R+L=J v.113

[sj4iy]

No, no, no. I'm not suggesting Martin would change the solution to his mystery. I'm suggesting that the solution was never what you think.

And Martin himself says "People figured it out by 1998" and he didn't change it. The solution was ALWAYS what we thought.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

And Martin himself says "People figured it out by 1998" and he didn't change it. The solution was ALWAYS what we thought.

Well, maybe I should rephrase. I guess what I'm saying is that you aren't necessarily the people he was talking about.

[wolfmaid7]

There is no other possibility for Jon's father. Rhaegar and Lyanna were together at the time he was conceived. They have a clearly established prior relationship. Rhaegar's last word was "Lyanna" (and yes, that was confirmed). They have many, many people saying that they were in love. We have an insane amount of blue rose symbolism.

Jon may look like his mother, but he and Rhaegar also share many personality traits. Look how how Barristan describes Rhaegar in these two different passages:

“Able. That above all. Determined, deliberate, dutiful, single-minded."

“But I am not certain it was in Rhaegar to be happy.”

“You make him sound so sour,” Dany protested.

“Not sour, no, but... there was a melancholy to Prince Rhaegar...”

Jon and Rhaegar's personalities are very much the same. Sullen, dutiful, determined, and able. Jon is an excellent fighter like his father, and an excellent rider like his mother.

I don't see how, with Lyanna as his mother, there is any other possibility but Rhaegar for his father.

Sj4ij you make the statement that Rheagar and Lya have an "established" relationship.I guess i'm asking when were they suppossed to have fallen in love .When did they have time or should i be asking where in the text does it imply that they had even seen or corresponded wth each other at the tourney,after the tourney up until Lya ran into Rheagar in the Riverlands (if i'm in correct about the local do correct me).

I agree per GRRM's statement that Rheagar's last word was Lyanna. What was the context in which he spoke her name?

As to Jon's personality you know you also just described Ned there's a few point blank observations about the Starks sullen mien. I would also call Ned and Benjen dutiful etc. Blue rose symbolism links Jon to Lya as i've said .I think of blue roses i think of Lya.

Holes could be punched through all that you just given me.

That's an interesting idea, and thoughts like that are definitely worth having. But as a practical matter, it ends up eschewing close and careful analysis of the actual text of ASoIaF, for somewhat vague philosophizing. I don't think GRRM is interested in social experiments nearly as much as he is in telling a good story.

Isn't that subjective though. Snowy's analysis is close and careful it's just an alternative.

We have numerous accounts of Rhaegar and Lyanna running off together. Only Robert suggests that Lyanna was kidnapped and raped. Everyone else makes it sound like a love affair.

R+L=J isn't an attempt to 'clean up' Jon's lineage. It's looking at the evidence presented all throughout the books and putting it all together into a coherent story. Dany was conceived of rape, but I don't see anyone attempting to 'clean up' her origins. Nor would I attempt to 'clean up' Jon's origins if the same applied to him. Why would I care? Why would anyone care?

I haven't 'convinced myself' of anything. The BOOK has convinced me. I didn't start out with the conclusion "Jon is a secret prince!" and work backwards...I started out with what the book presented me- that Jon was Ned's bastard with an unknown mother. It was only after the clues started pointing to something else did I question the story we were given and try to find an alternative explanation that fit the evidence.

According to the link in your sig and my memory Bran also has this idea in his head that Rheagar raped Lyanna.But i guess he must of come up with that all by his lonesome. 8yr olds.

To your other statement "every one makes it sound like a love affair" who is everyone? And was everyone there? Barring Barristan's statement which is also subjective all we have is.

1. Rheagar crown's Lya queen of love an beauty because? The answer is important

2.That was the only contact we know of during the tourney. Nothing from no one in between saying,seeing anything of them that would say they were in love

3.Sometime later Lyanna meets Ray Ray in the Riverlands and they take off.Answer is important.

