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El-Daddy

[TWOIAF Spoilers] Family tree of all of ASOIAF, updated with TWOIAF

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This is amazing. Great job!

What program did you use to make this?

GenoPro. I had bought it years ago to make my own family tree (which was thankfully incest-free).

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I am taking Aegon IV to be father of Jeyne Lothston, by his first mistress, Falena Stokeworth.

I am taking Aegon IV to be father of Viserys Plumm, as Ossifer Plumm was dead before he could produce a son (that, or he had a six-foot long cock).

Aren't these things expressely contradicted by the World of Ice and Fire?

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Aren't these things expressely contradicted by the World of Ice and Fire?

Well, for Viserys it says, on the section "The Sisters of Baelor I" -

She [Elaena Targaryen] was thrice wed. Her first marriage was in 176 AC, to the wealthy but aged Ossifer Plumm, who is said to have died while consummating the marriage. She conceived, however, for Lord Plumm did his duty before he died. Later, scurrilous rumors came to suggest that Lord Plumm, in fact, died at the sight of his new bride in her nakedness (this rumor was put in the lewdest terms— terms which might have amused Mushroom but which we need not repeat), and that the child she conceived that night was by her cousin Aegon—he who later became King Aegon the Unworthy.

This is one that I had to make a judgement call on. The Maester who wrote this book is saying one thing, yet the rumour is the other. Bear in mind that in matters of questionable parentage, this book generally tends to be on the side that would mean no infidelity. Tyrion believes Brown Ben Plumm, Viserys' descendant, to have "two drops" of Dragon's blood, which would fit with the idea that Viserys Plumm had two Targaryen parents. I chose to go with Tyrion on this one.

As for Jeyne Lothston, on the page detailing Aegon IV's mistresses, it says -

LADY JEYNE LOTHSTON - Daughter of Lady Falena, the king’s first mistress, by either Lord Lucas Lothston or the king himself

Another one which there is no proof either way, and I had to make a call on. I went for Aegon to be father, as

1) it's more disgusting and easily something you could imagine him doing, and

2) it would allow me to include Lucas and Manfyrd Lothston into the tree.

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I can't. I need to know exactly how they are related. Maron Martell married Daenerys Targaryen I, yes, but I don't know how many generations are between them and Doran's mother. Or was it a son or daughter of Maron that continued the line? I'm going to wait for an official answer.

It was a son, Doran states that in A Dance with Dragons.

Daenerys married Maron in 187AC, Doran was born in 247/248AC, that's 60 years in between. With 20 to 25 years between each generation of Martells (or so it seems, Ellia was married to Rhaegar at the age of 23, Arianne is still unwed at the age of 23, Doran had not yet gotten married at the age of 25), that would be two to three generations. So either it's Daenerys' son, and Doran's mother (in the case of two generations) or one other Martell in between.

My guess would be three generations (Daenerys and Maron's son, unknown Martell, Doran's mother), because two generations having their heir at the age of 30 is a bit old, and the way Doran's mother spoke to him about Daenerys' and her son, does not imply imo that Daenerys was Mama Martell's grandmother.

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Well, for Viserys it says, on the section "The Sisters of Baelor I" -

This is one that I had to make a judgement call on. The Maester who wrote this book is saying one thing, yet the rumour is the other. Bear in mind that in matters of questionable parentage, this book generally tends to be on the side that would mean no infidelity. Tyrion believes Brown Ben Plumm, Viserys' descendant, to have "two drops" of Dragon's blood, which would fit with the idea that Viserys Plumm had two Targaryen parents. I chose to go with Tyrion on this one.

As for Jeyne Lothston, on the page detailing Aegon IV's mistresses, it says -

Another one which there is no proof either way, and I had to make a call on. I went for Aegon to be father, as

1) it's more disgusting and easily something you could imagine him doing, and

2) it would allow me to include Lucas and Manfyrd Lothston into the tree.

The Jeyne Lothston tihng can only work if Aegon visited Harrenhal for a much longer period of time than is stated in the World Book.

Aegon had his affair with Falena from 149AC until 151AC, when Falena was married off and send to Harrenhal. Aegon would visit frequently for the two following years (152AC and 153AC).

Jeyne Lothston is 14 years old in 178AC, and thus born in 164AC. 11 years after Aegon's visits to Harrenhal seem to have stopped.

