Requires only that you continue to read this thread: Benjanungate II

[kuenjato]

I dunno, looking at the stuff she did under her other names makes me wonder is any of it was really a performance at all.

Edit: I mean we keep calling it performance/theater/hyperbole/whatever, but it wasn't. Looking through things it looks like she actually meant every word she said.

Oh, she feeds on it. Like any sadist.

Stanek is just crazy. After I poked fun at him on a thread on goodreads, he did some research and called my boss, claiming I was 'harassing' him. Luckily my boss is cool and we laughed about it together, even used "Stanek!" as a catch-phrase for bullshit drama.

[Gormenghast]

Did anyone consider all this was made on purpose?

It comes right after the whole Quinn affair, the Mamatas guy was always her supporter.

This might be just a fabrication to give her writing career some kind of better jumpstart, especially since she writes about this. She might have observed that even if it's bad publicity she could still use it at her advantage.

I mean, I'm not surprised if this is a plot, and she's not the victim. I respect her enough to think she's smart enough for that kind of thing.

[peterbound]

Oh, she feeds on it. Like any sadist.

Stanek is just crazy. After I poked fun at him on a thread on goodreads, he did some research and called my boss, claiming I was 'harassing' him. Luckily my boss is cool and we laughed about it together, even used "Stanek!" as a catch-phrase for bullshit drama.

What? You have to make a thread on that. I /need/ to know what happened.

We can call it: 'the day stanak tried to ruin my life'. This story needs to be told.

[kuenjato]

What? You have to make a thread on that. I /need/ to know what happened.

We can call it: 'the day stanak tried to ruin my life'. This story needs to be told.

I'm a little concerned that he still reads these boards, and I'd rather not put my boss out anymore. I can write it in full here, if you wish.

[MacPeach]

Gorm, if we're going to buy-in to conspiracy theories to explain her behavior, why stop at half measures? Penny = pound. Clearly her intent behind chosen targets was to clear the field, but rather than salting the earth, she decisively [derisively] was planting the subliminal seeds of what she deems is good [cause that's bad] and is genuine [cause that's wrong] and all so we may better receive her. They are posers! Now here is M[bee]e!

Please. You and a few others are giving her way too much credit. Personae. Artifice. Come on. She's really not that smart, and in folly measures no better than a fool. Even then, fools don't often mean it.

---

Myshkin, I felt I owed you something [even though you totally sidestepped my question, of which I neither expected or demanded answer] So, I put aside my distaste of the opening line and read Machine-Gods in its entirety, just now. Analyzing the narrative, she takes more than a few shots at Westerners and Western culture. Pigs snouts, vampiric, consumption, etc. There's a dubious part of me that's suggesting I may have wanted to see it, and anyone reading it now who is aware of all of this may not be able to see otherwise-- but I'm relatively certain it's there [but excepting the hypocrisy, of course, for the record-- I really don't care] The craft was... I'm not sure. Technically she didn't break any rules [daring or not, you decide] but her diction and grammatical assemblage really didn't work for me.

In the shadow of machine-gods I tell wayfarers of a time where my people was a nightmare the color of hemorrhage and glinting teeth.

---

Going deeper, BS certainly sees herself as apart, but how couldn't she-- and, quite lonely too. After reading it, I almost, almost, felt pity for her again. Perhaps I understand why she's so angry now, and hence why I don't believe in any of this fabricated personae BS.

It's going to be a really interesting drama to watch unfold, honestly. I suspect in the not too distant future there will be another pen name, some new writing, and she'll eventually be exposed again. Has anyone ever imagined a side-winding Ourobouros?

I just did, but I don't think I imagined it.

[Shryke]

want to break into the SFF field

more like the vitriolic persona is the artform. one wonders if she and stanek compare notes on persona management technique.

Indeed. It's why I find the argument about tone strange. It's not the tone really. I mean, the tone is part of the act, sure, but the content and the actions she took would be no more acceptable if she'd posted very politely.

The problem is her whole thing is just a schtick where she hates people and things for the amusement of her audience and to fill some crazy essentially need in her person. She had nothing worthwhile to say that was not an accidental side-effect of looking for another punching bag.

[peterbound]

I'm a little concerned that he still reads these boards, and I'd rather not put my boss out anymore. I can write it in full here, if you wish.

That sounds like something that needs to happen.

You can change the names to protect the innocent.

