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El-Daddy

[TWOIAF Spoilers] Family tree of all of ASOIAF, updated with TWOIAF

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Ellard Stark is not the guy who donated the Gift.

Oh yes. I found the Ran comment. He said he was going to change that mention of Ellard to be "the Starks".

However, Ellard is still mentioned as a contemporary of Boremund during the Great Council of 101, so I still think he should be moved up a generation. What do you think?

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Re: the Baratheons - Ormond (husband of Rhaelle and father is Steffon) is the heir of Lyonel (Laughing Storm), but no where does it say that they're father and son. Presumably, Ormond would be of an age with Rhaelle, thus putting his year of birth in the 220s.



Lyonel was competing in the Ashford Tourney in 209, apparently in the prime of his life - so I would assume he was in his mid-20s, thus putting his year of birth in the 180s or 170s.



Given the fact that Lord Baratheon hosted a tourney around 200 to celebrate the birth of his grandson (probably his first grandson and thus future heir) it's likely that this is the son of Lyonel and the father of Ormond. While a 40-odd-year gap between father and son is not impossible, it's not that common in Westeros. I am assuming the grandson of Lord Baratheon is his first/heir as it would be considered monumental enough to hold a tourney for - rather than for a grandson further down the line of inheritance. In this scenario, Ormond's father is obviously deceased by the mid-240s...


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I'm sure you don't want to have this said, but I see 2 things you've put in here that are a bit weird:



1. You've already connected Rhaegar to Lyanna and had them make a little 'Snow'. (I believe the same, but on top of that I think he's legitimate, but that's not the point.) However, that's material for further books.



2. Unless I'm mistaken, you use an X when the character is dead. I think the only thing that states Jon is dead is the app, and that doesn't mean he is as it can get updated. I think from the book we're supposed to take he's badly injured. He might be dead, but it's not confirmed anywhere yet, as book 6 is not out yet. (George has pulled that trick at least 17 times already.) Basically, nor dead nor alive has been confirmed, though there's been teases. "You think he's dead, do you?"




So, in my opinion it's a weird approach to a family tree, putting in material that is the subject for further books. Not saying you can't label Jon as dead, but it's a bit presumptuous, definitely combined with something that's a theory that still needs the confirmation, no matter how much we might believe in it.



Furthermore, from interviews there's the 'Will Jon Snow find out who his parents are?', which is confirmed. Can't get to know that unless you're alive. ;)



So yeah, wanting to be ahead in books with number 1 is weird when you also go for number 2.




PS: Before I forget, nice work, though! ;)


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Re: the Baratheons - Ormond (husband of Rhaelle and father is Steffon) is the heir of Lyonel (Laughing Storm), but no where does it say that they're father and son. Presumably, Ormond would be of an age with Rhaelle, thus putting his year of birth in the 220s.

Lyonel was competing in the Ashford Tourney in 209, apparently in the prime of his life - so I would assume he was in his mid-20s, thus putting his year of birth in the 180s or 170s.

Given the fact that Lord Baratheon hosted a tourney around 200 to celebrate the birth of his grandson (probably his first grandson and thus future heir) it's likely that this is the son of Lyonel and the father of Ormond. While a 40-odd-year gap between father and son is not impossible, it's not that common in Westeros. I am assuming the grandson of Lord Baratheon is his first/heir as it would be considered monumental enough to hold a tourney for - rather than for a grandson further down the line of inheritance. In this scenario, Ormond's father is obviously deceased by the mid-240s...

Ack.... I think you might be right. Even by my tree, I have Egg and Lyonel as the same generation, when Egg was only 8 and Lyonel was much older at the time of that tourney. So yeah, it would make sense for Lyonel to be a generation older than Egg.

It's a pity, as since I now don't know the exact relationship between Lyonel and Ormund, Lyonel and his daughters have to go from the tree now. Hopefully they'll be back at some stage.