So Jeyne can only be Aegon's daughter if he did in fact continued to visit Harrenhal, in which case I don't see why that shouldn't be reported by Yandel.

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It was a son, Doran states that in A Dance with Dragons.

Daenerys married Maron in 187AC, Doran was born in 247/248AC, that's 60 years in between. With 20 to 25 years between each generation of Martells (or so it seems, Ellia was married to Rhaegar at the age of 23, Arianne is still unwed at the age of 23, Doran had not yet gotten married at the age of 25), that would be two to three generations. So either it's Daenerys' son, and Doran's mother (in the case of two generations) or one other Martell in between.

My guess would be three generations (Daenerys and Maron's son, unknown Martell, Doran's mother), because two generations having their heir at the age of 30 is a bit old, and the way Doran's mother spoke to him about Daenerys' and her son, does not imply imo that Daenerys was Mama Martell's grandmother.

I don't want to be that guy, but do you have any idea where in ADwD Doran says that Maron & Daenerys' heir was a son? I need to be sure about these things, as then I can mark them in as having a son.

Either way though, I don't want to link up Maron/Daenerys to Doran-parents directly until I have the definite missing link.

The Jeyne Lothston tihng can only work if Aegon visited Harrenhal for a much longer period of time than is stated in the World Book.

Aegon had his affair with Falena from 149AC until 151AC, when Falena was married off and send to Harrenhal. Aegon would visit frequently for the two following years (152AC and 153AC).

Jeyne Lothston is 14 years old in 178AC, and thus born in 164AC. 11 years after Aegon's visits to Harrenhal seem to have stopped.

So Jeyne can only be Aegon's daughter if he did in fact continued to visit Harrenhal, in which case I don't see why that shouldn't be reported by Yandel.

This is pretty compelling alright. I'm really torn as to whether or not to include her now. Why would they have her marked down as possibly his daughter if it was an impossibility? The timelines not matching up does mess things around. Aegon IV unwittingly taking his own daughter as a mistress would be such a good thing to happen to him, thematically, it's almost too good an opportunity to miss. Though what you said does make sense. I'll have to think about it.

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I don't want to be that guy, but do you have any idea where in ADwD Doran says that Maron & Daenerys' heir was a son? I need to be sure about these things, as then I can mark them in as having a son.

Either way though, I don't want to link up Maron/Daenerys to Doran-parents directly until I have the definite missing link.

Yeah, I didn't had time to look it up earlier. It's The Watcher from Dance.

“Aye,” the prince said. “I told the story to Ser Balon, but not all of it. As the children splashed in the pools, Daenerys watched from amongst the orange trees, and a realization came to her. She could not tell the high-born from the low. Naked, they were only children. All innocent, all vulnerable, all deserving of long life, love, protection. ‘There is your realm,’ she told her son and heir, ‘remember them, in everything you do.’ My own mother said those same words to me when I was old enough to leave the pools. It is an easy thing for a prince to call the spears, but in the end the children pay the price. For their sake, the wise prince will wage no war without good cause, nor any war he cannot hope to win.

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This turned out amazing, I can't imagine how much work must have gone into this project! :)





A few comments and questions:


-There's a small error I noticed: Baelor the Blessed is listed as alive (though it's perfectly understandable some characters would slip through the cracks in a family tree this size!).


-Alys Stackspear can be listed as deceased, as per the Westerlands reading we know she died in childbirth (though her actual full name isn't mentioned there).


-Lynora Hill would be around the same age as Tywin, so she could still conceivably be alive. Her mother would likely be deceased by this point, though.


-Briony is probably alive...I always had the impression that she was the one raising her daughter, though that might be wrong.


-A question about Bellegere Otherys and her children: why are you only considering Balerion as a child not fathered by Aegon IV? Mind you, one of the reasons I'm asking is because I am confused about it myself - we know Bellenora was definitely Aegon's child as she's mentioned as such everywhere; in the section about the mistresses, Yandel casts doubt on the paternity of all the children (or at least that's how I'm reading it) and later on, in the Braavos section, it's said that Bellegere had a daughter by Aegon IV, Bellenora (no mention of Narha or Balerion).


