Mithras Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 "Right drop" is not even a theory. It is basically "I am George and I can give dragonriding to anyone I like". That is not the George I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Lepus Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 "Right drop" is not even a theory. It is basically "I am George and I can give dragonriding to anyone I like". That is not the George I know. The GRRM we know has made Hugh Hammer, Ulf the White and Nettles able to ride dragons, and has spread the Targaryen blood all across Westeros. And anyways, if he wants to make a character a dragonrider, he will do it. He can make any character to be the grandson or granddaughter of a Targaryen. He's the one who creates their genealogical trees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Barbrey Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 The GRRM we know has made Hugh Hammer, Ulf the White and Nettles able to ride dragons, and has spread the Targaryen blood all across Westeros. And anyways, if he wants to make a character a dragonrider, he will do it. He can make any character to be the grandson or granddaughter of a Targaryen. He's the one who creates their genealogical trees.Yes and I suspect that a lot of the info in World regarding various families is to do just that, show us who he's decided 'could' have the right drop of the various magical affinities. Thus the Blackwood and High tower information, for two examples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Yes and I suspect that a lot of the info in World regarding various families is to do just that, show us who he's decided 'could' have the right drop of the various magical affinities. Thus the Blackwood and High tower information, for two examples. The family trees also made it pretty clear that the Starks and Lannisters have no Targ ancestors, so if someone of those houses binds a dragon (Jon or Tyrion), that person must really have a Targ parent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Barbrey Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 The family trees also made it pretty clear that the Starks and Lannisters have no Targ ancestors, so if someone of those houses binds a dragon (Jon or Tyrion), that person must really have a Targ parent.Yes to me that would be incontrovertible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted November 21, 2014 Author Share Posted November 21, 2014 Thanks for the encouragement Lady Barbrey :) Also, notably, people who succeeded in claiming the dragons during the Dance were not those who took care of the previously ridden dragons, fed them, etc. Only one of the dragonseeds might have lived lived in the castle - Ulf. That's not how taming animals normally works.That is a very good point. It is odd that anyone was able to tame a dragon so quickly, that is not how taming, say a horse, would work. A very solid explanation for this is that the people who succeeded had something in their blood that the dragon responded too. I agree. I think the next step, is to figure out what consists of the "right drop" - if we can ever do this. In hindsight BBP, was probably I dead giveaway - why include the dragons attraction to him at all if not making a statement about Valyrian blood and dragon riding. I mean YES! Thank you. IMHO this is quite obvious. Why else would that whole BBP/dragons scene be included? Then the scene where Tyrion specifically says "The dragons like you because you have 2 drops of Targ blood." It's right there being spelled out for us as an easy answer that makes sense. Tyrion has been wrong about a few things int he 5 books for sure. But one subject he is very astute on is dragons. He is arguing with Haldon halfmaester and wins every discussion they have about dragons. He knows more than anyone on the subject. Which he reiterates when talking to BBP, showing he knows which 'tales of dragons' are true and which aren't. Maybe Tyrion doesnt knwo that much about eye color or guessing ages. But Dragons, he knows ALL about, and there is no reason we should discount what he says about them. “Tyrion realized he would do well to be careful around Haldon Halfmaester. “Every dwarf is a bastard in his father’s eyes.“No doubt. Well Hugor Hill, answer me this. How did Serwyn of the mirror shield slay the dragon Urrax?“He approached behind his shield. Urrax saw only his own reflection until Serwyn had plunged his spear through his eye.”Haldon was unimpressed. “Even Duck knows that tale. Can you tell me the name of the knight who tried the same ploy with Vhagar during the Dance of the Dragons?”Tyrion grinned. “Ser Byron Swann. He was roasted for his trouble ….only the dragon was Syrax not Vhagar.”“I fear that you’re mistaken. In The Dance of Dragons, A True Telling, Maester Munkun writes—““—that it was Vhagar. Grand Maester Munkun errs. Ser Byron’s squire saw his master die, and wrote his daughter of the manner of it. His account says it was Syrax, Rhaenyra’s she-dragon, which makes more sense than Munken’s version. Swann was the son of a marcher lord, and Storm’s end was for Aegon. Vhagar was ridden by Prince Aemond, Aegon’s brother. Why should Swann want to slay her?”Haldon pursed his lips. "His other duty was anything but foolish. Duck has his sword, I my quill and parchment. Griff had commanded him to set down all he knew of dragonlore. The task was a formidable one, but the dwarf labored at it every day, scratching away as best he could as he sat cross-legged on the cabin roof.Tyrion had read much and more of dragons through the years. The greater part of those accounts were