Opinions on the Rains of Castamere?

[XSarellaX]

I get why Tywin did the things he did, but that was BRUTAL. Was there another way to deal with the Reynes and Tarbecks without drowning everyone?

[Good King Daemon]

Well I think he could have at least spared the Reynes. They were at his mercy after the fall of the tarbecks and the red lion's injuries in battle. He could have accepted the terms Ser Reynard sent up from Castamere (or at least continued negotiations) but at that point he was more concerned with ending the mockery of house Lannister than mending relations and finding apeaceful solution.

[H.P.]

Maybe he just wanted to become known as a real bad-ass, so that no-one would mess with him anymore. Or maybe he wanted to make sure there would be no revenge upon him, so he killed the whole family (hardly a fool-proof strategy, of course, since there could be people outside of the house who wanted revenge… So on second thought, scratch that hypothesis).

[complexphoenix]

My opinion of Tywin Lannister went way, way down after reading that section.

It seems to me that he deliberately provoked them into rebelling with the intent, decided beforehand, that he would kill them all. He never offered them the chance the yield or negotiate, he just went and killed everyone who was a Tarbeck or a Reyne, making no distinction between the guilty and the innocent. It was brutality for brutality's sake, nothing more or less. I understand why he wanted to kill Lady Ellyn (because holy crap what an ambitious scheming bitch) but wiping out everyone related to her by blood or marriage, even distant cousins who had nothing to do with anything? That was wrong, it was cruel, it was evil. Previously I thought they'd brought it on themselves to at least some degree, but now I consider Tywin's actions to be beyond justification. With a bit more patience and willingness to be reasonable he could have brought them to heel without wiping out their entire families, even if Lady Ellyn herself probably needed to lose her head. Killing them all was a choice, a choice made for no good reason.

[ctid1977]

What I liked about it was the setting. It was totally the opposite of what I had imagined. They (the Reynes) lived in what was essentially a castle built over a holed out goldmine and they were finally drowned there. It was horrific but made me really rethink how the Westerlands must look.

[Ser Lepus]

Yes, after reading tWoIaF it seems that he was purposely provoking a confrontation to make a public show of force. I think the mass murder of Castamere itself was a direct consequence of the show of weakness Lord Tytos made just before the deed. Tywin needed something far more brutal that what he had previously planned in order to compensate for his father's meekness and get the desired awe.

That said, if any Lannister tries to scare Daenerys with that, she will laugh her ass off. Castamere is a crime worthy of songs in Westeros, but it would be tuesday at Slaver's Bay. Daenerys herself did worse both in Astapor and in Meereen, and she's supposed to be the "nice one" there.

[complexphoenix]

Yes, after reading tWoIaF it seems that he was purposely provoking a confrontation to make a public show of force. I think the mass murder of Castamere itself was a direct consequence of the show of weakness Lord Tytos made just before the deed. Tywin needed something far more brutal that what he had previously planned in order to compensate for his father's meekness and get the desired awe.

To be sure, Tywin had an incentive to make sure his father wouldn't undo his work. Any promises extracted or hostages taken could be forgiven or returned by Tytos, but bringing the dead back to life was beyond his power.

That does not, however, excuse how far he went. Killing Lord Walderan, Lady Ellyn, the Red Lion, and perhaps Lady Ellyn's son should have been plenty sufficient to make his point. There was no need to take out the entire Houses root and branch. If someone had nothing to do with the original offense and was willing to yield, they should have been spared, but Tywin didn't.

[Maid So Fair]

It was a lot less impressive and more brutal than I imagined. I always assumed that this was about Tywin proving his military commander mettle and overcoming big odds to put powerful vassals into place when in fact he seems to have planned the whole thing and had a very considerable numerical advantage. They stood no chance.

I also never realised how big the extended family was (perhaps I should have) as I always thought he only killed a handful of people. But he drowned hundreds, most completely innocent.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

You have to look at how weak Tywin’s father was, and far the standing of house Lannister had fallen. Look at what befell the Starks at the hands of the Boltons, and the Tullys at the hands of the Freys. Powerful bannermen are your vassals, not necessarily your friends, and if not subjugated will look to usurp your place at the first opportunity. The Reynes and Tarbecks totally disrespected their liege lords and were intermarrying/allying with intent of displacing house Lannister.

The West had fallen into such decay that the Iron Throne had to send in its own troops to restore order. The Throne may even have looked to the Reynes to supplant the Lannisters. Tywin had to act, and send a message that not only brought order to the West, by also resonated throughout the realm.

