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Opinions on the Rains of Castamere?


XSarellaX

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In one of the interviews about WOIAF GRRM told that when he was writing about Rains of Castamere, he thought that he can write an entire novel based on this, or even a trilogy and he didn't really like the WOIAF format to tell this story. May be he omited some information from WOIAF to save it for a potential future novel? :dunno:

That's interesting.

I would eat this up if it was made into a novel. Use POVs from all the factions and Houses involved (but never Tywin himself) to show Tywin's bloody rise and the tragic fall of the Reynes/Tarbecks. The whole thing is very Godfather-esque, like Charles Philipps said.

It's really too bad GRRM is so old. We'll be lucky if he finishes the main series; I think he's deluding himself with any "future novel" speculation

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I would eat this up if it was made into a novel. Use POVs from all the factions and Houses involved (but never Tywin himself) to show Tywin's bloody rise and the tragic fall of the Reynes/Tarbecks. The whole thing is very Godfather-esque, like Charles Philipps said.

It's really too bad GRRM is so old. We'll be lucky if he finishes the main series; I think he's deluding himself with any "future novel" speculation

My idea would be for a novella from the pov of one of Tytos's (and then Tywin's) household knights. He could be Ser Gregor Clegane, the father of asoiaf's Gregor and Sandor, but more like a lighter Sandor in disposition.

But I agree, GrrM really is kidding himself about lots of things. The tv series, that it can be done in 2 books. It is depressing really.

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I will say, the fact Reynes offered terms at the end in the Castamere section just makes it murder, though.

War is murder. But like others have pointed out, Tywin had to do something permanent or else there was a big chance that Tytos would piss away their victory. Plus the Reynes would be forever looking for revenge. Why spare them and risk all that, if you can kill them at basically no cost?

"Never wound an enemy when you can kill him," as Tywin says :cool4:

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War is murder. But like others have pointed out, Tywin had to do something permanent or else there was a big chance that Tytos would piss away their victory. Plus the Reynes would be forever looking for revenge. Why spare them and risk all that, if you can kill them at basically no cost?

"Never wound an enemy when you can kill him," as Tywin says :cool4:

I am one of the bigger defenders of the Rains in this thread for much of the reasons listed above. However, Tywin is also a figure who has the philosophy of, "once an enemy bends the knee, help him back up again." The Reynes had just lost a massive battle against Tywin's forces and were in the middle of a siege so it's not like they hadn't been chastised.

Tywin sacrificed the potential benefits of a surrendered bannerman now firmly under his thumb for a powerful statement of ruthlessness.

Given the Reynes could have immediately started plotting again afterward, I'm not TOO harsh on his decision but I'm pointing out there's a downside to eradicating the rival house. I will also say my sympathy for the Reynes and Tarbacks is rather low. You can't borrow money from a generous and gentle-hearted man to build yourself up then act like he's the weakling and you're the powerful lords.

That makes you thieves, not kings.

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We don't know, from the woiaf, what the Reyne terms were. The reading GrrM did said they were these:

''Castamere’s defenses were such that two knights could hold the entry tunnel against thousands of men, as it was so narrow. So Reynard sent terms to Tywin, telling him to pardon them and give them his brothers as hostages. Tywin did not respond.''

That's not an offer to surrender.

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We don't know, from the woiaf, what the Reyne terms were. The reading GrrM did said they were these:

''Castamere’s defenses were such that two knights could hold the entry tunnel against thousands of men, as it was so narrow. So Reynard sent terms to Tywin, telling him to pardon them and give them his brothers as hostages. Tywin did not respond.''

That's not an offer to surrender.

They weren't very smart, were they? Why on Earth did they think Tywin would accept those terms?

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We don't know, from the woiaf, what the Reyne terms were. The reading GrrM did said they were these:

''Castamere’s defenses were such that two knights could hold the entry tunnel against thousands of men, as it was so narrow. So Reynard sent terms to Tywin, telling him to pardon them and give them his brothers as hostages. Tywin did not respond.''

That's not an offer to surrender.

Yeah, if those were his terms then **** those guys.

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Brutal, but justified.