There is a lack of ,lack of well ........Them

[IceFire125]

Regarding GRRM's butler... even if the mystery he's referring to is the mystery of Jon's parents, I'm suggesting that his quote doesn't tell me the butler was Rhaegar. I agree that Jon's parentage was probably the correct puzzle.

Because the 'maid butler' in GRRM's analogy is Rhaegar/Lyanna, not the 'butler maid'.

The 'butler maid' is all of these:

Ned/Ashara and Brandon/Ashara, the two most known and argued about. Another worthy but not popular is Rhaegar/Ashara...

The 'maid butler' is this:

Rhaegar/Lyanna, more importantly the careful readers are they who conclude that Rhaegar/Lyanna were married, thus Jon is legitimate.

edit:

I got that reverse.

[JonSnow4President]

Because the 'maid' in GRRM's analogy is Rhaegar/Lyanna, not the 'butler'.

The 'butler' is all of these:

Ned/Ashara and Brandon/Ashara, the two most known and argued about. Another worthy but not popular is Rhaegar/Ashara...

The 'maid' is this:

Rhaegar/Lyanna, more importantly the careful readers are they who conclude that Rhaegar/Lyanna were married, thus Jon is legitimate.

Well, considering Brandon is impossible unless Lyanna has a magical time distorting womb, and Lyanna was separated from Ned for just as long, I fail to see how they are the butler, at least until we establish Lyanna has a magical babymaker.

[IceFire125]

Well, considering Brandon is impossible unless Lyanna has a magical time distorting womb, and Lyanna was separated from Ned for just as long, I fail to see how they are the butler until we establish Lyanna has a magical babymaker.

Well that's the point others have made, that if not Rhaegar and Lyanna, then who?

And whoever he is, must fall and fit in the factors that Rhaegar and Lyanna have in terms of storyline, timeline, hints, clues or wordplay and foreshadowing

[sj4iy]

Well, maybe I should rephrase. I guess what I'm saying is that you aren't necessarily the people he was talking about.

Of course I'm not. I only started reading the books in 2007.

But I know very well that R+L=J has been around since book 1, because like you said- the clues are obviously there and abundant in the first book. And I know very well that there isn't any other mystery that Martin set up in book 1 but has yet to reveal by book 5- EXCEPT Jon's parentage. Name me one other mystery from book one that has yet to be well and truly resolved and had enough information in the first book for people to piece it together and I'll consider your alternative.

Sj4ij you make the statement that Rheagar and Lya have an "established" relationship.

It's sj4iy. And their relationship is 'established' at Harrenhall when Rhaegar rides by his own wife in front of all of the nobility of Westeros to present Lyanna with a blue-rose crown. That pretty well 'established' their relationship for the entire world to see.

I guess i'm asking when were they suppossed to have fallen in love. When did they have time or should i be asking where in the text does it imply that they had even seen or corresponded wth each other at the tourney,after the tourney up until Lya ran into Rheagar in the Riverlands (if i'm in correct about the local do correct me).

How would I know when they fell in love? I simply stated that every character BUT for Robert contends that Rhaegar loved Lyanna. Martin even confirmed that Rhaegar died saying her name. I haven't made some sort of ridiculous leap of mental gymnastics. The story pins them together in every single book.

Better for Daenerys, and for Westeros. Daenerys Targaryen loved her captain, but that was the girl in her, not the queen. Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it.

You're not exactly offering up any viable alternatives, though, as I can see.

I agree per GRRM's statement that Rheagar's last word was Lyanna. What was the context in which he spoke her name?

Well, I'm sure he was cursing her name for getting him killed.

As to Jon's personality you know you also just described Ned there's a few point blank observations about the Starks sullen mien. I would also call Ned and Benjen dutiful etc. Blue rose symbolism links Jon to Lya as i've said .I think of blue roses i think of Lya.

You could describe anyone however you want.

The BOOK describes Jon and Rhaegar as having very similar personality traits.

