkey]

Which does leave the question, what the hell were the slavers in Astapor thinking when they bought Drogon?

Jorah thought he could be a dragonrider too, if he married Dany. Dany wondered about him and Daario. Euron and Victarion think a dragon horn is enough.

[Maid So Fair]

Which does leave the question, what the hell were the slavers in Astapor thinking when they bought Drogon?

A lot of Ghiscari would have some Valyrian blood somewhere in their ancestry I would imagine. With all the wars and slavery and coming back and forth there must have been some children.

[RumHam]

Jorah thought he could be a dragonrider too, if he married Dany. Dany wondered about him and Daario. Euron and Victarion think a dragon horn is enough.

Oh hey I brought that Jorah thing up the other day in the R+L=J thread and nobody seemed to agree with me that he thought he could be a rider. Good to know I'm not the only one who read it that way. I also think the dragon horn will be enough.

[PhoenixFlame]

*shrugs* I immediately thought Nettles wasn't a direct Targ bastard when I read TPATQ, but that was pure knee-jerk reaction, no real evidence. That said, how much Targ blood has to be in someone to be able to ride a dragon? Aegon the Unworthy might've ensured a couple dozen families have dragonriding potential :P .

Undoubtedly Valyrians have more affinity for dragons, but it puzzles me why, unless the theory about them literally having dragon blood (*shudder*) has some merit. It's also unclear how many non-Valyrians have tried to ride dragons, while at the same time people with Valyrian blood have been roasted by the beasties. Ridiculous parallel, but most people say you can't ride a zebra. A few have managed it, though you're much more likely to get your fingers bitten off or head kicked in. So, very difficult but potentially doable.

Oh, and any guesses as to what happened to the Cannibal?

[Kingmonkey]

Oh hey I brought that Jorah thing up the other day in the R+L=J thread and nobody seemed to agree with me that he thought he could be a rider. Good to know I'm not the only one who read it that way. I also think the dragon horn will be enough.

Well, here's your meaning: Balerion, Meraxes, and Vhagar, ridden by Aegon, Rhaenys, and Visenya. The three-headed dragon of House Targaryen—three dragons, and three riders."

"Yes," said Dany, "but my brothers are dead."

"Rhaenys and Visenya were Aegon's wives as well as his sisters. You have no brothers, but you can take husbands. And I tell you truly, Daenerys, there is no man in all the world who will ever be half so true to you as me."

It's pretty clear, really. Why would he bring up riders if he wasn't talking about riders?

[Lord Damian]

All I know is that there is at least two dragons that are un-accounted for and in this book series, that means they are possibly alive and may have left clutches of eggs somewhere. They are Cannibal and Sheep Stealer.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

I don't hate this theory, but you have to admit it's crackpottery. Just because we're not told of anyone else feeding their dragons before flight is not evidence that she was the only one doing it. The maester does suggest that by feeding him sheep she got the dragon used to her presence and that made it easier for her. This is not evidence that you don't need dragonblood, because it's established that just having dragon blood is not enough, it's still risky as hell. (See Quentyn, the Hull/Velayron twins)

The bit about Nettles=Leaf is a bit crackpot, I'll admit. I don't consider the rest crackpot at all. The account of how Nettles tamed Sheepstealer is so glaringly different from all the other cases It demands a separate explanation. The idea that you can tame a dragon just by feeding it isn't consistent with 5000 years of Valyrian dragonlord dragon monopoly.

We do get plenty of accounts of dragonriders mounting up and flying away, and there is absolutely no other mention of the necessity or desirability of feeding the dragon first.

I'm not saying that "bloodline doesn't matter; anybody can tame/ride a dragon". I contend that Nettles is a particular, exceptional case where a different type of powerful magic was used to allow her to ride Sheepstealer. (Thus the mention of the Mel/Ghost example.) After all, dragon taming is supposedly magical to begin with, right? I'm just saying Nettles appeared to use a different kind of magic.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Just to clarify, it isn't the story of how Nettles initially tamed Sheepstealer on Dragonstone that makes me think she is doing something completely different than any other dragon rider we have ever heard of. It's the fact that she keeps feeding Sheepstealer before every flight that sets her apart. If she had Targ blood, she wouldn't have to do that.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Jorah thought he could be a dragonrider too, if he married Dany. Dany wondered about him and Daario. Euron and Victarion think a dragon horn is enough.

Dany doesn't know nearly enough about her family history or taming/riding dragons. Even when she rides Drogon it's quite obvious she is teaching herself everything. Tyrion, OTOH, has vast knowledge of all dragonlore, much more than Dany. He knows why the queens dragons liked BBP.