[kuenjato]

For peterbound and anyone else, as it's relevant to the thread..

The Stanek story

I first encountered Stanek in 1999, when I was a frequent visitor to the old Tad Williams board. A number of sock puppets suddenly appeared one day, talking about how Robert Jordan et al. were "OK" but this guy Robert Stanek was the REAL DEAL, with blurb snippets about characters engaged in adventures that I assume was based on his Ruin Mist world. There was some confusion--sock puppets & this sort of behavior were unknown around those parts--and I googled his name, coming up with nothing. After some sharp commentary from the regulars, RS fessed up, stating that he was conducting an experiment to drum up potential interest in his then-un(self)published series. We sternly told him that this was a bad way to generate readers, and he disappeared.

In the years to follow, RS did his thang we all know and sort-of chuckle about, and I randomly observed the various threads discussing his trolling on Westeros (from 2000 I've mostly lurked around these parts, though I sometimes post in lit or the politics thread). I believe I once wrote the above story in one of those threads.

Last year Stanek had one of his periodic spewings, targeting specifically mainstream authors & haters in general who badmouthed his books despite 100MILLIONCOPIESSOLD!!! etc. Here at Westeros there was a link posted to a nonsensical goodreads thread in which he was expounding his victim theme; I responded, essentially telling him that I remembered him from the TW days and that, after 14 years, he should really seek some sort of therapy. I should state that, philosophically, I'm the complete opposite of RS: I've been writing fiction steadily for 17 years now but haven't submitted anything yet, as I want my work as polished and complete as possible [readers who spend money should get the absolute best, not half-arsed attempt], and it's not complete if trilogies lay unfinished, etc. I suppose I found myself irritated by his shtick after so many years, perhaps prompting me to emerge from my general lurker/information consumer mode.

I had my occupation and place of residence listed on my profile--I work at a middle school as a teacher. The day after that post, I went in to discuss something or the other with my principal. He gave me a curious look and asked if I knew a 'Robert Stanek.' I started to laugh. Apparently, RS had taken offense to my kindly advice to sort his shit out and looked up the school, telephoned my boss, and angrily vented about how I was trying to destroy an author's career with unwarranted venom, ad nauseam.

Now, my boss is about the most ideal boss you can have, easily the coolest guy to work for, and he seemed more amused than anything else. I explained RS to him and asked if he wanted to see some evidence from the internet as to his shenanigans. My boss just hand-waved it but thought it funny enough that, whenever something stressful came up at the school, we'd say "Stanek!" to each other and laugh--a catch phrase for surprising, eye-rolling bullshit.

I contacted RS on goodreads and told him the above. He didn't respond, and deleted the thread soon after (he'd already deleted my illusion-shattering commentary about his TW tactics).

What really strikes me was that my boss didn't care enough to even peruse RS's reputation on the net. Sort of appropriate, really, given the lengths he goes to draw attention to himself.

[peterbound]

Geezus. I'm sorry that happened to you. Thank you for sharing that. That dude is a fucking looney tune.

I remember when he came to the board. I thought he was a troll, but based on that, he must have actually came here.

[kuenjato]

Geezus. I'm sorry that happened to you. Thank you for sharing that. That dude is a fucking looney tune.

I remember when he came to the board. I thought he was a troll, but based on that, he must have actually came here.

Eh, it's alright, it's a funny story (first time I've shared it, actually). It would've been a lot less funny if my boss wasn't cool, but, you know...

[peterbound]

I had someone threaten to call my Fire Chief during my probie year because I disagreed with them in a group on The Facebook.

Pissed me the fuck off.

[Darth Richard II]

Did anyone consider all this was made on purpose?

It comes right after the whole Quinn affair, the Mamatas guy was always her supporter.

This might be just a fabrication to give her writing career some kind of better jumpstart, especially since she writes about this. She might have observed that even if it's bad publicity she could still use it at her advantage.

I mean, I'm not surprised if this is a plot, and she's not the victim. <b>I respect her enough</b> to think she's smart enough for that kind of thing.

The fuck? First time I'v seen someone on this board publicly defend her.

I want to throw up.

[Darth Richard II]

Wow, I didn't know Stanek had been doing his thing since 1999, that's... I dunno. The world has gone insane.

[Crixus]

In all fairness, man, she said it just the once!

