[TWOIAF Spoilers] Unbroken line of male succession

[thelittledragonthatcould]

The council was needed to choose the sucessor but not the name. It basically what happened with the Baratheons but the name wasnt preserved.

I'm sorry, but it was not like the Baratheon situation. Orys didn't win the lands by marrying a Durendon woman, but was given the lands by Aegon and then chose to marry her and took her families sigil presumably because as a bastard he did not have one of his own.

Gerold had one child already married and the line continued through that union with the husband taking her name. Considering that this was decided by the Kings Council it does not sound like it was against Lannister interests.

Also the Leffords still exist to this day, why would the Lord Lefford allow his son to take the best settlement in the Westerlands if it was through conquest?

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

I'm sorry, but it was not like the Baratheon situation. Orys didn't win the lands by marrying a Durendon woman, but was given the lands by Aegon and then chose to marry her and took her families sigil presumably because as a bastard he did not have one of his own.

Gerold had one child already married and the line continued through that union with the husband taking her name. Considering that this was decided by the Kings Council.

Also the Leffords still exist to this day, why would the Lord Lofford allow his son to take the best settlement in the Westerlands if it was through conquest?

Do you think Orys chose to marry her out of the goodness of his heart? No. He married her so she wouldn't have children with someone else who would then rebel with the Durrandon name. He was very much securing her claim. Letters patent are meaningless. If a male Durrandon rose, who would the bannermen flock to? There was a reason he took the words and the banner too. He could have made his own.

I never said it was conquest.

[RumHam]

Do you think Orys chose to marry her out of the goodness of his heart? No. He married her so she wouldn't have children with someone else who would then rebel with the Durrandon name. He was very much securing her claim. Letters patent are meaningless. If a male Durrandon rose, who would the bannermen flock to? There was a reason he took the words and the banner too. He could have made his own.

I never said it was conquest.

That's true, but if she was hideously ugly or something he could have just killed her to ensure her heirs weren't an issue. So I think he was probably attracted to her and that played a role.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Do you think Orys chose to marry her out of the goodness of his heart? No. He married her so she wouldn't have children with someone else who would then rebel with the Durrandon name. He was very much securing her claim. Letters patent are meaningless. If a male Durrandon rose, who would the bannermen flock to? There was a reason he took the words and the banner too. He could have made his own.

I never said it was conquest.

Her own men in Storms End delivered her "gagged chained and naked". Orys could have done anything he wanted, sent her to become a Silent Sister, kept her at court as his hostage, he even could have had her killed.

It was his choice to marry her, had he not he still would have been Lord of Storms End backed by the King of Westeros.

House Baratheon, despite its sigil, is a 300 year old House. The Lannisters remained the Lannisters after the death of Gerold III.

[Dofs]

A council was called because there were no male heirs. They didn't want a woman reigning otherwise a council wouldn't be needed. It was decided her husband would rule as monarch, she would be Queen consort.

'a council crowned his only daughters husband'

They did not crown the daughter as monarch

'Ser Joffery Lydden, who took the Lannister name and became the first Andal to rule the Rock.'

Joffrey Lydden took the name Lannister of his wife, became King Regnant and ruled. She did not.

A council was not called because Gerion didn't have male heirs. It was called because he didn't have sons and his daughter by law inherited the Rock. Gerion could have had a lot of brothers, cousins, nephews etc. The council crowned that daughter's husband because, well, she had a husband, and in Westeros husband>wife, especially king>queen so by definition he would become the ruling monarch through her. If she didn't have a husband, she would be the ruling monarch, but she did, so her husband became one.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Her own men in Storms End delivered her "gagged chained and naked". Orys could have done anything he wanted, sent her to become a Silent Sister, kept her at court as his hostage, he even could have had her killed.

It was his choice to marry her, had he not he still would have been Lord of Storms End backed by the King of Westeros.

House Baratheon, despite its sigil, is a 300 year old House. The Lannisters remained the Lannisters after the death of Gerold III.

Maybe he had some decency not to kill an unarmed woman at his mercy? And just because they didnt want to take notice of a woman and get roasted by a dragon doesnt mean they have loyalty especially if you can ger a son or grandson in place.

You can run from court ask Arya and Sansa. And you can refuse the sisterhood.