-Also about Bellegere and her descendants, from Feast we have this exchange: "A Westerosi prince took her for a lover and got a daughter on her, who grew up to be a courtesan. Her own daughter followed her, and her daughter after her, until you get to this one." So we could assume that the first Bellegere was the great-great-grandmother of the current one, though I think it's more likely there's an extra generation there:


Let's say the current Bellegere is no older than 30 and could have been born circa 270 AC. From the section about the mistresses, we can assume that Bellenora was born in the early 160s. Assuming the average age of the Black Pearls at the birth of their daughters was around 27 (fairly higher than average in the ASOIAF universe, but still possible), we could have the birth of Bellenora's daughter in around 187 AC, the birth of her daughter in around 214 AC, the birth of Bellonara (the current Bellegere's mother) in around 241 AC, and the birth of the current Bellegere in around 268 AC (not very far off from my original estimation). Thus we have the "Black Pearl of Braavos" title going: Bellegere the elder -> Bellenora -> Bellenora's daughter -> Bellenora's granddaughter -> Bellonara -> Bellegere the younger.


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Yeah, I didn't had time to look it up earlier. It's The Watcher from Dance.

This is great, thank you. I was really looking forward to finishing this tree up and posting it here - I knew people would know the source material inside out and would be able to add to it and/or fix any mistakes.

This turned out amazing, I can't imagine how much work must have gone into this project! :)

A few comments and questions:

-There's a small error I noticed: Baelor the Blessed is listed as alive (though it's perfectly understandable some characters would slip through the cracks in a family tree this size!).

-Alys Stackspear can be listed as deceased, as per the Westerlands reading we know she died in childbirth (though her actual full name isn't mentioned there).

-Lynora Hill would be around the same age as Tywin, so she could still conceivably be alive. Her mother would likely be deceased by this point, though.

-Briony is probably alive...I always had the impression that she was the one raising her daughter, though that might be wrong.

-A question about Bellegere Otherys and her children: why are you only considering Balerion as a child not fathered by Aegon IV? Mind you, one of the reasons I'm asking is because I am confused about it myself - we know Bellenora was definitely Aegon's child as she's mentioned as such everywhere; in the section about the mistresses, Yandel casts doubt on the paternity of all the children (or at least that's how I'm reading it) and later on, in the Braavos section, it's said that Bellegere had a daughter by Aegon IV, Bellenora (no mention of Narha or Balerion).

-Also about Bellegere and her descendants, from Feast we have this exchange: "A Westerosi prince took her for a lover and got a daughter on her, who grew up to be a courtesan. Her own daughter followed her, and her daughter after her, until you get to this one." So we could assume that the first Bellegere was the great-great-grandmother of the current one, though I think it's more likely there's an extra generation there:

Let's say the current Bellegere is no older than 30 and could have been born circa 270 AC. From the section about the mistresses, we can assume that Bellenora was born in the early 160s. Assuming the average age of the Black Pearls at the birth of their daughters was around 27 (fairly higher than average in the ASOIAF universe, but still possible), we could have the birth of Bellenora's daughter in around 187 AC, the birth of her daughter in around 214 AC, the birth of Bellonara (the current Bellegere's mother) in around 241 AC, and the birth of the current Bellegere in around 268 AC (not very far off from my original estimation). Thus we have the "Black Pearl of Braavos" title going: Bellegere the elder -> Bellenora -> Bellenora's daughter -> Bellenora's granddaughter -> Bellonara -> Bellegere the younger.

Thanks for your comments! Much appreciated, as always.

Someone else actually pointed the Baelor and Alys Stackspear ones out to me in another place, but thanks regardless.

The changes I've made since posting this here are -

  • Added in Daeron Velaryon as father of Daernaera Velaryon. He is probably a brother of Vaemond Velaryon, or a son or nephew, but I can't be certain.

Fixed order of Jason Lannister's wives and their children. Alys Stackspear died in childbirth and was the first wife.

Argilac the Arrogant's grandfather was Arrec Durrandon, who had at least two brothers. Arrec's successor was his eldest son Arlan V, but we don't know if Arlan V was Argilac's father.

Samwell Spicer is the cousin of Gawen and Sybell Spicer. As the house was founded by their grandfather, then Samwell must be their first cousin.

I didn't have Baelor the Blessed down as dead.