Holes could be punched through all that you just given me.

I didn't give those to you as incontrovertible proof of anything. I gave them as illustrations of a connection between Rhaegar and Jon, as you said you saw none.

In any case, here is the absolutely indisputable evidence- the timeline:

-Lyanna and Rhaegar ran off together before Robert's Rebellion with his most trusted friends and confidantes.

-Jon was conceived about 3 months into the war, around the time that Ned married Cat and conceived Robb.

-Rhaegar left the ToJ when Hightower was sent to retrieve him at Aerys' request.

-Rhaegar died at the Trident.

-Jon was born around the Sack of KL.

-Ned finds Hightower, Dayne and Whent- Rhaegar's best friends and the man Aerys sent to fetch Rhaegar back- at the ToJ. They are killed in combat after refusing to leave or bend the knee.

-Ned find Lyanna dying in the ToJ in a bed of blood surrounded by the smell of blue roses and clutching rose petals in her hand. She makes him promise something and then dies.

-Ned sends Jon back to Winterfell with Wylla while he runs a few errands around Westeros. Cat returns with Robb to Winterfell to find Jon and his wetnurse already established there.

None of that is subjective. None of that is exaggerated. That is the timeline we have from the books themselves.

Now, show me where, in the books, the story depicts that Lyanna was with another man romantically or sexually AT ANY TIME during that timeline.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Well, maybe I should rephrase. I guess what I'm saying is that you aren't necessarily the people he was talking about.

What else could it mean? No one in 1998 was talking about Tywin as the father of Jon--so it cannot be T+L=J. Do you mean he was referencing some other mystery altogether that people figured out in 1998, and if so, what could it be?

[J. Stargaryen]

I take it you mean that this particular post of mine doesn't present enough "close and careful analysis of the actual text" to convince you of the idea? Because you really don't know how much close and careful analysis of actual text I may have already done as I've considered it. Certainly I'm not asking anyone to "eschew close and careful analysis," or agree with this idea without due consideration of their own.

That's not what I meant, but no, not even close, now that you mention it. I was commenting on the methodology of identifying Jon's parents.

[wolfmaid7]

Of course I'm not. I only started reading the books in 2007.

But I know very well that R+L=J has been around since book 1, because like you said- the clues are obviously there and abundant in the first book. And I know very well that there isn't any other mystery that Martin set up in book 1 but has yet to reveal by book 5- EXCEPT Jon's parentage. Name me one other mystery from book one that has yet to be well and truly resolved and had enough information in the first book for people to piece it together and I'll consider your alternative.

Are you going to get "that" bent out of shape because i typed your name wrong?

Him riding by his wife and presenting Lya with blue roses is NOT an "established" relationship "between" them.You mean to tell me just drop a lei in a chick's lap means were in love and in a relationship even though i just laid eyes on her .Is it possible Sj4iy that Rheagar could have been doing a bit of political manuvering by trying to curry the favor of the North.The WB seems suggests that and it seems more seemless.

Well if you can't establish them having anything to do with each other before,during or after the tourney you can't state love and them being in an established relationship as proof.

I don't know where this every character besides Robert comes in.We have even Bran saying that Rheagar raped Lyanna ( i don't believe that) but where did he get that notion if it wasn't a belief.

I've never heard no one say anything about them being in love.Its sounds like that is a bad conclusion based on some belief that they ran off together.I already pointed out Selmy's quote which again is subjective and doens'nt jive with what we "know" .Plus that doesn't say mutual love its a onesided comment.

It could have been a question.Robert shooting first asking questions later finally remembers oh yeah Lya's missing

Robert: You wee bastard where's Lyanna?

Rheagar: Lyanna?

I'm telling you that describes atlease two Stark males.The book tells me that.

I'll get back to you on that!

[tongji86]

Since Jon looks so much like Ned, he has to be the child from one of the Stark siblings: Brandon, Ned, Lyanna or Benjen.