And I think you're missing her point - PB isn't privileged in the sense of coming from money or an upper class or even a dominant ethnic group, he's privileged (like me, actually!) in that he has far, far easier access to the levers of the western (and thus global) entertainment industry than, say, an aspiring Thai or Chinese SF writer.

Thanks for defending me while I was asleep, Richard! :)

This is exactly what I meant.

Re Wind up Girl, I had a very similar experience to SJD. I read the book and enjoyed it. When I chanced upon RH's review, it felt like a punch in the gut. I absolutely took her statements about Thailand as truth, since she said she was Thai herself. And that made me look at the book from a new perspective.

That's why I referenced Homeland in my last post. This season SPOILER AND SLIGHT DERAIL ALERT!!!!

is set in Pakistan, in the city where I live. Now, I understand it's a show, and there are creative and practical constraints. I didn't expect the settings to look exactly like I know they do. However, a few things cause irritation:

1. Portraying the entire city as a gigantic slum, when in fact it's rather pretty: green, clean and organized. They did exactly the same during earlier portrayals of Beirut (if anyone's visited it, you know it isn't just a muddy, grim slum). It's as though Asia=ugly dirty place.

2. The way they've used Urdu is beyond laughable; it's pitiful. Straight from Google translate, really. When someone's family gets killed, his neighbour says the Urdu equivalent of 'forgive me' as though she was responsible (because the term for 'I'm sorry' is similar to 'forgive me', whereas a different term is used for condolence). Again, I find it a bit hard to believe that a huge show with substantial funds at their disposal couldn't find a Pakistani American to help; after all, there are such few Pakis out there, amirite?

This made me empathize with all those films set in India/Africa/younameit. Again, I don't expect 100% accuracy; I do however expect a modicum of research and respect.

Re white people writing about POC: I agree with what someone up-thread said: it's a conundrum because if white people write only about white people/places, they are accused of not being inclusive. When they do, they are called out for appropriation. It's a difficult line to balance. Personally, if I feel the author has taken time to do proper research, I'd be willing to forgive mistakes or misrepresentations to a great degree.

Also, the tired old narrative of the great white man saving the pitiful third world is beyond dull and also, very offensive. I think Wind up Girl has shades of the same. I'd love to see/read something where the White Master isn't the cure for all evils, ranging from ignorance to superstition to religious extremism and beyond. In fact, I think there is still a tendency for white writers to either write in a white protagonist, or to approach the culture from a clearly foreign aspect (that's where accusations of exoticism come in).

It's when you get that smug, agenda-driven presentation ala Homeland that you find it offensive and vomit-worthy, if we're being honest.

[kuenjato]

Wow, I didn't know Stanek had been doing his thing since 1999, that's... I dunno. The world has gone insane.

It was 1999, because that was the year I hung out on that board. I switched to Westeros in 2000, mostly due to the political threads (which were just as contentious and illuminating as they are now, particularly after the election of 2000).

Stanek stood out in my memory because I was still relatively new to the internet and had never experienced sock puppetry before. Given how clumsy he was--admitting to his game--it must have been his first or one of his first attempts to manipulate popular opinion (as I said, he admitted he was conducting an 'experiment'). Reflecting on it, it feels like I witnessed a little piece of bizarro internet history.

Back to the topic: the Bear link is interesting as it shows the lines in the sand being drawn deeper and deeper. I wonder if RH will ditch the twee Bee profile given the increasing heat.

[peterbound]

The fuck? First time I'v seen someone on this board publicly defend her.

I want to throw up.

you must not have been around when here and Larry/DF were such good buddies. He was ever her campion. Sci pimped her out on occasion as well.

[peterbound]

Thanks for defending me while I was asleep, Richard! :)

This is exactly what I meant.

Re Wind up Girl, I had a very similar experience to SJD. I read the book and enjoyed it. When I chanced upon RH's review, it felt like a punch in the gut. I absolutely took her statements about Thailand as truth, since she said she was Thai herself. And that made me look at the book from a new perspective.

That's why I referenced Homeland in my last post. This season SPOILER AND SLIGHT DERAIL ALERT!!!!

is set in Pakistan, in the city where I live. Now, I understand it's a show, and there are creative and practical constraints. I didn't expect the settings to look exactly like I know they do. However, a few things cause irritation:

1. Portraying the entire city as a gigantic slum, when in fact it's rather pretty: green, clean and organized. They did exactly the same during earlier portrayals of Beirut (if anyone's visited it, you know it isn't just a muddy, grim slum). It's as though Asia=ugly dirty place.