Maron Martell's heir was a son

Lynora Hill's mother is dead

Oh, and some one also suggested having affairs/mistresses in as dotted lines, and marriages in as full lines. Very good idea - I should've had it in earlier.

As for your other points, I had Balerion down as not Aegon's child, as the wording was "She gave birth to three children during the decade, two girls and a boy of doubtful paternity." Now this could be referring to all of the children as doubtful paternity, but I interpreted it as just Balerion. I guess I was always going to have Bellegere as his daughter, due to the present-day connection, and I chose Balerion to be not his son because of how that sentence was worded,

We know that, as you said, it goes Bellegere -> Bellenora -> X -> Bellonara -> Bellegere the Younger. The problem is, however, that we don't know how many generations X is. Is it 1, 2, or 3? It all depends on how young they were when they had children. If X is two, then the current Black Pearl is the same generation as Aerys II and Steffon Baratheon. Either way, I don't know the amount of generations, so the still-living mother and daughter can't be added, even if we know their names.

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This is great, thank you. I was really looking forward to finishing this tree up and posting it here - I knew people would know the source material inside out and would be able to add to it and/or fix any mistakes.

Thanks for your comments! Much appreciated, as always.

Someone else actually pointed the Baelor and Alys Stackspear ones out to me in another place, but thanks regardless.

The changes I've made since posting this here are -

  • Added in Daeron Velaryon as father of Daernaera Velaryon. He is probably a brother of Vaemond Velaryon, or a son or nephew, but I can't be certain.

Fixed order of Jason Lannister's wives and their children. Alys Stackspear died in childbirth and was the first wife.

Argilac the Arrogant's grandfather was Arrec Durrandon, who had at least two brothers. Arrec's successor was his eldest son Arlan V, but we don't know if Arlan V was Argilac's father.

Samwell Spicer is the cousin of Gawen and Sybell Spicer. As the house was founded by their grandfather, then Samwell must be their first cousin.

I didn't have Baelor the Blessed down as dead.

Maron Martell's heir was a son

Lynora Hill's mother is dead

Oh, and some one also suggested having affairs/mistresses in as dotted lines, and marriages in as full lines. Very good idea - I should've had it in earlier.

As for your other points, I had Balerion down as not Aegon's child, as the wording was "She gave birth to three children during the decade, two girls and a boy of doubtful paternity." Now this could be referring to all of the children as doubtful paternity, but I interpreted it as just Balerion. I guess I was always going to have Bellegere as his daughter, due to the present-day connection, and I chose Balerion to be not his son because of how that sentence was worded,

We know that, as you said, it goes Bellegere -> Bellenora -> X -> Bellonara -> Bellegere the Younger. The problem is, however, that we don't know how many generations X is. Is it 1, 2, or 3? It all depends on how young they were when they had children. If X is two, then the current Black Pearl is the same generation as Aerys II and Steffon Baratheon. Either way, I don't know the amount of generations, so the still-living mother and daughter can't be added, even if we know their names.

I see your point, I agree that you shouldn't add Bellenora's descendants after all due to the unknown number of generations (the wiki does list Bellegere the elder as the great-great-grandmother of the younger, but that might be a misinterpretation of that line from Feast, as the ages strongly suggest X>1 is much more likely).

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Wow.

The funny thing is, I looked at it for 10 seconds or so, then I asked myself, "Where is Edric Storm?"

But again, to put things in perspective, wow.

Why, he's chilling with his mother, as I'm sure you saw. :P

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The name of Lonnel Snow's mother isn't Wylla Fenn but Wyalla Fenn. ;)

It was Wyalla in the preview family tree that was released, but it actually is Wylla in the finalised version. Nice spot though, nonetheless. I dunno how I spotted it when I was updating my tree.

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The Velaryon family tricks me a bit. The books states that Lord Daemon Velaryon, Master of Ships and Admiral of the Fleet died during Aegons Conquest by the Arryn fleet.



Later it is howewer stated that a Lord Daemon Velaryon who is admiral of the kings fleet turned against Maegors reign.



A mistake or named Daemon Velaryon his son Daemon?


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It was Wyalla in the preview family tree that was released, but it actually is Wylla in the finalised version. Nice spot though, nonetheless. I dunno how I spotted it when I was updating my tree.

Alright, haven't noticed that.

Aelinor Penrose is still listed as sister of Aerys I. ;)

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