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BoldGhost

Talking about Jon again

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I posted this on Reddit, but I know there a lot of people who are not on both sites, so I wanted to post this here as well, to hopefully stimulate another provoking discussion on Jon and what his fate might be.



I know there have been tons of posts about Jon and his fate. I am sure whichever side we fall on, we all are ready to read what actually happens.



I have looked through many of the Jon threads and read many of the discussions leaning both ways. But I want to bring a specific piece of evidence to the table that I have not seen anyone discuss yet, and it's why I think he is alive in some form (whether it be resurrected, healed before death, or warged through Ghost).



George RR Martin writes his chapters as strict third person intimate, never breaking the chain of information from a characters perspective except one small paragraph (discussed in a thread found here: http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1t8uer/spoilers_all_the_case_of_victarion_and_the/). He has discussed this at length, even going as far as making some characters memories or chapters unreliable (Sansa). What I am getting at are the last words of the Jon chapter in which he is stabbed. We all know Martin chooses his words wisely and the last words in the chapter are (after being stabbed 3 times, once in the gut, once in the shoulder, and once grazing his neck) "He never felt the fourth." But wait, Martin writes from a POV perspective. Is he telling us that Jon is alive and knows he was stabbed 4 times, but he didn't know at the time of the incident, since he only felt the 3? I struggle to find another time where Martin has explicitly stated something that the character in the POV chapter didn't see of know.



Here is an interview where he admits using unreliable narrators as well as discusses Jon Snow a bit without giving anything away.


http://shelf-life.ew.com/2011/07/21/dance-with-dragons-shocking-twist-g/[1]



Lets have a civil, thought provoking conversation on this. Am I looking into it too much? Do you think those last words hold any weight, barring any other factors in the chapter. What about if you combine those words with other foreshadowing, or evidence?


Let's discuss!


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I have read many threads about Jon's fate and while there are convincing points on both sides i tend to believe he has not died or will be resurrected. My only real reason is strictly based on the R&L = J theory. To kill him would a terrible waste of a truly wonderfully conceived mystery.



I could also say that maybe he warged into Ghost. That could also explain the last sentence.


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I have read many threads about Jon's fate and while there are convincing points on both sides i tend to believe he has not died or will be resurrected. My only real reason is strictly based on the R&L = J theory. To kill him would a terrible waste of a truly wonderfully conceived mystery.

I could also say that maybe he warged into Ghost. That could also explain the last sentence.

I personally agree with you, but I am not enclosed in my opinion. Obviously we must hear from Mr. Martin to truely know, but I also think R+L=J is true and agree it would be a waste (although wouldn't be surprised if he dies and then we find out it's true, just to tear our hearts out). It's very evident I'm sure that I'm a big Jon fan, he's one of the characters I relate with most.

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Wow! Never thought of that before! Good catch!

Still processing that bit of info...

Thank you! I summarized, the actual end says "He never felt the fourth, only the cold." So I think that it might even strengthen my argument UNLESS death is what is meant by "the cold". Then it's pretty obvious that I'm wrong lol

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I posted this on Reddit, but I know there a lot of people who are not on both sites, so I wanted to post this here as well, to hopefully stimulate another provoking discussion on Jon and what his fate might be.

I know there have been tons of posts about Jon and his fate. I am sure whichever side we fall on, we all are ready to read what actually happens.

I have looked through many of the Jon threads and read many of the discussions leaning both ways. But I want to bring a specific piece of evidence to the table that I have not seen anyone discuss yet, and it's why I think he is alive in some form (whether it be resurrected, healed before death, or warged through Ghost).

George RR Martin writes his chapters as strict POV. He has discussed this at length, even going as far as making some characters memories or chapters unreliable (Sansa). What I am getting at are the last words of the Jon chapter in which he is stabbed. We all know Martin chooses his words wisely and the last words in the chapter are (after being stabbed 3 times, once in the gut, once in the shoulder, and once grazing his neck) "He never felt the fourth." But wait, Martin writes from a POV perspective. Is he telling us that Jon is alive and knows he was stabbed 4 times, but he didn't know at the time of the incident, since he only felt the 3? I struggle to find another time where Martin has explicitly stated something that the character in the POV chapter didn't see of know.

What Martin does is to write from a "third-person intimate", but at least once he has used the "third-person omniscient". I think it was in a Victarion chapter.

But, yeah, you could be right.

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What Martin does is to write from a "third-person intimate", but at least once he has used the "third-person omniscient". I think it was in a Victarion chapter.

But, yeah, you could be right.

Yeah I know, I should probably edit the OP to say that. There's actually a whole thread on Reddit discussing that chapter and what the significance is of the one time he has changed the writing style. It's a pretty interesting read.