The old house continues in the female bloodline. Only the name is gone. Name isnt everything. Name didnt change the fact Davos Baratheon was Argillac's Grandson and he or a brother was his heir. Just like Harry is of the Arryn line through his mother and he is Robert's heir. If he takes the Arryn name somehow the biology changes?

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

A council was not called because Gerion didn't have male heirs. It was called because he didn't have sons and his daughter by law inherited the Rock. Gerion could have had a lot of brothers, cousins, nephews etc. The council crowned that daughter's husband because, well, she had a husband, and in Westeros husband>wife, especially king>queen so by definition he would become the ruling monarch through her. If she didn't have a husband, she would be the ruling monarch, but she did, so her husband became one.

Nothing in the text supports your assertion. You cant know he had brothers or uncles to pass over her, the fact a council was called suggests this was unlikely otherwise they would have chosen the lannister male. There wasnt one. Just a daughter. They didnt like this option and seemed set against her ruling, hence he council otherwise she would have inherited naturaly by law with no intervention needed.

The husband was chosen because his children would be Lannister heirs through the mother. In the meantime, the non-Lannister ruled by council vote because he was a man and they did not want a woman. If Myrcella becomes queen and marries Trystane he doesnt become monarch. Its based on bloodline. She becomes Queen as Robert was King. She inherits, not him by law. There is no evidence that a man is crowned monarch by virtue of marrying an heiress. The Westerlands Lords intervened and made sure she did not reign.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Just like Harry is of the Arryn line through his mother and he is Robert's heir. If he takes the Arryn name somehow the biology changes?

He already has Arryn biology, I don't understand your point.

Maybe he had some decency not to kill an unarmed woman at his mercy?

So he will force her to marry him and have his children against her will but he's too decent too kill her or lock her up for life?

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

He already has Arryn biology, I don't understand your point. So he will force her to marry him and have his children against her will but he's too decent too kill her or lock her up for life?

Well I dont like Orys, I dont think the chivilrous side of him is true at all but even I can give him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to cold blooded woman murder. Forced marriage seems preferable to death, just look at Sansa and what she did in her position of helplessness. I still hope Argella screwed him over in the end though, although it doesnt seem she pulled a Cersei regarding he kids.

Harry is he Arryn heir, regardless of being a Hardyng. He is still of the Arryn line through his mother. By the same logic all Baratheon heirs are Durrandon heirs through Argella. So the Durrandon bloodline still rules the Stormlands under the Baratheon name. Its the same family, to say they are only 300 years old is silly looking at the facts. As I keep saying, man and woman both pass on the same amount of DNA making the whole male line thing moot. They in the story can believe this sexist claptrap, we do not have to.

[Dofs]

Nothing in the text supports your assertion. You cant know he had brothers or uncles to pass over her, the fact a council was called suggests this was unlikely otherwise they would have chosen the lannister male. There wasnt one. Just a daughter. They didnt like this option and seemed set against her ruling, hence he council otherwise she would have inherited naturaly by law with no intervention needed.

The husband was chosen because his children would be Lannister heirs through the mother. In the meantime, the non-Lannister ruled by council vote because he was a man and they did not want a woman. If Myrcella becomes queen and marries Trystane he doesnt become monarch. Its based on bloodline. She becomes Queen as Robert was King. She inherits, not him by law. There is no evidence that a man is crowned monarch by virtue of marrying an heiress. The Westerlands Lords intervened and made sure she did not reign.

As well as nothing really supports your assertion that there wasn't any Lannister male. It is said that Gerion didn't have male issues, not male heirs, so even thought it is possible that his daughter was the only existing heir, it's likely would have been written that way, that Gerion didn't have male heirs, but worldbook speaks only about issues. (Plus Lannisters of Lannisport rule the city almost since its foundation, if there was a lack of Lannisters in Casterly Rock, they could look for them in the city).

And why would the council absolutely choose a Lannister male? It isn't like Iron Throne, Gerion's daughter inherits the Rock by law of Westerlands. The council could have been gathered because of uniqueness of the situation by that time and then simply followed the law, especially if her husband was a good and able man. And the husband would then become king simply just by being a husband to a queen same as Cersei became a queen simply by marrying Robert. And Trystane would become king if he married queen Myrcella. That's like Ramsay became Lord of Hornwood by marrying Lady Hornwood. In Westerosi society king > queen and the king or the lord is the one who rules. It's no coincidence that every single Lady who rules her House doesn't have a husband.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Well I dont like Orys, I dont think the chivilrous side of him is true at all but even I can give him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to cold blooded woman murder. Forced marriage seems preferable to death, just look at Sansa and what she did in her position of helplessness. I still hope Argella screwed him over in the end though, although it doesnt seem she pulled a Cersei regarding he kids.

