Rhoynar's Return to Mother Rhoyne

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Blondness? The Yyronwoods are a proud First Men House, and the Martells were an Andal House before Nymeria. So that part is just false.

I'm not a fan of aristocracy period, and that's not what I'm talking about, but you do realize that the line of William the Conquerer no longer rules the United Kingdom, right? So your point holds no validity.

As for the Maori… What the hell? Western anthropology postulates that the Maori originated in Eastern Polynesia, but the Maori don't have a cultural history consisting of an exodus from the homeland (Tahiti? No). The Rhoynar absolutely do. The Maori were also the first to arrive in New Zealand. The Rhoynar were absolutely not the first to arrive in Dorne.

So nice try, trying to bring in real world "examples" that hold no relevance.

That's silly, every English king since 1066 has claimed descent from William I and a few generations later from The Saxon kings of England and Wessex again. The queen wouldn't be queen if she wasn't descended from WIlliam.

[King Blackwood]

Last I checked, the Windsors are descended from William the Conqueror.They are also of German descent, and much of the English aristocracy is descended from Norman barons.

The Rhoynish have lived in Dorne for centuries. Why would the Dornish lords want to leave where they are already wealthy and powerful? Why would the Martells leave where they are already Princes? There is likely not anyone who is purely Rhoynish in Dorne, but rather mixed with Andal and First Men blood as well.

That is not without mentioning that trying to reclaim the Rhoyne would bring them into conflict with the Free Cities who currently control the Rhoyne: Volantis, Norvos, Qohor, and Pentos. Even if all of Dorne went, they would lack the resources and military strength to fight all four of the Free Cities coming from all four directions in a foreign land they don't know very.

That's silly, every English king since 1066 has claimed descent from William I and a few generations later from The Saxon kings of England and Wessex again. The queen wouldn't be queen if she wasn't descended from WIlliam.

I'm not talking about aristocracy, I'm talking about an entire nation.

Volantis controls the Rhoyne much of the Rhoyne, yes. The other three don't though. The Rhoynar might come into conflict with Volantis though, that is a possibility.

Yes, Blondness. Anders Yronwood is blond.

My examples were more tongue-in-cheek than anything, but I do dispute the notion that they have NO validity. The largely French descended aristocracy of England consider themselves to be English the same way the largely Rhoynar descended aristocracy of Dorne is "Dornish", not "Rhoynar", not "Salty" or "Stoney", "Dornish". Dornish culture is an amalgamation of Rhoynish, Andal, and First Men traditions, not simply the transplantation of Rhoynish culture that certain houses were completely excluded from. The Orphan's of the Greenblood are an exception. And they're considered odd ducks, even on the Broken Arm.

The Yronwoods, the Wyls, and the Blackmonts, and the other "Stoney" houses might have some pride in being ethnically distinct from the rest of Dorne, they might resent the Martells for their dominance but, when push comes to shove, they are Dornish first and Andals second. Daeron's conquest should be more than enough proof of that.

And this "Dorne first" mentality extends even to the Martells. Consider the way Doran and Arianne talk about their duty to Dorne, rather than their duty to their house or family. You never hear Tywin Lannister talk about his duty to the westerlands.

Your point is valid either way, but I'd like to point out again that the Yronwoods and other Stoney Dornishmen are First Men. Also, Anders Yronwood has yet to appear in the series and I don't remember ever reading a description of him being blonde; I could be wrong, but either way he's a First Man not an Andal.

The Rhoynar were one of the greatest civilizations, and now they are a just one group within Dorne, which itself is a backwater in the Seven Kingdoms. Yes they have all interbred, but the Starks without a doubt have some Andal blood in them through intermarriage, yet they are still fiercely First Men. It seems to me that the Rhoynar have fallen very far from what they used to have. I'd like to see them rise again along Mother Rhoyne and return to their former glory. That's all I'm trying to say.

Wouldn't it be glorious for the heir of Nymeria to lead her people back to the place where they were most prosperous?

[Eat My Steel]

I would like them to return once the Volantines are smashed by Dany and her dragons.

[Chebyshov]

Nymeria burned her ships because her people had finally found a home, and I'd say they've prospered and flourished just fine where they are. Given everything we know about Dorne, it's the closest thing we have on Planetos to a Nation State...they're all Dornish first, then whatever lineage might matter to them second. This is evident from their history and the staunch Dornishness of the marcher lords.

I think it was only the Young Dragon who felt the need to draw arbitrary racial lines in Dorne. And he failed to mention the Orphans.

[King Blackwood]

I would like them to return once the Volantines are smashed by Dany and her dragons.

Thank your for agreeing! It's nice to find a likeminded person.

Nymeria burned her ships because her people had finally found a home, and I'd say they've prospered and flourished just fine where they are. Given everything we know about Dorne, it's the closest thing we have on Planetos to a Nation State...they're all Dornish first, then whatever lineage might matter to them second. This is evident from their history and the staunch Dornishness of the marcher lords.

I think it was only the Young Dragon who felt the need to draw arbitrary racial lines in Dorne. And he failed to mention the Orphans.

They had countless flourishing city-states along the Rhoyne. There is not a single city in Dorne, just deserts, castles, and shanty towns.

Daeron did not draw the lines, he just observed them.

[Chebyshov]

Nation state =/= city state. My point is that Dorne is culturally and politically "one." The Dornish are not fixated on pigmentation. They are Dornish first and foremost, and that's where their passions lie.

[King Blackwood]

Nation state =/= city state. My point is that Dorne is culturally and politically "one." The Dornish are not fixated on pigmentation. They are Dornish first and foremost, and that's where their passions lie.

I don't remember ever equating the two.

