Fates of Targaryen queens and mothers

[Lord Varys]

Alicent would have been imprisoned after Corlys and his co-conspirators had gotten rid of Aegon II and crowned Aegon III. If you read the book you realize that this occurred before the arrival of Cregan Stark. It is a pity that we really don't know who was truly involved in the poisoning plot, but there is no chance that those people actually allowed Alicent to remain free after they had just murdered her last son. That would have been ... unwise, I imagine.

The time line goes like that:

1. The Riverlords arrive at the walls of KL, possibly already beginning a siege. Aegon II has neither the numbers nor the strength/supplies to defy the Black loyalists, especially not after Cregan adds his strength to the Lads (not to mention that the Northmen would suicidally attack both the gates and the walls to get their glorious deaths in battle). When Aegon II fails to yield, his council men get rid of him.

2. Corlys crowns Aegon III, gets the Riverlords into the city, and offers terms to the remaining Greens. Only then Cregan Stark arrives.

3. The court and Lord Cregan wait for answers from the Hightowers, Lannisters, and Baratheons. After it is positive, Cregan becomes Hand, and deals with the traitors.

[glamourweaver]

I'm surprised they didn't make her a Silent-Sister. I've generally got the impression that's the female alternative to Taking-the-Black. I suppose she may have been a hostage to assure the loyalty of the Reach to the largely former-Black Regency.

[Jaak]

Alicent would have been imprisoned after Corlys and his co-conspirators

Coconspirators in what?

had gotten rid of Aegon II and crowned Aegon III.

After, or before?

If you read the book you realize that this occurred before the arrival of Cregan Stark. It is a pity that we really don't know who was truly involved in the poisoning plot, but there is no chance that those people actually allowed Alicent to remain free after they had just murdered her last son. That would have been ... unwise, I imagine.

Did Cregan know who was truly involved? Did Alicent?

Did anyone know who had killed Maegor the Cruel?

Were the people who were truly involved in the poisoning plot in any position to not allow Alicent to remain free?

The time line goes like that:

1. The Riverlords arrive at the walls of KL, possibly already beginning a siege. Aegon II has neither the numbers nor the strength/supplies to defy the Black loyalists, especially not after Cregan adds his strength to the Lads (not to mention that the Northmen would suicidally attack both the gates and the walls to get their glorious deaths in battle). When Aegon II fails to yield, his council men get rid of him.

Again, was it his council men?

There were obvious alternatives to taking the black. Accept that the city was lost again for a while, pack up his council, family and hostages (except Aegon´s ear) and flee, whether for Dragonstone, Storm´s End, Oldtown or Casterly Rock. This would have dragged out the war a lot (the Riverlords would have needed a lot of time to fight their way to any of these places) and also allowed for negotiating from a position of strength.

Obvious and viable, but perhaps not to the taste of all the Greens.

Was the poison plot a work of council men (who would likely have places on a ship to Dragonstone) or humbler servants (who might be left behind with Aegon´s ear)?

[Moondancer]

Jaak,

Murder of Aegon II. ("Conspirators in what?")

[SeanF]

Still not as bad as she deserved.

It would depend where she was locked up. Comfortable house arrest would be one thing. Years of confinement to the Black Cells would be another.

But, the loss of all her children and grandchildren would be a terrible burden for any mother. I shed no tears for Aegon II or Aemond, but the fate of Helaena and her children was terrible.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

Her name is Shaera not Saera.

[KingBlackfyre]

I don't understand this outright hatred for the greens as a whole as opposed to the blacks they were just as bad. Daemon was an asshole and imagine if rheaynra took the throne he would be the power in the realm and there is a good chance some of the hightowers would have been executed. The laws of the andals and everybody support a son over a daughter and Alicent just did what anybody would do and as done countless time in history a mother supporting her children over others for inheritance. Luke put out Aemond's eye so while killing him was wrong it wasn't without a reason. The greens and blacks were equally bad and Rheaynra was just as bad a ruler as Aegon in fact worse as she ruled had the chance to consolidate her rule and through her paranoia ended her own reign.

[Jaak]

Her name is Shaera not Saera.

So, Shaera... What became of her?

[Mrs.Grumpy]

So, Shaera... What became of her?

Perished at the tragedy of Summerhall? Dunno.

[Winterfell is Burning]

I don't understand this outright hatred for the greens as a whole as opposed to the blacks they were just as bad. Daemon was an asshole and imagine if rheaynra took the throne he would be the power in the realm and there is a good chance some of the hightowers would have been executed. The laws of the andals and everybody support a son over a daughter and Alicent just did what anybody would do and as done countless time in history a mother supporting her children over others for inheritance. Luke put out Aemond's eye so while killing him was wrong it wasn't without a reason. The greens and blacks were equally bad and Rheaynra was just as bad a ruler as Aegon in fact worse as she ruled had the chance to consolidate her rule and through her paranoia ended her own reign.

