Dany has a better claim than Aegon?

[The Twinslayer]

TWOIAF suggests that the Targaryen Kings named their successors by making them Prince or Princess of Dragonstone.

It also indicates that after Rhaegar died, Viserys came before Rhaegar's children in the line of succession:

[Aerys] sent his pregnant queen, Rhaella, and his younger son and new heir, Viserys, away to Dragonstone, but Princess Elia was forced to remain in King's Landing with Rhaegar's children as hostage against Dorne.

This, of course, is consistent with the precedent set in the Great Council of 233, where Egg took his father's throne ahead of his (Egg's) older brother's son.

Then, Viserys was crowned on Dragonstone almost immediately after Aerys died. Per the app:

Viserys was declared king on Dragonstone. Nine turns of the moon later, however, the royal fleet was smashed in a storm, and at the same time Rhaella died while giving birth to Daenerys

We know Viserys was crowned immediately upon the Sack of King's Landing because we get this from Dany in Game of Thrones:

She had been born on Dragonstone nine moons after their flight, while a raging summer storm threatened to rip the island fastness apart.

Dany was born nine moons after Viserys and Rhaella fled to Dragonstone. And Viserys was crowned nine moons before Dany was born. So Viserys succeeded Aerys as the Targaryen king as soon as Aerys died.

And he reigned for at least nine months before he was run off Dragonstone.

So the question is, who was Viserys' heir? Dany. He named her Princess of Dragonstone:

Beneath an arch of twining stone leaves, a eunuch sang their coming. "Viserys, of the House Targaryen, the Third of his Name," he called in a sweet, high voice, "King of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm. His sister, Daenerys Stormborn, Princess of Dragonstone."

So the Targaryen succession went: Aerys-Viserys-Daenerys. And Rhaegar's children can only come after Dany.

So Dany has a better claim than Aegon. Perhaps that is why Dany is called "Queen" while Aegon is called "Prince."

[UnmaskedLurker]

Or maybe they have competing claims and GC needs to be called to resolve the dispute--EXCEPT the Targ dynasty was overthrown by right of conquest so if either wants the throne, it will require a new victory by right of conquest. But it is possible that if (f)Aegon takes the throne, Dany might try to get him to step down under this theory that even if he is the real Aegon, Dany comes before him in Targ succession because Aerys named Viserys and Viserys named Dany. Of course, Aegon will refuse, setting up DoD 2.0, which Aegon will lose. That is my prediction. I don't have a very high degree of confidence in it coming out that way, but I think it could happen that way. There are some clues pointing in this direction.

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

A few issues:

1) When Viserys was actually crowned, Aegon was dead. So whatever Aerys did or did not do was irrelevant to Viserys being crowned. He was the heir pretty much any way you slice it.

2) While Viserys may have named Daenerys his heir, that designation may not be worth very much, since Viserys never held the Iron Throne or any sort of political power

3) Aegon being styled as Prince rather than King may simply be due to not wanting to instigate a war with Daenerys. Don't forget, the original plan was for Aegon to ally with Daenerys. Styling himself as King would probably not all that conducive to alliance building

4) The issue of claims here is purely academic. It's mostly an academic issue in most cases. In this case, even more so. Neither Aegon nor Daenerys hold the Iron Throne. If they want to it, they'll either have to win it through force or after being granted the throne by a Great Council or something of the sort.

In a practical sense, Dany probably does have the much stronger claim: dragons

[Bluetiger]

Viserys was crowned and Dany become his heir, because everyone thought that true heir of Rhaegar - Aegon was killed. If Young Griff is a real son of Rhaegar he is first in Targaryen line of succesion to IT

[naseridrl]

I don't really think it matters who has claim for what. Even if Dany was 10th in line she has the dragons that vaults her into a totally different league.

[Ser Knute]

Dany's claim is better, because she claims; I will take back what is rightfully mine! She's no fool, she knows a claim means diddly, it's all about conquest at this point.