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Here is an interview where he admits using unreliable narrators as well as discusses Jon Snow a bit without giving anything away.

http://shelf-life.ew.com/2011/07/21/dance-with-dragons-shocking-twist-g/[1]

Thanks for posting this! This interview somehow give me some hope that he is alive. Plus GRR Martin brings up Melissandre and the fact that Mance was supposed to be dead but wasn't. As to the last sentence of the chapter I'm hoping that :"He never felt the fourth." means that someone intervenes. Perhaps Ghost that he is trying to summon or Melissandre because of her visions or some sympathetic wildlings or NW members. Please anyone...?

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ADwD, Chapter 69, Jon XIII

...A horn, I need a horn. He saw the glint of steel, turned toward it. “No blades!” he screamed. “Wick, put that knife …”
away, he meant to say. When Wick Whittlestick slashed at his throat, the word turned into a grunt. Jon twisted from the knife, just enough so it barely grazed his skin. He cut me. When he put his hand to the side of his neck, blood welled between his fingers. “Why?”
“For the Watch.” Wick slashed at him again. This time Jon caught his wrist and bent his arm back until he dropped the dagger. The gangling steward backed away, his hands upraised as if to say, Not me, it was not me. Men were screaming. Jon reached for Longclaw, but his fingers had grown stiff and clumsy. Somehow he could not seem to get the sword free of its scabbard.

Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. “For the Watch.” He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it.
Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger’s hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. “Ghost,” he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …

Azor Ahai Prophecy #1

There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him.

Azor Ahai Prophecy #2

When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone.

My opinion

  • Someone sabotaged his scabbard where he couldn't pull Longclaw quickly
  • He was wearing chain-mail beneath his layers (just an opinion of mine)
  • The knives only partially broke through the chain-mail causing them to get tangled up but still cut Jon, and due to the intense cold, the heat from Jon's blood is causing the wounds to steam (smoke)
  • Melisandre warned Jon to keep Ghost close, and after his speech to his men about riding south to attack Ramsay, he noticed Melisandre was gone (my guess is she went to let Ghost out)
  • Bowen Marsh had tears running down his cheeks, Tears are salty
  • His last word was Ghost (not his last thought)
  • The reason he never felt the fourth knife but knows there were four is because he reached for Ghost and reached him, he successfully warged into Ghost and sees the fourth
  • As Ghost, he attacks
  • Also the use of '...'.
    • Most uses of '...' are as a pause in a sentence, not the end of the sentence
    • Example in the quote above
  • Jon also trains against three foes earlier in the book, therefore he should be able to defend himself better than he did (or one would assume)
  • 'wake dragons out of stone'
    • ​I think this refers to a metaphorical dragon, the stone will be Lyanna's tomb in Winterfell
    • By the time Jon arrives in Winterfell, the place will be abandoned, he realizes it is exactly as he sees it in his dreams
    • He goes in to the Crypts, just as his dream demands
    • Something encourages him (Bran) to break into Lyanna's tomb where he finds Rhaegar's harp, Rhaegar's protection (marriage) cloak he put around Lyanna, and bones
    • The hooded man (remember him?) steps out from the darkness and says "I have been expecting you, your grace."
      • Which may be in Jon's last chapter of TWoW and we are left to assume that the hooded man is Howland Reed and he will explain it all to Jon

In my opinion, this scenario flows with the way GRRM has written Jon thus far. But I know this is only my opinion and it will not suite all.

ETA

I also believe that Jon only sustained minor injuries during this attack or injuries not deemed major...if that makes sense.

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Jon Snow is not dead. One of the big mysteries of the book is who is his mother (or who are his parents). That question becomes moot if he is dead. Thus he is not dead!!!


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Jon Snow is not dead. One of the big mysteries of the book is who is his mother (or who are his parents). That question becomes moot if he is dead. Thus he is not dead!!!

I don't see that as evidence for Jon not being dead. Probably he isn't, but that's not because we have to solve his parentage, that can also be solved without Jon being alive.

However, of course, it would be really dissapointing if Jon dies.

This theory is really interesting, especially since GRRM has stated that his characters are unreliable. Or he is breaking with his writing in the rest of the chapter, but this doesn't seem really reasonable to me.

Oh, I can't wait for the Winds of Winter!

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  • "His last word was Ghost (not his last thought)

The reason he never felt the fourth knife but knows there were four is because he reached for Ghost and reached him, he successfully warged into Ghost and sees the fourth

As Ghost, he attacks"

I too do not believe he is dead and I really like this idea. What I think could have occured is he warged into Ghost like you said before he passes out from lack of blood, thats when he sees the fourth knife and attacks as Ghost. Then Ghost flees. Rememebr that they are at the Wall and the cold helps preserve life. Even Maester Aemon alludes to this while he is on his way to Old Town. "The Cold preserves and Fire consumes".