idle tales and could not be relied on, and the books that Illyrio had provided them were not the ones he might have wished for. What he really wanted was the complete text of The Fires of the freehold, Galendro’s history of Valyria.”He was less hopeful concerning Septon Barth’s Dragons, Wyrms and Wyverns; Their Unnatural History. Barth had been a blacksmith’s son who rose to be King’s Hand during the reign of Jaehaerys the Conciliator. His enemies always claimed he was more sorcerer than septon. Baelor the Blessed had ordered all Barth’s writings destroyed when he came to the Iron Throne. Ten Years ago, Tyrion had read a fragment of Unnatural History that had eluded the Blessed Baleor, but he doubted that any of Barth’s work had found its way across the narrow sea. And of course there was even less chance of his coming on the fragmentary, anonymous, blood-soaked tome sometimes called Blood and Fire and sometimes The Death of Dragons, the only surviving copy of which was supposedly hidden away in a locked vault beneath the Citadel.” The family trees also made it pretty clear that the Starks and Lannisters have no Targ ancestors, so if someone of those houses binds a dragon (Jon or Tyrion), that person must really have a Targ parent.Yes for sure. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hangover of the Morning Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 So how do you measure who has enough of the Valyrian blood and who doesn't? What is enough? If my great-grandfather was a Targ, would I still be able to tame a dragon? And how about if it was 10 generations ago? And what is the blood really? We are talking about genotype, right? Does it mean that the Valerians posses some receive allele of a gene that enabled them to subdue a dragon? Possibly, but that would mean that some of them might not have it despite having a Targaryen parent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 The family trees also made it pretty clear that the Starks and Lannisters have no Targ ancestors, so if someone of those houses binds a dragon (Jon or Tyrion), that person must really have a Targ parent. Not exactly. Stark tree is approximately 200 years old and the Lannister tree is around 150 years old. I am not saying that they did but it is possible that they married into people who were descended from Targaryens. The timeline allows for a daughter of Viserys Plumm to be the mother of either of Tyrion's grandma's (Jeyne Marbrand or Marla Prester). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 So how do you measure who has enough of the Valyrian blood and who doesn't? What is enough? If my great-grandfather was a Targ, would I still be able to tame a dragon? And how about if it was 10 generations ago? And what is the blood really? We are talking about genotype, right? Does it mean that the Valerians posses some receive allele of a gene that enabled them to subdue a dragon? Possibly, but that would mean that some of them might not have it despite having a Targaryen parent. GRRM has indicated that genetics on Westeros are not identical to real-world genetics. I believe that the bloodline connection is based on ancient blood magic performed by the dragonlord families when they first subdued the dragons. So exactly how this magical blood connection to dragons is passed down to some but not all Targ descendants is not clear. But it seems clear that the more "pure" the bloodline, the higher the probability of getting this ability. Not exactly. Stark tree is approximately 200 years old and the Lannister tree is around 150 years old. I am not saying that they did but it is possible that they married into people who were descended from Targaryens. The timeline allows for a daughter of Viserys Plumm to be the mother of either of Tyrion's grandma's (Jeyne Marbrand or Marla Prester). Sorry if my post overstated the case a little. What I really should have said is that it does not seem that the absence of an obvious Targ ancestor was an accident, and I doubt such a connection is going to come out later as some minor Targ ancestor not even listed on the family tree as being the source of dragonblood for Tyrion. GRRM simply has not set up the predicate for such a revelation, and while he has some time to do so in WoW, it seems unlikely, leading to the logical conclusion that any Targ bloodline connection for Tyrion would be from Aerys as the bio-dad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted November 21, 2014 Author Share Posted November 21, 2014 So how do you measure who has enough of the Valyrian blood and who doesn't? What is enough? If my great-grandfather was a Targ, would I still be able to tame a dragon? And how about if it was 10 generations ago? And what is the blood really? We are talking about genotype, right? Does it mean that the Valerians posses some receive allele of a gene that enabled them to subdue a dragon? Possibly, but that would mean that some of them might not have it despite having a Targaryen parent. I dont think there is any way to tell besides confronting a dragon. IMO, great-grandfather is enough Targ blood to do it. BBP probably has 2 Targaryen great-grandparents if Tyrion is right about him. As far as the specifics of blood and geno's, I have no idea, but yeah I am guessing it is a dragon-riding chromosome or something. Yes you are right, not all Targs can ride/tame dragons. This is shown many times in PatQ, even on the 'dragonseed' day at Dragonstone, many who were defintily Targ bastards were unable to ride. So how it works is 1. Have some Targ blood 2. have the right Targ blood 3. have a dragon