While Aegon appears to be putting his 'claim' a bit higher on his list than conquest. Aegon's in a dubious position because the GC alone won't be able to take the throne, which means they need allies. These allies however, may not be the kind of allies Dany wants or cares for nor may they be sufficient enough for Aegon to take the IT absent Dany's forces. So, eventually, Aegon and the GC's advance is going to stall waiting for either stronger alliances to be made or for Dany to get her hiney on over to Westeros. The Tyrells could pull off yet another 're-alignment' though, wouldn't surprise me at all, in which case the path to the IT could be much more quicker than anticipated both by Aegon and his gang as well as us the readers. Plus, you add in the fact that just as the WOT5K is starting to die down, here comes another alleged Targaryen and people might not be as welcoming as he (or people in the GC) expect. Then of course you have to factor in that she has dragons and he doesn't, at least for now. I suspect a Dance 2.0 like a lot of folks do, but that means that someone has to acquire one of Dany's, which is not going to make her happy.

I think the key for both is going to be Dorne, whom of course are going to be a li'l salty with Dany for what happened to Quentyn, although, if his companions are truthful, Doran will have to concede that Quentyn was mostly responsible for his own death.

I'm getting ahead of myself a little though...

[UnmaskedLurker]

Viserys was crowned and Dany become his heir, because everyone thought that true heir of Rhaegar - Aegon was killed. If Young Griff is a real son of Rhaegar he is first in Targaryen line of succesion to IT

The point is that if Aerys named Viserys specifically as the heir (over Aegon) and then Viserys named Dany his heir, Dany would personally believe she came before Aegon--even if real. So what might matter is only whether Dany considers herself to come before Aegon which is why she would not bend the knee even if she thought he was the real Aegon. The fact that the Targs were removed from IT is irrelevant because Dany does not accept that fact.

[JonathanTheBold]

The point is that if Aerys named Viserys specifically as the heir (over Aegon) and then Viserys named Dany his heir, Dany would personally believe she came before Aegon--even if real. So what might matter is only whether Dany considers herself to come before Aegon which is why she would not bend the knee even if she thought he was the real Aegon. The fact that the Targs were removed from IT is irrelevant because Dany does not accept that fact.

Areys didn't pass over aegon it was thought he's dead there's a differnce

[UnmaskedLurker]

Areys didn't pass over aegon it was thought he's dead there's a differnce

In WoIaF, there is a reference that Aerys sent his new heir, Viserys, to Dragonstone. Aegon was still alive at that point--so Aegon should have been considered Aerys's heir at the time Viserys was sent to Dragonstone--not Viserys as the new heir. One working theory is that after the death of Rhaegar at the Trident, Aerys named Viserys as the new heir and displaced Aegon. If that theory is true and if that information was communicated to Dany, she would consider herself to be Viserys's heir and would consider Aegon--even the real Aegon--to be behind her in the order of succession. This information from WoIaF obviously is new and it is not 100% clear it means what I have stated it might mean, but it is a working theory.

[Ser Lepus]

Viserys probably was acknowledged as official crown prince after Rhaegar's death, so he would probably be considered the heir even if Aegon had better rights, strictly speaking (being the oldest son of the previous crown prince).

But Targaryen men go before Targaryen women in the line of succession, so Aegon would go before Daenerys. And even without taking gender into account, Aegon would still have better rights than Daenerys (being the first son of Aerys's first son), and since Aerys didn't make Daenerys official heir like he did to Viserys, those rights weren't overruled.

Problem is, nobody can be sure if Aegon really is Aegon. He's officially dead, and hasn't been seen since he was almost a toddler, while Daenerys is known to everybody. And Daenerys has dragons, which both make her a more attractive candidate (that is, more likely to keep the throne on the long run) and proves that she has dragonrider blood (which helps support her claim of being a Targaryen, if anybody were inclined to question that).

[UnmaskedLurker]

Viserys probably was acknowledged as official crown prince after Rhaegar's death, so he would probably be considered the heir even if Aegon had better rights, strictly speaking (being the oldest son of the previous crown prince).

But Targaryen men go before Targaryen women in the line of succession, so Aegon would go before Daenerys. And even without taking gender into account, Aegon would still have better rights than Daenerys (being the first son of Aerys's first son), and since Aerys didn't make Daenerys official heir like he did to Viserys, those rights weren't overruled.