Harry is he Arryn heir, regardless of being a Hardyng. He is still of the Arryn line through his mother. By the same logic all Baratheon heirs are Durrandon heirs through Argella. So the Durrandon bloodline still rules the Stormlands under the Baratheon name. Its the same family, to say they are only 300 years old is silly looking at the facts. As I keep saying, man and woman both pass on the same amount of DNA making the whole male line thing moot. They in the story can believe this sexist claptrap, we do not have to.

I'm not sure what your overall point is? If Harry is to inherit the Arryn lands he will take the Arryn name. It is not like he is the only person alive with Arryn blood, he is just the closest in succession. It is highly unlikely that this is the first this has happened in the 2,000 years the Arryns have been around. In fact looking at the History book many of the families around in the present day are over a 1,000 years old. They can't all have had male heirs every generation.

Similarly Lydden and his children would have taken the Lannister name to inherit her lands which is a practice that is done in Dorne.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

As well as nothing really supports your assertion that there wasn't any Lannister male. It is said that Gerion didn't have male issues, not male heirs, so even thought it is possible that his daughter was the only existing heir,

True. We are told that there were so many Lannisters that Casterly Rock could not contain them all. It is highly unlikely that Gerold III had no male relations still alive.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

As well as nothing really supports your assertion that there wasn't any Lannister male. It is said that Gerion didn't have male issues, not male heirs, so even thought it is possible that his daughter was the only existing heir, it's likely would have been written that way, that Gerion didn't have male heirs, but worldbook speaks only about issues. (Plus Lannisters of Lannisport rule the city almost since its foundation, if there was a lack of Lannisters in Casterly Rock, they could look for them in the city).

And why would the council absolutely choose a Lannister male? It isn't like Iron Throne, Gerion's daughter inherits the Rock by law of Westerlands. The council could have been gathered because of uniqueness of the situation by that time and then simply followed the law, especially if her husband was a good and able man. And the husband would then become king simply just by being a husband to a queen same as Cersei became a queen simply by marrying Robert. And Trystane would become king if he married queen Myrcella. That's like Ramsay became Lord of Hornwood by marrying Lady Hornwood. In Westerosi society king > queen and the king or the lord is the one who rules. It's no coincidence that every single Lady who rules her House doesn't have a husband.

You think that the council would crown the woman's husband who isn't a Lannister over Lannister heirs? You give him a crown and the Lannister woman dies without issue, the crown stays with him. He marries again and his children are heirs. They would not be Lannisters. You think house Lannister would settle for that? Its possible there are male Lannisters in Lannisport several generations removed like the Arryns of Gulltown but they would not be an option.

Cersei became Queen Consort, she did not become monarch. Robert was King Regnant, Robert sat on the throne. Trystane could become King in name but he will not be monarch unless the small council intervenes, look at the distinction made. Why was Hoster training Cat to be his heir if he could just have married her off and got a pre-ready one? Because she would be the Lady of Riverrun, Lady Paramount of the Riverlands. Her husband would not gain those rights, he is not a Tully but he would get a title he would not have the power. Of course, in their sexist society how many men would accept that?

I'm not sure what your overall point is? If Harry is to inherit the Arryn lands he will take the Arryn name. It is not like he is the only person alive with Arryn blood, he is just the closest in succession. It is highly unlikely that this is the first this has happened in the 2,000 years the Arryns have been around. In fact looking at the History book many of the families around in the present day are over a 1,000 years old. They can't all have had male heirs every generation.

Similarly Lydden and his children would have taken the Lannister name to inherit her lands which is a practice that is done in Dorne.

Harry is an Arryn through his mothers line.

Harry is named Hardyng.

Harry is still heir to Robert Arryn despite being a Hardyng.

No one is saying that Robert isn't possibly an Arryn because his name is Hardyng.

They are going by his blood, not his name.

Even if he stayed a Hardyng, he would still be inheriting through the Arryn Line.

He inherits because he is of the same family as Robert.

Simple enough. Now, we were comparing it to the Baratheons. Lets use Davos Baratheon in Harry's place here.

Davos is a Durrandon through his mothers line.