Yeah, I agree. A lot of people side with Rhaenyra automatically because she was a woman, but there's absolutely no reason to say her side was not at least equally as bad as the other.

[Colonel Green]

Perished at the tragedy of Summerhall? Dunno.

She was still alive in the reign of Jaehaerys, per the section on his reign, but she's not mentioned further.

Yeah, I agree. A lot of people side with Rhaenyra automatically because she was a woman, but there's absolutely no reason to say her side was not at least equally as bad as the other.

I don't agree there. The greens are the ones who actually started the war, and they did so on quite hypocritical grounds. Rhaenyra hardly distinguished herself in the conflict, but she didn't start it, and it's not especially surprising that she became paranoid given the degree to which the greens had betrayed her father's succession law.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

I don't understand this outright hatred for the greens as a whole as opposed to the blacks they were just as bad. Daemon was an asshole and imagine if rheaynra took the throne he would be the power in the realm and there is a good chance some of the hightowers would have been executed. The laws of the andals and everybody support a son over a daughter and Alicent just did what anybody would do and as done countless time in history a mother supporting her children over others for inheritance. Luke put out Aemond's eye so while killing him was wrong it wasn't without a reason. The greens and blacks were equally bad and Rheaynra was just as bad a ruler as Aegon in fact worse as she ruled had the chance to consolidate her rule and through her paranoia ended her own reign.

There is no character I hate more in the whole of ASOIAF than Alicent Hightower. Every time her name appears on the page, I always think "b*tch."

The Greens started the Dance, and how. There was a way to depose Rhaenyra, but the way they went about stealing that throne was sneaky and underhanded.

Daemon and Rhaenyra were definitely dark gray characters themselves. But the Hightowers and their allies were all kinds of wrong.

Just glad that although Rhaenyra lost the battle (and her life), the Blacks won the war, and all the later Targs came from their lineage, not Aegon II.

[Jaak]

She was still alive in the reign of Jaehaerys, per the section on his reign, but she's not mentioned further.

And should have been relevant. In 262, when Jaehaerys, never in robust health, died in age 37, he should have left a 36 year old widow, not expressly mentioned to have been unhealthy, and 18 year old son. (and daughter Rhaella).

Shaera should have been a relevant figure in Aerys II-s court. Consider that Aegon II was 22, and Alicent was still relevant... or Olenna, the girl who did wed Luthor Tyrell whom Shaera should have married.

Sure, her little boy was the King now. But Shaera was not even a girl to stay in kitchen and sept and do as the authority figures around her told her, as Helaena or perhaps Naerys might. 14 year old Shaera had defied her King father to run away with her brother. Was 36 year old Shaera going to obey her little boy just because he was the King now? OK, he WAS her little boy. But Rhaella was her child, too. When her children quarrelled, as they were expressly mentioned to do, couldn´t Shaera as their mother feel the authority to express her opinion about the matter at hand, even in Aerys´ face?

[KingBlackfyre]

There is no character I hate more in the whole of ASOIAF than Alicent Hightower. Every time her name appears on the page, I always think "b*tch."

The Greens started the Dance, and how. There was a way to depose Rhaenyra, but the way they went about stealing that throne was sneaky and underhanded.

Daemon and Rhaenyra were definitely dark gray characters themselves. But the Hightowers and their allies were all kinds of wrong.

Just glad that although Rhaenyra lost the battle (and her life), the Blacks won the war, and all the later Targs came from their lineage, not Aegon II.

Why she was supporting her own kids nothing more how else was going to claim the throne for her kids except from subterfuge. Look at it from her perspective her biggest rival and the man who is her fathers biggest rival are about to ascend to the throne of the seven kingdoms plus their heir is a bastard their is no guarantee that they will not execute her children like they did the velaryon nephews of corlys while I'm not condoning her actions she barely had another choice plus blood and cheese was one of the worst actions of the entire war and entirely unwarrented

[Colonel Green]

Why she was supporting her own kids nothing more how else was going to claim the throne for her kids except from subterfuge. Look at it from her perspective her biggest rival and the man who is her fathers biggest rival are about to ascend to the throne of the seven kingdoms plus their heir is a bastard their is no guarantee that they will not execute her children like they did the velaryon nephews of corlys while I'm not condoning her actions she barely had another choice plus blood and cheese was one of the worst actions of the entire war and entirely unwarrented

Rhaenyra and Alicent were rivals because Alicent's faction was blatantly pushing to have Rhaenyra unseated as heir to the throne. Why would Rhaenyra be well-disposed toward them with that being the case?