Problem is, nobody can be sure if Aegon really is Aegon. He's officially dead, and hasn't been seen since he was almost a toddler, while Daenerys is known to everybody. And Daenerys has dragons, which both make her a more attractive candidate (that is, more likely to keep the throne on the long run) and proves that she has dragonrider blood (which helps support her claim of being a Targaryen, if anybody were inclined to question that).

If Aerys really named Viserys as the new heir, it throws everything off. If Viserys officially named Dany as his heir, it throws everything off. But either way, the point is that Dany has a basis to deny Aegon's claim. It does not matter if she is right or wrong "legally" as this is not about legal succession--this is about coming up with a justification for war. Dany has her "colorable claim" that can be a basis for justifying war against Aegon--without having to insist that Aegon is not legit--or maybe more specifically--by saying that it does not matter whether Aegon is legit. Whether Dany is "legally" correct at that point is irrelevant--it gives her legal "cover" to claim she has the legal right over Aegon and justify going to war against him.

[Ser Lepus]

If Aerys really named Viserys as the new heir, it throws everything off. If Viserys officially named Dany as his heir, it throws everything off. But either way, the point is that Dany has a basis to deny Aegon's claim. It does not matter if she is right or wrong "legally" as this is not about legal succession--this is about coming up with a justification for war. Dany has her "colorable claim" that can be a basis for justifying war against Aegon--without having to insist that Aegon is not legit--or maybe more specifically--by saying that it does not matter whether Aegon is legit. Whether Dany is "legally" correct at that point is irrelevant--it gives her legal "cover" to claim she has the legal right over Aegon and justify going to war against him.

Did Viserys even think necessary to make Dany his official heir, when he thought that she was his only surviving relative? And if so, does Dany have a document showing that she was made Visery's heir?

If Dany didn't have dragons, and Aegon could flawlessly prove that he's really Aegon Targaryen, then most of the Westerosi would side with him, because he has better rights according to the Westerosi traditional line of succession, and because he's a man.

Those people who believe him a fake or who think dragons will give Dany the final victory will side with her.

Dany herself will probably believe him a fake (she's growing quite paranoid) and fight him, but if she believes him real, she will try to avoid fighting him and reach some kind of understanding. If that's not possible she will doubt her own right to take the throne from Rhaegar's son and will feel conflicted about it, but she will probably still fight him, because that's her goal in life and because she probably thinks that her dragons are a sign that she's destined to rule.

But anyways, I don't think Viserys making her his heir will play a part in her decision, because are we (or she) really sure that Viserys would have picked her as heir over Aegon if he knew that he was alive?

[UnmaskedLurker]

Did Viserys even think necessary to make Dany his official heir, when he thought that she was his only surviving relative? And if so, does Dany have a document showing that she was made Visery's heir?

If Dany didn't have dragons, and Aegon could flawlessly prove that he's really Aegon Targaryen, then most of the Westerosi would side with him, because he has better rights according to the Westerosi traditional line of succession, and because he's a man.

Those people who believe him a fake or who think dragons will give Dany the final victory will side with her.

Dany herself will probably believe him a fake (she's growing quite paranoid) and fight him, but if she believes him real, she will try to avoid fighting him and reach some kind of understanding. If that's not possible she will doubt her own right to take the throne from Rhaegar's son and will feel conflicted about it, but she will probably still fight him, because that's her goal in life and because she probably thinks that her dragons are a sign that she's destined to rule.

But anyways, I don't think Viserys making her his heir will play a part in her decision, because are we (or she) really sure that Viserys would have picked her as heir over Aegon if he knew that he was alive?

I think you give Dany too much credit for being able to view the situation completely objectively and rationally. I think she will come up with every possible excuse not to recognize Aegon as the legit king--whether the arguments are really persuasive or not, she will use whatever arguments could possibly use to justify her actions, which will be to go to war against Aegon. Again, this is really just a guess on my part, but it is what I really suspect might happen.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

Think you just hit on the trigger for the Dance of the Dragons 2.0, which will be another convoluted claim versus claim situation.

Rhaenyra's claim: older; only child from first marriage; named heir; more Targ blood

Aegon II's claim: son

So, one has a "traditionally strong" claim (son) but the other has extenuating circumstances bolstering her otherwise weaker claim.