nearby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 I dont think there is any way to tell besides confronting a dragon. IMO, great-grandfather is enough Targ blood to do it. BBP probably has 2 Targaryen great-grandparents if Tyrion is right about him. As far as the specifics of blood and geno's, I have no idea, but yeah I am guessing it is a dragon-riding chromosome or something. Yes you are right, not all Targs can ride/tame dragons. This is shown many times in PatQ, even on the 'dragonseed' day at Dragonstone, many who were defintily Targ bastards were unable to ride. So how it works is 1. Have some Targ blood 2. have the right Targ blood 3. have a dragon nearby Of course, having a dragon near by is relevant only for testing whether the person has the right "drop" of Targ blood. The person still has it, even if he or she does not know it. But I agree that there does not appear to be any other test to find out whether the right "drop" was inherited other than see the reaction of a dragon or trying to bond with a dragon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Sorry if my post overstated the case a little. What I really should have said is that it does not seem that the absence of an obvious Targ ancestor was an accident, and I doubt such a connection is going to come out later as some minor Targ ancestor not even listed on the family tree as being the source of dragonblood for Tyrion. GRRM simply has not set up the predicate for such a revelation, and while he has some time to do so in WoW, it seems unlikely, leading to the logical conclusion that any Targ bloodline connection for Tyrion would be from Aerys as the bio-dad. I think George set it up perfectly for a Plumm ancestry to be revealed and it can come up in TWoW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hangover of the Morning Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Of course, having a dragon near by is relevant only for testing whether the person has the right "drop" of Targ blood. The person still has it, even if he or she does not know it. But I agree that there does not appear to be any other test to find out whether the right "drop" was inherited other than see the reaction of a dragon or trying to bond with a dragon. It's a circular reasoning. If some random commoner manages to subdue a dragon, than you'll just use it as a proof that he himself or one of his ancestor was some discarded Targaryen bastard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 I think George set it up perfectly for a Plumm ancestry to be revealed and it can come up in TWoW. That would turn out to be quite a diluted "drop" for Tyrion to still be able to bond with a dragon. I just don't see Tyrion being a "head of the dragon" based on a great-great-great-great grandparent happening to be a Targ--but I admit it is possible. I just don't see how he is "of the dragon" when the dragon connection is so attenuated. It's a circular reasoning. If some random commoner manages to subdue a dragon, than you'll just use it as a proof that he himself or one of his ancestor was some discarded Targaryen bastard. It was not really meant to be reasoning at all in terms of proving that dragonblood is needed to bond with a dragon. I have discussed that proof elsewhere. This statement was in relation to a question regarding how to know whether, assuming that dragonblood is required, how to determine whether someone got the right "drop" of dragonblood. And the answer is that there apparently is no way to know -- other than to test the person with a dragon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted November 21, 2014 Author Share Posted November 21, 2014 It's a circular reasoning. If some random commoner manages to subdue a dragon, than you'll just use it as a proof that he himself or one of his ancestor was some discarded Targaryen bastard. You mean Unmasked Lurker will use it as proof? Even if GRRM has given no hints towards the ancestry of this random person riding a dragon? 100% promise that will not happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 You mean Unmasked Lurker will use it as proof? Even if GRRM has given no hints towards the ancestry of this random person riding a dragon? 100% promise that will not happen. You know me too well. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joluoto2 Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 I want to see Brown Ben Plumm riding a dragon now saying "Targ blood bitches", then leaving with the dragon over the horizon never to be seen again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 That would turn out to be quite a diluted "drop" for Tyrion to still be able to bond with a dragon. I just don't see Tyrion being a "head of the dragon" based on a great-great-great-great grandparent happening to be a Targ--but I admit it is possible. I just don't see how he is "of the dragon" when the dragon connection is so attenuated. If you believe the "right drop" theory, then dilution should not be a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hangover of the Morning Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 If you believe the "right drop" theory, then dilution should not be a problem. So it's like homeopathy, which you know is a complete hoax? Gets more potent with every dilution? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 If you believe the "right drop" theory, then dilution should not be a problem. I believe it is both--there has to be enough Targ blood (too much dilution then the right drop is no longer possible) but even 100% Targ blood is no guarantee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.