If his father is either Brandon or Benjen, I really see no needs for Ned to adopt him and kept his mother a secret.

If it turned out that Jon is indeed Ned's bastard in the final books of the series, then it would be such anti-climate. Why wouldn't Ned disclose this to Cat and Jon before he left for KL and Jon joined the Wall?

If Jon's mother is Lyanna, his father is most likely to be Rhaegar, because there was no clue what so ever about another man in Lyanna's life in all the five books. It would be bad writing to build up something and suddenly change things for the sake of surprise.

The women in Westeros did have a very harsh life. Almost all the main female characters were either motherless or lost their mother at young age. Poor Lyanna and Cersei were both without the care and guidance of mothers, whereas Elia and Margery were much luckier.

[The Twinslayer]

-Ned sends Jon back to Winterfell with Wylla while he runs a few errands around Westeros. Cat returns with Robb to Winterfell to find Jon and his wetnurse already established there.

I happen to agree with this, but you should be aware that there are some old timers here who think it is very important to the R+L=J theory that Wylla never set foot in Winterfell and that the wetnurse Catelyn met when she arrived at Winterfell was someone else.

[Kingmonkey]

That's not really true, it's not we don't flee, it's the Kingsguard does not flee. It is specifically stated. They even give you the time. Then with Darry the Queen and the Prince, or now. Now the clarification is the people here don't think Jon is legitimate because of what the KG did. There actions did not legitimize Jon. He was born legitimate. There actions just happen to support that.

There job is to guard the king. Was Visery' safe? No he wasn't, it's war and they are losing, badly, that's why he fled. So his life is in danger and not just from without, but from within. The KG does it's best not to go assumption, it functions on duty and what is that duty? Darry being a good man does not make Visery' safe he is one man. Being on dragonstone did not mean safe. The only way to know for sure if he was safe was to perform the first order of their duty, Guard the King. But they made sure Jon was safe. Yes they could of been following orders from Rhaegar, but with him dead and Aerys dead. Their orders would be superseded by Vary's need and they probably would of wanted to check on the kings needs, if he was indeed the king.

Except that Viserys WAS safe. There was no immediate danger to him; Dragonstone was not going to be invaded any time soon. It was nine months before Stannis had built the Baratheon fleet up enough to take Dragonstone, and that was only after the Targaryen fleet there had been smashed by a massive storm.

As I pointed out here the presence of Darry was enough. The Kingsguard would not actually have to be with Viserys even if they considered him to be the king, if they had some other duty to perform at the time.

If you believe Jon is legitimate like you say, then they already knew Jon was the heir, so they would of been doing exactly what everyone is saying they were doing by guarding him. Your own belief contradicts your point, Jon is the heir, but they are not guarding him for that reason. Do you see the contradiction? That's the problem with the argument your making, it's contradictory to your own belief.

No, there's no contradiction. I am not saying that the 3KG were not guarding Jon because they recognised him as the king, I'm saying we don't know. The 3KGs presence at the ToJ is no evidence that they considered him king, as it's entirely compatible with either scenario.

[butterbumps!]

What's funny to me is to see just how many ways Martin has hedged his bets on this "hidden prince" trope. Because really, while we're all busy over here, looking at Jon Snow and debating whether Martin is replaying or reversing the typical trope with Jon's particular narrative arc... there's this other storyline, entirely separate and lately introduced, that presents a young man who explicitly claims to be the hidden prince. And the vast, vast majority of us are convinced he's a fake - in part, because we think we already know who the hidden prince is. But wouldn't that be ironic... if Young Griff turns out to be who he claims to be. I wonder, when his chance finally comes, if he'll turn out to be a willing or a reluctant king? Does he really want a crown, or is that only a role that is thrust upon him? If it turns out that he really is the "rightful" heir to the throne, but the 7K don't want him, would he graciously decline the throne?