Now see this:

Aegon VI's claim: only son of deceased Prince of Dragonstone

Dany's claim: sole heir of the last legitimate Prince of Dragonstone (Viserys), as Aerys removed Aegon from the succession; more Targ blood

It makes sense Aerys removed Aegon, because he saw Rhaegar's defeat at the Trident as a Dornish betrayal. He says as much, and he already suspected the Dornish enough to keep Elia and the children at the Red Keep. His suspicions apparently confirmed, he decides to deny the Dornish what (he thinks) they've obviously been plotting toward: baby Aegon on the throne, with a Dornish regency.

ETA: even the amount of Targ blood will once again be brought up when the claims are compared.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Think you just hit on the trigger for the Dance of the Dragons 2.0, which will be another convoluted claim versus claim situation.

Rhaenyra's claim: older; only child from first marriage; named heir; more Targ blood

Aegon II's claim: son

So, one has a "traditionally strong" claim (son) but the other has extenuating circumstances bolstering her otherwise weaker claim.

Now see this:

Aegon VI's claim: only son of deceased Prince of Dragonstone

Dany's claim: sole heir of the last legitimate Prince of Dragonstone (Viserys), as Aerys removed Aegon from the succession; more Targ blood

It makes sense Aerys removed Aegon, because he saw Rhaegar's defeat at the Trident as a Dornish betrayal. He says as much, and he already suspected the Dornish enough to keep Elia and the children at the Red Keep. His suspicions apparently confirmed, he decides to deny the Dornish what (he thinks) they've obviously been plotting toward: baby Aegon on the throne, with a Dornish regency.

ETA: even the amount of Targ blood will once again be brought up when the claims are compared.

Yes, I agree with these points and your analysis is part of why I stated what I did about DoD 2.0. One question I am still pondering is whether (f)Aegon will get a dragon, and whether Drogon will eat (f)Aegon (to parallel DoD 1.0).

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

Yes, I agree with these points and your analysis is part of why I stated what I did about DoD 2.0. One question I am still pondering is whether (f)Aegon will get a dragon, and whether Drogon will eat (f)Aegon (to parallel DoD 1.0).

I think the eating would be too much of a parallel. One of the interviews around TWOIAF was about people's tendency to over-extrapolate from potentially similar past events. Based on that, maybe he won't get eaten.

It would be elegant (too much so?) if he were to try to mount a dragon and get Quentyn-ed. Although we've already had a prince try to do that (Quentyn..) so it might be lame to have it happen again.

But, at the same time, if he gets a dragon, that's too neatly pointing towards his legitimacy. Although that throws a fun spanner into Dany's story, I think a "lost heir" story is more weighty if there remains a significant doubt over his legitimacy, despite military victories.

So I'm thinking, no dragon for Aegon. He will be the mummer's dragon Dany slays. Jon will be a different story though, down the track.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I think the eating would be too much of a parallel. One of the interviews around TWOIAF was about people's tendency to over-extrapolate from potentially similar past events. Based on that, maybe he won't get eaten.

It would be elegant (too much so?) if he were to try to mount a dragon and get Quentyn-ed. Although we've already had a prince try to do that (Quentyn..) so it might be lame to have it happen again.

But, at the same time, if he gets a dragon, that's too neatly pointing towards his legitimacy. Although that throws a fun spanner into Dany's story, I think a "lost heir" story is more weighty if there remains a significant doubt over his legitimacy, despite military victories.

So I'm thinking, no dragon for Aegon. He will be the mummer's dragon Dany slays. Jon will be a different story though, down the track.

Well, but if he gets a dragon he appears to be legit--and then somehow it comes out that he is really a Blackfyre/Brightflame, so he has Targ genes, just not because he is son of Rhaegar. So imagine the intrigue, after he appear to prove who he is--just to be found out later to be a fraud but still be someone with Targ ancestry.

[joluoto2]

If Aegon is the real deal he has the best claim as the son of the Crown Prince.

[Trickrs]

Rhaenyra's claim: older; only child from first marriage; named heir; more Targ blood

Aegon II's claim: son

What? Rhaenyra's mother was a Arryn of the Eyrie, how they have "more targ blood"

[joluoto2]

What? Rhaenyra's mother was a Arryn of the Eyrie, how they have "more targ blood"

Aemma Arryn's mother was a Targ.