But I don't see any reason to believe that they were in any kind of physical danger. They had their own dragons, and powerful ones at that. There would have been a loss of influence at court, no doubt, but that's not justification for instigating a civil war.

[KingBlackfyre]

Rhaenyra and Alicent were rivals because Alicent's faction was blatantly pushing to have Rhaenyra unseated as heir to the throne. Why would Rhaenyra be well-disposed toward them with that being the case?

But I don't see any reason to believe that they were in any kind of physical danger. They had their own dragons, and powerful ones at that. There would have been a loss of influence at court, no doubt, but that's not justification for instigating a civil war.

Why did daemon kill the velaryon kill the man who accused the strong os bastedry as long as viserys sons were alive they would never stay on the throne for long they had to die or be sent away for rhaeynra throne to be secure in addition to the fact that inheritance law clearly says a son comes

Before a daughter so they had the law on their side. That leads to a question what takes preminance the law or a kings word and the dance established in terms of inheritance the law does

[Colonel Green]

Why did daemon kill the velaryon kill the man who accused the strong os bastedry as long as viserys sons were alive they would never stay on the throne for long they had to die or be sent away for rhaeynra throne to be secure

Um, as you say, Daemon killed that guy for accusing the kids of being bastards. All Alicent and co. had to do, as I said, was not make designs on the throne and promote the bastardy accusations. The coup is not an isolated incident; it's the culmination of decades of behaviour, all ascribed to the same motivation, the desire to unseat Rhaenyra and make her son king, against the wishes of King Viserys.

in addition to the fact that inheritance law clearly says a son comes Before a daughter so they had the law on their side. That leads to a question what takes preminance the law or a kings word and the dance established in terms of inheritance the law does

No, they didn't have the law on their side, because Westeros is an absolute monarchy where there is no temporal law distinct from the king's word.

[KingBlackfyre]

There is a law in westeros the heir is always the eldest born son there is a reason why Randall had to send Sam rather to name dickon heir. Viserys was going against millennia of tradition to name rhaeynra heir ( even in modern times the uk only changed this rule a year ago). Aegon should have been king per the laws and traditions of westeros to go against that without the full support of your lords ie a grand council invites instability which happened in the dance.

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

There is a law in westeros the heir is always the eldest born son there is a reason why Randall had to send Sam rather to name dickon heir. Viserys was going against millennia of tradition to name rhaeynra heir ( even in modern times the uk only changed this rule a year ago). Aegon should have been king per the laws and traditions of westeros to go against that without the full support of your lords ie a grand council invites instability which happened in the dance.

The law is nowhere near as powerful as you're making it out to be. First off, Viserys would've never been king by strict laws of succession. His cousin Rhaenys would've been before him as the daughter of Jaehaerys's eldest son. And even then, Jaehaerys would never have been king by the same token, as his older brother had children (who as far as we know were still living when he was declared king). Viserys was named heir by Jaehaerys and that's where his claim came from. It seems quite clear that he had the right to designate his own heir, by that precedent (and it should be noted that the lords of the realm were perfectly fine with putting aside their own "laws" of succession to favor Viserys over Rhaenys or her son Laenor, as Viserys was overwhelmingly supporting at the Great Council of 101AC, which led to Jaehaerys designating him as heir)

[SeanF]

I don't understand this outright hatred for the greens as a whole as opposed to the blacks they were just as bad. Daemon was an asshole and imagine if rheaynra took the throne he would be the power in the realm and there is a good chance some of the hightowers would have been executed. The laws of the andals and everybody support a son over a daughter and Alicent just did what anybody would do and as done countless time in history a mother supporting her children over others for inheritance. Luke put out Aemond's eye so while killing him was wrong it wasn't without a reason. The greens and blacks were equally bad and Rheaynra was just as bad a ruler as Aegon in fact worse as she ruled had the chance to consolidate her rule and through her paranoia ended her own reign.

It's true that both sides carried out some pretty revolting atrocities in this civil war. Prince Daemon, Queen Alicent, Aegon II, Prince Aemond, were all equally bad people, IMHO. What was done to Queen Helaena and her children was dreadful.

Rhaenyra was a disastrous ruler, yet I do have some sympathy for her. After having been the "Realm's Delight" as a girl, she had to endure years of vilification as a whore and traitor, from Queen Alicent and her supporters, who then moved to seize her throne, while she was enduring a still-birth. Then her son was treacherously murdered at Storms Landing, causing her to collapse. After losing everything, she died bravely, while her son was forced to watch.