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I'm sure you don't want to have this said, but I see 2 things you've put in here that are a bit weird:



1. You've already connected Rhaegar to Lyanna and had them make a little 'Snow'. (I believe the same, but on top of that I think he's legitimate, but that's not the point.) However, that's material for further books.



2. Unless I'm mistaken, you use an X when the character is dead. I think the only thing that states Jon is dead is the app, and that doesn't mean he is as it can get updated. I think from the book we're supposed to take he's badly injured. He might be dead, but it's not confirmed anywhere yet, as book 6 is not out yet. (George has pulled that trick at least 17 times already.) Basically, nor dead nor alive has been confirmed, though there's been teases. "You think he's dead, do you?"




So, in my opinion it's a weird approach to a family tree, putting in material that is the subject for further books. Not saying you can't label Jon as dead, but it's a bit presumptuous, definitely combined with something that's a theory that still needs the confirmation, no matter how much we might believe in it.



Furthermore, from interviews there's the 'Will Jon Snow find out who his parents are?', which is confirmed. Can't get to know that unless you're alive. ;)



So yeah, wanting to be ahead in books with number 1 is weird when you also go for number 2.




PS: Before I forget, nice work, though! ;)




It is weird about Jon Snow on this tree, about how I have his parentage and how I have him down as dead - as you said, neither is confirmed.



I have tried my best to be as objective as possible in making this tree, only basing things on evidence (I'm even going to have to remove Lyonel as Ormund's father, based on what was said above, which is a pity as it means less generations of Baratheons).



Jon Snow is the only exemption from this, as any other conclusion I draw (from the list at the beginning), is taken from evidence. However, I am happy to leave the tree as it is, as I have outlined in the notes that Jon's mortal status and parentage are speculative, and he is really the only example of such. This tree takes Jon to be currently dead, and from what we can guess, currently illegitimate. He's coming back via Melisandre one way or another, and I guess maybe Rhaegar took Lyanna as a 2nd wife at some point before he died.




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The only thing I found is that the line from Harmen Uller and his Baby Mama to Ellaria should be a broken line not a solid one.



Seriously, though, you are a god. And possibly AAR. And The Last Hero.


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The only thing I found is that the line from Harmen Uller and his Baby Mama to Ellaria should be a broken line not a solid one.

Seriously, though, you are a god. And possibly AAR. And The Last Hero.

Nice spot, and thanks! I'll fix and update it when I get home.

Good work.

My only suggestion would be to put Ellaria a bit higher. It gets mixed with Oberyn's daughters, when she should be next to the other mothers.

This was an interesting one alright. She originally was there, but then that would mean that Harmen Uller is a generation older. We know him to be a contemporary of Doran, and isn't mentioned to be particularly old (as he would be if he was a generation older), so that's why where he his. Having Ellaria where she is mightn't be the most intuitive, but it's the best I can do by my current reckonings of the generations.

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Nice spot, and thanks! I'll fix and update it when I get home.

This was an interesting one alright. She originally was there, but then that would mean that Harmen Uller is a generation older. We know him to be a contemporary of Doran, and isn't mentioned to be particularly old (as he would be if he was a generation older), so that's why where he his. Having Ellaria where she is mightn't be the most intuitive, but it's the best I can do by my current reckonings of the generations.

Doran is 10 years older than Oberyn.. If Harmen is only 10 years older than Doran, there is no reason to call him old (his age is never described as young, for example, either ;) ) when comparing him to Doran, but it would put Ellaria (then about 20 years, if not a little bit more, younger) around the age of Oberyn, one generation, to half a generation, above the Sand Snakes (Obara is close to 30, for example. we count her as the same generation as Loreza Sand, only 7.. a difference we would usually count as a generation, or close to).