When Jon says he only felt the cold could be that they put him in an ice cell atop of the wall and thats why he states he felt "only the cold...." They could be waiting to execute him via beheading as things stablize at Castle Black. I'm sure this event lead to craziness unfolding in the aftermath. This is when Mel will suggest to do the beheading at the Weirwood tree where he took his vows (leading to him being released from his nights watch vows?) because Jon worshipped the Old Gods.Things seem to come full circle in GRRM's world. I think this will also lead to Bloodraven/Bran doing something. These POV will most likely come from Mel imo.

Alas, rememebr Maester Aemon tells Jon “Kill the boy, Jon Snow. Winter is almost upon us. Kill the boy and let the man be born.” I think it is safe to say how very important this quote is and how much Maester Aemon has had an influence in shaping Jon Snow Stark Targaryen. :drool:

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I originally thought that Jon never felt the fourth stab, but saw it. But that isn't likely because he is face down in the snow. So yeah, the only way I can square this circle is if Martin is changing the narrative voice, or Jon saw it through Ghost. Considering he said "Ghost" the same way Robb said "Grey Wind" just before he went out, and the way Bran saw the 3EC as he was wasting away in a coma, I am assuming that as death approaches the third eye opens and you can warg your beast.



But that only leaves me with more questions. Is this option available only to the Stark children, or could a certain Lord Stark have warged into something just as the blade was coming down? Perhaps a certain dog that managed to make its way into the Red Keep in time to give a certain boy king who ordered his execution a final, condescending sniff?



And does the process work in reverse? Does Sansa have a Lady lurking around her subconscious, which may account for her faulty memory regarding her final parting with the Hound in King's Landing.



These and other questions will be answered next week if you tune in to the continuing saga of As the World of Ice and Fire Turns.


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ADwD, Chapter 69, Jon XIII

Azor Ahai Prophecy #1

Azor Ahai Prophecy #2

My opinion

  • Someone sabotaged his scabbard where he couldn't pull Longclaw quickly

  • He was wearing chain-mail beneath his layers (just an opinion of mine)

The knives only partially broke through the chain-mail causing them to get tangled up but still cut Jon, and due to the intense cold, the heat from Jon's blood is causing the wounds to steam (smoke)

Melisandre warned Jon to keep Ghost close, and after his speech to his men about riding south to attack Ramsay, he noticed Melisandre was gone (my guess is she went to let Ghost out)

Bowen Marsh had tears running down his cheeks, Tears are salty

His last word was Ghost (not his last thought)

The reason he never felt the fourth knife but knows there were four is because he reached for Ghost and reached him, he successfully warged into Ghost and sees the fourth

As Ghost, he attacks

Also the use of '...'.

  • Most uses of '...' are as a pause in a sentence, not the end of the sentence

Example in the quote above

Jon also trains against three foes earlier in the book, therefore he should be able to defend himself better than he did (or one would assume)

'wake dragons out of stone'

  • ​I think this refers to a metaphorical dragon, the stone will be Lyanna's tomb in Winterfell

By the time Jon arrives in Winterfell, the place will be abandoned, he realizes it is exactly as he sees it in his dreams

He goes in to the Crypts, just as his dream demands

Something encourages him (Bran) to break into Lyanna's tomb where he finds Rhaegar's harp, Rhaegar's protection (marriage) cloak he put around Lyanna, and bones

The hooded man (remember him?) steps out from the darkness and says "I have been expecting you, your grace."

  • Which may be in Jon's last chapter of TWoW and we are left to assume that the hooded man is Howland Reed and he will explain it all to Jon

In my opinion, this scenario flows with the way GRRM has written Jon thus far. But I know this is only my opinion and it will not suite all.

ETA

I also believe that Jon only sustained minor injuries during this attack or injuries not deemed major...if that makes sense.

Sorry it has been so long since I've been here but....

Great opinion, thanks for sharing! Also, great formatting, I must do better next time. I've pushed this theory around to some of my friends who are active re-readers and aren't active on forums and many people think all of these points (mine and yours) are good catches so here's to hoping we are right!

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I dont really think it is a stretch to think his story will continue... I think most think he will warg are be revived with magic... but we also think that this is going to change who he is... the loyal character who stands by his word that we all love.



I dont think that jon Snow as he exists now is going to survive. There are not very many heroes at the wall right now.




I have even gone as far as to think that he will become evil... that because of his Stark blood he is going to be some kind of 'King of Winter" that has a forgotten history and is not just an 'empty' title.


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