Its sort of implied that the Reynes + Tarbecks were circling like vultures over Casterly Rock for years, thinking the Lannisters were weak. Its likely either one of them would have wanted to extinguish the Lannister line as well.



Because of what happened, no rebellions in the Wastelands, and utter, absolute loyalty to House Lannister.


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Yeah, if those were his terms then **** those guys.

It reminds me of the Defiance of Duskendale. "I want my town to pay less taxes to the crown, what could I do?...mmmm....I know! I will kidnap and take hostage the king of the freaking continent and I will blackmail his heir (who will be king when he dies) and his ruthless Hand (who is said to be pissed at the king of late) so they do as I say! There is no way this plan could go wrong!"

I think many of the lords are functional illiterates who can't understand any other way to behave than the muscle-flexing they engage with the neighbours who they mutually steal sheep from each other.

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Brutal, but justified.

Its sort of implied that the Reynes + Tarbecks were circling like vultures over Casterly Rock for years, thinking the Lannisters were weak. Its likely either one of them would have wanted to extinguish the Lannister line as well.

Because of what happened, no rebellions in the Wastelands, and utter, absolute loyalty to House Lannister.

I can't even respect their position or power because the only reason they're wealthy and powerful is they borrowed money from the Lannisters with no intention of paying it back.

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It reminds me of the Defiance of Duskendale. "I want my town to pay less taxes to the crown, what could I do?...mmmm....I know! I will kidnap and take hostage the king of the freaking continent and I will blackmail his heir (who will be king when he dies) and his ruthless Hand (who is said to be pissed at the king of late) so they do as I say! There is no way this plan could go wrong!"

I think many of the lords are functional illiterates who can't understand any other way to behave than the muscle-flexing they engage with the neighbours who they mutually steal sheep from each other.

To be fair, Westeros culture is more of a tightrope than actual Medieval history where people had a great deal more understanding of things like economics and trade. Westeros seems twice as devoted as RL to the concept that if you're not murdering people all the time, you're a weakling who needs to be put down.

The Targaryens have had many Kings who loved peace more than war and it caused them all manner of ****.

Tytos Lannister seems like a swell guy and probably the best Lord you could have had but people sneered at him for it and took advantage.

Which, of course, lead to them getting the smackdown because they don't realize just because a man is weak (for some definitions) doesn't mean his HOUSE is.

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Funnily enough Reynard was described as cunning in the reading.

'Ellyn’s brothers were Roger, who was the best fighter in the west, and Reynard (sp?), who was a cunning, smooth talker.'

Well, I have noticed that in Westeros a cunning, smooth talker means something quite different than in our own world. Reynard probably told witty japes, and was able to tell convincing lies, and that's all.

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Well, I have noticed that in Westeros a cunning, smooth talker means something quite different than in our own world. Reynard probably told witty japes, and was able to tell convincing lies, and that's all.

I think someone who was really cunning in Reynard's position would know the game was up. He'd be offering hostages to Tywin, in return for peace. And even that may not have been enough. Demanding hostages from Tywin was lunacy.

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I think someone who was really cunning in Reynard's position would know the game was up. He'd be offering hostages to Tywin, in return for peace. And even that may not have been enough. Demanding hostages from Tywin was lunacy.

Pride seems to be the flaw of Westeros' houses and to an almost superhuman degree.

For the Reynes, it seems he couldn't wrap his head around the idea the Lannisters had not only beaten him but were there on a mission of revenge.

They're like the Greyjoys in they can ignore reality for their benefit.

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To be fair, Westeros culture is more of a tightrope than actual Medieval history where people had a great deal more understanding of things like economics and trade. Westeros seems twice as devoted as RL to the concept that if you're not murdering people all the time, you're a weakling who needs to be put down.

The Targaryens have had many Kings who loved peace more than war and it caused them all manner of ****.

Tytos Lannister seems like a swell guy and probably the best Lord you could have had but people sneered at him for it and took advantage.

Which, of course, lead to them getting the smackdown because they don't realize just because a man is weak (for some definitions) doesn't mean his HOUSE is.

It's rather like the Russian view that a ruler who isn't dealing very roughly with his enemies is a pussy. If Ser Edmure is ever restored to power, he'll probably have people taking advantage of him in the same way.

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