2. The way they've used Urdu is beyond laughable; it's pitiful. Straight from Google translate, really. When someone's family gets killed, his neighbour says the Urdu equivalent of 'forgive me' as though she was responsible (because the term for 'I'm sorry' is similar to 'forgive me', whereas a different term is used for condolence). Again, I find it a bit hard to believe that a huge show with substantial funds at their disposal couldn't find a Pakistani American to help; after all, there are such few Pakis out there, amirite?

This made me empathize with all those films set in India/Africa/younameit. Again, I don't expect 100% accuracy; I do however expect a modicum of research and respect.

Re white people writing about POC: I agree with what someone up-thread said: it's a conundrum because if white people write only about white people/places, they are accused of not being inclusive. When they do, they are called out for appropriation. It's a difficult line to balance. Personally, if I feel the author has taken time to do proper research, I'd be willing to forgive mistakes or misrepresentations to a great degree.

Also, the tired old narrative of the great white man saving the pitiful third world is beyond dull and also, very offensive. I think Wind up Girl has shades of the same. I'd love to see/read something where the White Master isn't the cure for all evils, ranging from ignorance to superstition to religious extremism and beyond. In fact, I think there is still a tendency for white writers to either write in a white protagonist, or to approach the culture from a clearly foreign aspect (that's where accusations of exoticism come in).

It's when you get that smug, agenda-driven presentation ala Homeland that you find it offensive and vomit-worthy, if we're being honest.

Do you think the pakistani entertainment industry correctly translates every 'american' term, or nuance?

Shit like that happens in the entertainment industry. Getting pissed about that kind of shit is ridiculous.

Also, I take from this that a white writer (or privileged) is damned if he/she does and damned if he/she doesn't. By writing what they know (something writers are told to do) they are accused of only writing about privileged experience and the great white savior. If they try and branch out, and write with another type of protagonist or setting, they are called racists and bigots. And who are they to argue? They don't own the culture, you do, so even if they are spot on about some shit, but you don't like it, you can still call them a dick.

Win win for the hater, lose lose for the author. I can see why people don't branch out.

[Darth Richard II]

Yeah. Well. I like to believe they were unaware of all the things going on outside of said blog at the time. Saying you respect her now is, to me, just inexcusable.

[Crixus]

Do you think the pakistani entertainment industry correctly translates every 'american' term, or nuance?

Shit like that happens in the entertainment industry. Getting pissed about that kind of shit is ridiculous.

Also, I take from this that a white writer (or privileged) is damned if he/she does and damned if he/she doesn't. By writing what they know (something writers are told to do) they are accused of only writing about privileged experience and the great white savior. If they try and branch out, and write with another type of protagonist or setting, they are called racists and bigots. And who are they to argue? They don't own the culture, you do, so even if they are spot on about some shit, but you don't like it, you can still call them a dick.

Win win for the hater, lose lose for the author. I can see why people don't branch out.

Look, it seems I've offended you in some manner. I was merely having a discussion.

There's a big difference between Pakistani entertainment, which has abysmal standards and a tiny audience (and even locally, is usually derided as being poor quality and ridiculous) and Hollywood. The entire world watches the latter, forms opinions based on the latter, etc. So comparing the two doesn't really seem fair, in my view. Especially when you consider the fact that Hollywood is far more educated, evolved and resourceful. I would expect more there.

You think getting pissed at something of that nature is 'ridiculous'. Fair enough. I don't agree.

I also tried to qualify my opinion about white authors writing on other cultures, a point you seem to have ignored. I stated that proper research, in my view, goes a long way in eliminating lazy bias. Unlike RH, I don't have an agenda against any author either, so there would be no reason to call them a 'dick' if I felt they'd worked hard to represent my culture fairly, warts and all.

I don't see why you took that to mean 'damned if they do/don't'.

[peterbound]

Hmm. I'm not mad. This is just how I communicate

You give Hollywood a lot more credit than it deserves. They can't even get local, American accents right, much less this of a foreign nation.

And no amount of research is going to make it ok for a white/privileged author to tell a story about another's culture. You feel too connected to it, and he could never get it truly correct.

Like I said. I can see why they don't branch out.