Davos is named Baratheon

Davos is still heir to Argilac despite being a Baratheon.

People are saying that Davos isnt possibly a Durrandon because is name is Baratheon

They are going by his name, not his blood

He stays a Baratheon but he is still inheriting the claim of the Storm Kings through the Durrandon Line.

He inherits the claim because he is of the same family as Argilac.

Point being. The situations are the same. People are getting confused by names. If the Lannister line is considered unbroken despite going through the female line why is the Durrandon line considered broken by going down the female line? Its the same family that ruled for 6000 years. You have to remember that in the real world, Royal Houses are different branches of the same family and not different families eg, York and Lancaster.

I agree the Lannister line is unbroken, but I also believe the Durrandon-Baratheon line is unbroken and the Stark line is unbroken even if Bael is right. And if Harry inherits, does it even matter? He's still an Arryn.

[joluoto2]

My guess is that many of the old Houses could have gone through the female line at one point or another in their long history.

[JonathanTheBold]

what about house webber in the sworn sword house Webber is run by a woman who is the only descendant of the previous lord and its make its vary clear that when she has a child it will continue the webber line at coldmoat and from the story it's pretty obvious this isn't thre first time it's happened in westeros

[aryagonnakill#2]

AryaNymeriaVisenya what you said above is not correct. If a random male married a Lannister daughter and she inherited the title and then he became king as her husband, if she died he would no longer be king. We have 2 examples of this. 1st is Lysa Tully and Robert Aryn. Lysa is only in charge because she has Robert Aryn, who is really in charge. Once Robert is of age Lysa is nothing.

2nd is Joffrey and Margery. Margery was not queen after Joffrey died, and would not be queen if Tommen died.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

You think that the council would crown the woman's husband who isn't a Lannister over Lannister heirs? You give him a crown and the Lannister woman dies without issue, the crown stays with him. He marries again and his children are heirs. They would not be Lannisters. You think house Lannister would settle for that?

You are working under the assumption that they didn't already have children. I think it's highly unlikely that the Lannister Council would give the Kingdom to a Knight who had no heirs.

[naseridrl]

I wonder many houses actually have carried on the blood? Cersei is by no means the first I'm sure to pass off someone else's kids as her husbands. The only way to carry on bloodlines with greatest certainty is to go through the female line.

[Dofs]

You think that the council would crown the woman's husband who isn't a Lannister over Lannister heirs? You give him a crown and the Lannister woman dies without issue, the crown stays with him. He marries again and his children are heirs. They would not be Lannisters. You think house Lannister would settle for that? Its possible there are male Lannisters in Lannisport several generations removed like the Arryns of Gulltown but they would not be an option.

Cersei became Queen Consort, she did not become monarch. Robert was King Regnant, Robert sat on the throne. Trystane could become King in name but he will not be monarch unless the small council intervenes, look at the distinction made. Why was Hoster training Cat to be his heir if he could just have married her off and got a pre-ready one? Because she would be the Lady of Riverrun, Lady Paramount of the Riverlands. Her husband would not gain those rights, he is not a Tully but he would get a title he would not have the power. Of course, in their sexist society how many men would accept that?

You logic makes it impossible for women to inherit at all. If there were very serious concerns that a woman dies without issue, what is then the point of putting women before uncles, or allowing them to inherit anything at all? Even by your own example of Cat, what if she becomes Lady of Riverrun, marries someone and dies without issues, what then would happen with Cat's husband? I am fairly sure, that Cat's husband's children would not become heir's to Riverrun, same as Gerion's daughter's husband would not stay as a king. The king would become the one, who would be next in the succession.

[JonathanTheBold]

You logic makes it impossible for women to inherit at all. If there were very serious concerns that a woman dies without issue, what is then the point of putting women before uncles, or allowing them to inherit anything at all? Even by your own example of Cat, what if she becomes Lady of Riverrun, marries someone and dies without issues, what then would happen with Cat's husband? I am fairly sure, that Cat's husband's children would not become heir's to Riverrun, same as Gerion's daughter's husband would not stay as a king. The king would become the one, who would be next in the succession.

how it would work is cat becomes lady paramount or queen and her husband would become king consort and nothing more thei children would be considered Tullys atleast Her oldest depend on what house her husband was from the second child would take the name of his fathers house assuming his father is the heir to his house and continue that line but if she dies without issue it would pass to one of her relatives