Additionally, Castamere seemed fairly impregnable to me. The Reynes likely had plenty of stores trough out their many tunnels, meaning a protracted siege that could have lasted years. Tywin could have starved them out, executed a few and took hostages, but I understand what he was trying to accomplish. If the Starks had annihilated the Boltons after their failed rebellions they might be in a better place.

[Boarsbane]

You have to look at how weak Tywin’s father was, and far the standing of house Lannister had fallen. Look at what befell the Starks at the hands of the Boltons, and the Tullys at the hands of the Freys. Powerful bannermen are your vassals, not necessarily your friends, and if not subjugated will look to usurp your place at the first opportunity. The Reynes and Tarbecks totally disrespected their liege lords and were intermarrying/allying with intent of displacing house Lannister.

The West had fallen into such decay that the Iron Throne had to send in its own troops to restore order. The Throne may even have looked to the Reynes to supplant the Lannisters. Tywin had to act, and send a message that not only brought order to the West, by also resonated throughout the realm.

Additionally, Castamere seemed fairly impregnable to me. The Reynes likely had plenty of stores trough out their many tunnels, meaning a protracted siege that could have lasted years. Tywin could have starved them out, executed a few and took hostages, but I understand what he was trying to accomplish. Is the Starks had annihilated the Boltons after their failed rebellions they might be in a better place.

Actually I don't think Tywin would of been able to starve them out, Tytos would of commanded him to stop and in the course of time it would take to starve them out a lot could go wrong. He had to act quickly and he knew it.

[SeanF]

Yes, after reading tWoIaF it seems that he was purposely provoking a confrontation to make a public show of force. I think the mass murder of Castamere itself was a direct consequence of the show of weakness Lord Tytos made just before the deed. Tywin needed something far more brutal that what he had previously planned in order to compensate for his father's meekness and get the desired awe.

That said, if any Lannister tries to scare Daenerys with that, she will laugh her ass off. Castamere is a crime worthy of songs in Westeros, but it would be tuesday at Slaver's Bay. Daenerys herself did worse both in Astapor and in Meereen, and she's supposed to be the "nice one" there.

Castamere was just the warm-up for the Sack of Kings Landing. I imagine *that* was more hideous than Meereen.

The drowning was hideous, but I'm not sure what the alternative was, other than to take massive casualties in the tunnels. Several times, the US army pumped millions of gallons of seawater mixed with petrol into tunnels that Japanese soldiers took refuge in, during the Pacific War, and then set light to the mixture.

[Jaak]

Note that Reynes and Tarbecks looked worse, and Tywin correspondingly better, in the Westerlands reading than in the World of Ice and Fire.

[DreamSongs]

Tywin was affronted and offended by the way that Tytos behaved. He did what he felt needed to be done...by providing a demonstration of what Lions were capable of. While Tywin's actions are brutal, they are effective. If the Reynes and Tarbecks had done as ordered by House Lannister, there would have been no need in squashing a rebellion.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

You have to look at how weak Tywin’s father was, and far the standing of house Lannister had fallen. Look at what befell the Starks at the hands of the Boltons, and the Tullys at the hands of the Freys. Powerful bannermen are your vassals, not necessarily your friends, and if not subjugated will look to usurp your place at the first opportunity. The Reynes and Tarbecks totally disrespected their liege lords and were intermarrying/allying with intent of displacing house Lannister.

The West had fallen into such decay that the Iron Throne had to send in its own troops to restore order. The Throne may even have looked to the Reynes to supplant the Lannisters. Tywin had to act, and send a message that not only brought order to the West, by also resonated throughout the realm.

Additionally, Castamere seemed fairly impregnable to me. The Reynes likely had plenty of stores trough out their many tunnels, meaning a protracted siege that could have lasted years. Tywin could have starved them out, executed a few and took hostages, but I understand what he was trying to accomplish. If the Starks had annihilated the Boltons after their failed rebellions they might be in a better place.

And the rest of the North is rallying for the Starks because the Starks have earned their respect. The Starks have made immense sacrifices for the North, they have protected them against wildings, iron born and Andals. They have been harsh but fair. Instead of grabbing for power, the northern Lords are looking for Ned's kids, they know they've had it good and are going to come through for the family. The Boltons have only ever caused wars and strife and considering they still live, are likely abusing the Stark's past mercy.

There is a lesson here.

[Jaak]

Ask it this way: the World of Ice and Fire mentions Tywin

demanding that Roger and Reynard Reyne and Lord

and Lady Tarbeck present themselves at Casterly Rock “to

answer for your crimes.”

Which crimes does Yandel refer to? The World has very few specific details of "crimes" specifically by Reynes and Tarbecks. What it has is Ellyn´s taking of hostages - which was answer to Tywin´s initiative in treacherously arresting Walderran. And Roger Reyne advising his vassals to do nothing. Reynard Reyne incidentally has not even these "crimes" mentioned, and Tywin presumed to summon him, too.