No disagreement with you about Robert's lack of suspicion. But that's why Ned claims Jon as his own, isn't it? I mean, if Ned's the father... Robert would never guess Lyanna was the mother.

Well, I think the introduction of Aegon as the overt iteration of the Aragorn idea is what sealed all this for me. Neither of these play out the same way, nor like the archetype being deconstructed/ reconstructed.

Jon is the guy who's probably the legit heir to the last dynasty, but won't derive any power from this. Aegon is the guy people in story will see as an "Aragorn," and will glean some power from this, but the twist is that he's not actually Rhaegar's son. And the fact that Aegon makes this claim before Jon even knows about R+L directly influences Jon's chances of ever being recognized as such (because A. Aegon is the one who actually looks the part, B. Aegon is the one known to be born of a legal union and C. how many "long lost trueborn sons of Rhaegar" will people in story actually buy).

And much of this is because of Varys' riddle underscoring everything. That's how this twist functions-- power is an illusion. So it means that Jon has no innate power by virtue of being Rhaegar's legit son (nor is it what will actually get him power in a real sense-- pressing that claim makes him look like just another jackanape pretender) because what people believe and choose to invest in is what actually matters. Aegon can get mileage out of the Rhaegar's son business because people will be inclined to believe him if it serves their interests, but all the while, it's not authentic, and as such further illustrates Varys' riddle from the opposite side.

[IceFire125]

Well, I think the introduction of Aegon as the overt iteration of the Aragorn idea is what sealed all this for me. Neither of these play out the same way, nor like the archetype being deconstructed/ reconstructed.

Jon is the guy who's probably the legit heir to the last dynasty, but won't derive any power from this. Aegon is the guy people in story will see as an "Aragorn," and will glean some power from this, but the twist is that he's not actually Rhaegar's son. And the fact that Aegon makes this claim before Jon even knows about R+L directly influences Jon's chances of ever being recognized as such (because A. Aegon is the one who actually looks the part, B. Aegon is the one known to be born of a legal union and C. how many "long lost trueborn sons of Rhaegar" will people in story actually buy).

And much of this is because of Varys' riddle underscoring everything. That's how this twist functions-- power is an illusion. So it means that Jon has no innate power by virtue of being Rhaegar's legit son (nor is it what will actually get him power in a real sense-- pressing that claim makes him look like just another jackanape pretender) because what people believe and choose to invest in is what actually matters. Aegon can get mileage out of the Rhaegar's son business because people will be inclined to believe him if it serves their interests, but all the while, it's not authentic, and as such further illustrates Varys' riddle from the opposite side.

GRRM may twist it as such, but Tolkien readers know that Jon's symbolism, history and journey (thus far in the 5 novels) is GRRM's definition to Tolkien's. Jon is GRRM's answer to Tolkien's Aragorn, in my opinion.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/117963-jon-snow-and-aragorn-similarities/

[butterbumps!]

GRRM may twist it as such, but Tolkien readers know that Jon's symbolism, history and journey (thus far in the 5 novels) is GRRM's definition to Tolkien's. Jon is GRRM's answer to Tolkien's Aragorn, in my opinion.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/117963-jon-snow-and-aragorn-similarities/

Martin's obviously playing with the "hidden prince" trope generally and even Aragorn's specifically (and doing so with both Jon and Aegon's characters).

But having similarities to these things doesn't somehow mean that Jon is actually the "rightful" king in ASOIAF, that he'll be king because of R+L=J, that becoming king of the IT is even his best interest, or that he'd actually identify as anything other than Jon Snow, resident bastard.

ETA: I'm not sure if you were disagreeing with me to say to that these parallels mean Jon's arc plays out like Aragorn's did. If not, then we're not in disagreement, and yea, I think this is Martin's version of the way a hidden price plays out.

[sj4iy]

<snip>

I wasn't "bent out of shape" about my handle. I use the search function to find replies to me and if a person has misspelled it without quoting me,I miss it.