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Doran is 10 years older than Oberyn.. If Harmen is only 10 years older than Doran, there is no reason to call him old (his age is never described as young, for example, either ;) ) when comparing him to Doran, but it would put Ellaria (then about 20 years, if not a little bit more, younger) around the age of Oberyn, one generation, to half a generation, above the Sand Snakes (Obara is close to 30, for example. we count her as the same generation as Loreza Sand, only 7.. a difference we would usually count as a generation, or close to).

Fair enough, that makes sense. I'll change that later on.

What do you think of moving Cregan and his first two wives up (and their descendants) a generation, however?

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As the others say, the error is in the sidebar stating that Ellard gave the New Gift. He was the Lord at the council in 101, however, that is correct.

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Cool, thanks Ran..

Would Ellard then be the father of Lord Benjen?

Fair enough, that makes sense. I'll change that later on.
What do you think of moving Cregan and his first two wives up (and their descendants) a generation, however?

Hmm, we're not really sure when each wife died.. It could have been within a decade, it could have been over a period of 30 years.

Leaving it the way it is shown now would not be a problem, I think..

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I was shocked when I opened it, in a good way, but shocked nonetheless. This is very impressive.

Good work.

My only suggestion would be to put Ellaria a bit higher. It gets mixed with Oberyn's daughters, when she should be next to the other mothers.

Do you specialize in graphic design? :)

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I was shocked when I opened it, in a good way, but shocked nonetheless. This is very impressive.

Do you specialize in graphic design? :)

In a past life, before exile, when I was the Hand of the a Queen...

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Nice spot, and thanks! I'll fix and update it when I get home.

This was an interesting one alright. She originally was there, but then that would mean that Harmen Uller is a generation older. We know him to be a contemporary of Doran, and isn't mentioned to be particularly old (as he would be if he was a generation older), so that's why where he his. Having Ellaria where she is mightn't be the most intuitive, but it's the best I can do by my current reckonings of the generations.

Nice! And I must say, it does look much better with all the Sand Snakes hanging out together. We all know Harmen Uller is a silver fox anyway.

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For those interested - this tree has 950 symbols in total.

I ended up moving Cregan Stark and his first two wives and their descendants up a generation, as I was debating above. Ben Blackwood would have been simply too recent to have been around during the Dance otherwise, even as an 11 year old.
Raymun and Lyman Darry are also gone - I didn't have the evidence to justify them being there at all. Hopefully they'll be back!

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Exams are over and done with, so now I get to make my updates.



  • Daemon Targaryen was first married to Rhea Royce, Lady of Runestone. However, they Royces didn't like him too much, and when she died, Runestone went to her nephew rather than him.
  • Rhea Royce's father was probably Lord Yorbert Royce, who represented Jeyne Arryn during the Great Council of 101, as Jeyne was too young.
  • Willum Royce, last known wielder of the Valyrian steel sword Lamentation, died during the Dance. Probably a close relation of Rhea and possibly Yorbert.
  • Naerys Targaryen had a set of twins that died shortly after birth.
  • The father of Mariah and Maron Martell is specified to be the Prince of Dorne, so he was a Martell.
  • Daella Targaryen is older than Aegon V.
  • Abelar Hightower was the heir to Oldtown in 209.
  • Quenton Hightower was the Lord of Oldtown when Pycelle was young (he was born in 216), when the grey plague hit and Quenton and his young son were killed. Based on the dates I would imagine Quenton to likely be the father of Abelar, and the son who died to be a younger son. This would make Abelar the great-grandfather of Leyton and grandfather of Gerold, with Quenton being his father.
  • I didn't have the Sand Snakes' nicknames included.
  • I elaborated on the Waynwood daughters - one of them married the Lord of the Paps, so that's House Elesham now in the tree.
  • Harry the Heir has a bastard by a baseborn girl.
  • Black Walder has bastard children.
  • Eustace Osgrey had a female cousin.


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Well spotted, thanks. This would mean that Rhea's nephew by her sister would adopt the name Royce then, wouldn't he?



I also spotted last night that Hizdahr mentioned having two natural children, so I'll have to add those in too.


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