[OmnomnomPomelo]

Tywin did well, he showed the world that nobody can fuck with him. In my opinion other option would be that he kills the heads of the house and most of the soldiers, thus the youngest child would inherit his father's place and Tywin could form him as he wanted.

BTW I read a prediction-like thing in another topic about Bronn beeing the last Reyne. And as we know now Castamere had a lot of tunnels, so maybe there was a very secret one where a child could get away.

[Chaircat Meow]

That does not, however, excuse how far he went. Killing Lord Walderan, Lady Ellyn, the Red Lion, and perhaps Lady Ellyn's son should have been plenty sufficient to make his point. There was no need to take out the entire Houses root and branch. If someone had nothing to do with the original offense and was willing to yield, they should have been spared, but Tywin didn't.

It is not clear to me Tywin intended to exterminate the Reynes from the start. They sent terms which he did not reply to: we don't know what the terms were. In the westerlands history reading GrrM did the terms were insulting, although that was omitted in the woiaf (I prefer that it was actually).

It was a lot less impressive and more brutal than I imagined. I always assumed that this was about Tywin proving his military commander mettle and overcoming big odds to put powerful vassals into place when in fact he seems to have planned the whole thing and had a very considerable numerical advantage. They stood no chance.

Not true. We are told the lannister force at Tarbeck Hall was probably 6,000 men, but could have been more. The Tarbecks and Reynes were taken by surprise and so failed to muster their full forces. The 2,000 men was only the part of the Reyne army that could be summoned at short notice. They weren't necessarily outnumbered therefore: Tywin caught them by surprise and under the pressure they made mistakes.

Note that Reynes and Tarbecks looked worse, and Tywin correspondingly better, in the Westerlands reading than in the World of Ice and Fire.

In the westerlands history reading we had the attack on Ser Denys Marbrand by the Reynes and Tarbecks; details of Tarbeck violence against their neighbours; the fact Tywin did offer to take a surrender from Ellyn Tarbeck but she refused, and the fact the Reyne offer at the end was basically a piss take.

[Jaak]

In the westerlands history we had the attack on Ser Denys Marbrand by the Reynes and Tarbecks; details of Tarbeck violence against their neighbours; the fact Tywin did offer to take a surrender from Ellyn Tarbeck but she refused, and the fact the Reyne offer at the end was basically a piss take.

Precisely. Yandel omits most bad things that Reynes and Tarbecks did. Oh, and some problems with Tytos, too.

The Reynes and Tarbecks totally disrespected their liege lords and were intermarrying/allying with intent of displacing house Lannister.

Interestingly, they were stupid enough that they were for some reason NOT allying with anyone.

In Westerlands reading, we hear that Tarbecks used their Reyne alliance and gold to violently encroach on their neighbours. Well, they may have gained some lands thereby - but no allies.

Selling land is possible if rare - we hear that Westerlings have sold most of their lands. If Tarbecks had used gold to buy their neighbours´ lands rather than hire swords and conquer them, they would have made allies not enemies. But probably most of their neighbours were not as bankrupt as Westerlings, and not willing to sell.

[Maid So Fair]

Not true. We are told the lannister force at Tarbeck Hall was probably 6,000 men, but could have been more. The Tarbecks and Reynes were taken by surprise and so failed to muster their full forces. The 2,000 men was only the part of the Reyne army that could be summoned at short notice. They weren't necessarily outnumbered therefore: Tywin caught them by surprise and under the pressure they made mistakes.

Except he has engineered the whole thing so of course he had his army ready before they had any clue anything was going on - he would have been well aware that they cannot put together a full fighting force in the short time frame he gave them. He knew he was about to fight; they didn't. Creating that surprise took some strategic (among other things) thinking, certainly, but since I always thought it was the other way around, with Tywin the one having to deal with an armed rebellion at short notice and winning nonetheless, I found it underwhelming.

[Chaircat Meow]

Precisely. Yandel omits most bad things that Reynes and Tarbecks did. Oh, and some problems with Tytos, too.

Interestingly, they were stupid enough that they were for some reason NOT allying with anyone.

Well I'm not sure we're supposed to think Yandel omits things because the reading was never canon. Having said that, it really is just omissions, rather than GrrM changing the story, so I sort of still take the reading as semi-canon unless its contradicted. The one example of that is the fate of Lady Tarbeck. The woiaf is correct in having her crushed by Tarbeck Hall falling down, while the reading had her hung. The woiaf fits better with the novels.