You seem to need definitive proof that they had a long standing relationship beyond the obvious "they ran away together and were both in the ToJ during the time that Jon was conceived". Personally, I find that pretty damning evidence in its own right in regards to "Who are Jon's parents?" I don't see why further proof is necessary for this particular matter. Love isn't even necessary- timing is. And the only man that Lyanna was known to have been with at the time that Jon is conceived is Rhaegar.

[sj4iy]

Except that Viserys WAS safe. There was no immediate danger to him; Dragonstone was not going to be invaded any time soon. It was nine months before Stannis had built the Baratheon fleet up enough to take Dragonstone, and that was only after the Targaryen fleet there had been smashed by a massive storm.

As I pointed out here the presence of Darry was enough. The Kingsguard would not actually have to be with Viserys even if they considered him to be the king, if they had some other duty to perform at the time.

No, there's no contradiction. I am not saying that the 3KG were not guarding Jon because they recognised him as the king, I'm saying we don't know. The 3KGs presence at the ToJ is no evidence that they considered him king, as it's entirely compatible with either scenario.

I have to disagree. Viserys wasn't safe, as they had to flee Dragonstone after Dany's birth, and especially so given the fact that Robert wanted them both dead, even many years later when they were poor, homeless and in Essos. They were always in danger, and no true KG would have considered it their duty to leave Viserys without any KG protection whatsoever.

[Fire Eater]

Martin's obviously playing with the "hidden prince" trope generally and even Aragorn's specifically (and doing so with both Jon and Aegon's characters).

But having similarities to these things doesn't somehow mean that Jon is actually the "rightful" king in ASOIAF, that he'll be king because of R+L=J, that becoming king of the IT is even his best interest, or that he'd actually identify as anything other than Jon Snow, resident bastard.

ETA: I'm not sure if you were disagreeing with me to say to that these parallels mean Jon's arc plays out like Aragorn's did. If not, then we're not in disagreement, and yea, I think this is Martin's version of the way a hidden price plays out.

Verdict, when it comes to the hidden king trope, Aegon is the subversion while Jon is the real deal.

GRRM may twist it as such, but Tolkien readers know that Jon's symbolism, history and journey (thus far in the 5 novels) is GRRM's definition to Tolkien's. Jon is GRRM's answer to Tolkien's Aragorn, in my opinion.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/117963-jon-snow-and-aragorn-similarities/

Jon has Aragorn's coloring, a ranger in the North, etc. However, I think Jon will press his claim for reasons different from Aragorn's. Aragorn pursued the crown to be able to marry Arwen while I think Jon would pursue it if the Wall fell, and he thought it was the only way to get Dany's army and dragons to deal with the Others.

I have to disagree. Viserys wasn't safe, as they had to flee Dragonstone after Dany's birth, and especially so given the fact that Robert wanted them both dead, even many years later when they were poor, homeless and in Essos. They were always in danger, and no true KG would have considered it their duty to leave Viserys without any KG protection whatsoever.

Plus, their response as to why they weren't with Viserys was that they swore a vow. The vow of the KG is to protect the king (as said by the same guy who said "We swore a vow," LC Hightower), and their vows would have required them to go to Dragonstone when they heard of KL's fall and Aerys's death. They could have simply sent to Starfall to send people to look after Lyanna while they went on a ship to Dragonstone in that scenario. Regular guards could have looked after Lyanna, while Viserys, by virtue of being king, was the highest priority.

[JonSnow4President]

I have to disagree. Viserys wasn't safe, as they had to flee Dragonstone after Dany's birth, and especially so given the fact that Robert wanted them both dead, even many years later when they were poor, homeless and in Essos. They were always in danger, and no true KG would have considered it their duty to leave Viserys without any KG protection whatsoever.

Agree with the last part.

However, the only person who tells us that Viserys and Dany were in danger pre-Rhaego-conception was Viserys, who comes across as remarkedly more delusional on reread than he did on my first read, which is definitely saying something.