I disagree that Dorne is culturally and politically one. The Dornish of the Red Mountains have little to no Rhoynar blood and are culturally First Men that have assimilated some Andal traditions. The Yronwoods chafe under the Martells and have rebelled multiple times. So they are neither culturally, nor politically, "one."

[Gibzit]

Why would they? They have no reason to move from westeros.

[Chebyshov]

I don't remember ever equating the two.

I disagree that Dorne is culturally and politically one. The Dornish of the Red Mountains have little to no Rhoynar blood and are culturally First Men that have assimilated some Andal traditions. The Yronwoods chafe under the Martells and have rebelled multiple times. So they are neither culturally, nor politically, "one."

Sorry, that's why I thought you brought up the city state.

Anyway, in the Dornish Debates threads, we've theorized that the BFs put Dornish Independence (under Yronwood rule) on the table during the rebellions, so that the aims would still be centered around Dorne. Given their history, and the unity we've seen on display countless times, not to mention the absolutely steadfast marcher lords against all enemy threads, the Dornish Houses seem to value Dorne first. In the case of the the BF rebellions, the Martells viewed peace terms and being brought into the 7K though keeping their own laws as what was "best" for Dorne, whereas the Yronwoods likely wanted to see Dorne remain independent. That was never going to be an easy transition anyway.

But look at Dorne's treatment of the Targs...from Aegon to Daeron. Look at the Dornish unity under Doran now, and their Operation Distract Balon Swann. There's massive cooperation, and its all for the best interest of Dorne. I don't think you can say that because the Yronwoods are fairer, there's automatic discontent or "chafing" (yikes). We've only seen one instance of Dornish unity breaking down, and I don't think it's a coincidence that it coincided with the loss of Dornish autonomy.

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

Your point is valid either way, but I'd like to point out again that the Yronwoods and other Stoney Dornishmen are First Men. Also, Anders Yronwood has yet to appear in the series and I don't remember ever reading a description of him being blonde; I could be wrong, but either way he's a First Man not an Andal.

What makes Anders Yronwood particularly "First Men". Do you have some sort of comprehensive ancestry chart of him that shows he's got more First Men descent than Andal descent? Outside of the North, the aristocracy is very much both of Andal and First Men descent. Is House Yronwood culturally First Men? Do they keep to the old gods and not practice Andal traditions such as knighthood?

Or are you referring to the Yronwoods as First Men and distinctively not Andal because their house has been around since before the Andals came over? Because that's absolute nonsense. A lot of things have changed in the thousands of years since the Andals came over. The aristocracy south of the Neck was heavily Andalized both by "blood" and by culture (even if less so in Dorne than, say, the Vale). The idea that the Yronwoods are specifically First Men because the name has been along for a long time is silly, since it has absolutely nothing to do with the modern house and how it exists thousands of years later.

[Colonel Green]

Wouldn't it be glorious for the heir of Nymeria to lead her people back to the place where they were most prosperous?

Even setting aside the idea that Dorne isn't their home, which they clearly view it as (hence, the burning of the ships; apart from the Orphans of the Greenblood, but even they don't appear to have ever made any moves to return to the Rhoyne, even after the fall of Valyria), why would there be any reason to think that going back to the Rhoyne would suddenly lead to dramatically different circumstances than the ones they currently live in? They don't have their water magic anymore, and they would have to fight all the people currently living where they used to in order to reestablish the place. They're quite comforable where they are.

[Julia Martell]

Just because the two most powerful families in Dorne have a bit of a thing going, or that they've even come to blows at times, it doesn't mean that either of them is less committed to the concept of Dorne or that they're less willing to unify against outsiders. It's a "pissing contest" as Dunk would say.

It's like Belgium. The Felmings and the Wallons have been bitching about each other since 1830, probably longer. There is always tension and conflict between them. But the minute Germany (for example) invades, none of that matters, they're Belgian.

And no Dornishman ever seems to mention these deep racial divisions that Daeron made up.

[aryagonnakill#2]

I think the OP really neglects the presence of the Dothraki.

[King Blackwood]

I just thought it would be a cool idea.

Nobody can deny that the Rhoynar were more prosperous and powerful when they were living along Mother Rhoyne, though.

[Winterfell is Burning]

The only ones interested would be the Orphans of the Greenblood. And if they did return, in fifteen seconds they would be slaves of Volantis or the Dothraki.

[Dofs]

The only ones interested would be the Orphans of the Greenblood. And if they did return, in fifteen seconds they would be slaves of Volantis or the Dothraki.

Some roynar already live on the Royne now and Volantis doesn't seem to hunt them down so may be if Orphans of the Greenblood return there they will be fine. Obviously they would still be endangered by Volantis. Not sure that dothraki are dangerous to them.

[cgf]

Those who want to stay in Dorne should stay in Dorne. Those who want to go back should go back. But I doubt you'd get many others than the orphans of the greenblood signing up for that.

Unfortunately re-settling their old lands would mean constantly fending of dothraki and volanteen encroachment. And that'd take a lot of people, a lot of money, or the magic of the Rhoyne kicking it up to 11. That said if magic in all of its forms is strong again maybe the magic of the Rhoyne is already capable of sustaining the resettlement and we just haven't seen it.

I just thought it would be a cool idea.

Nobody can deny that the Rhoynar were more prosperous and powerful when they were living along Mother Rhoyne, though.

You're attributing to the river what should be attributed to the water magic that river once fed. That magic that let them stand up against dragons. If they had that same magic in dorne, dorne would be independent with multiple cities. So unless the magic of the mother rhoyne is back, they couldn't regain their past prosperity even if all of dorne left together after pawning everything in their kingdom, and the Reach.

[Fire Eater]

I'm not talking about aristocracy, I'm talking about an entire nation.

Volantis controls the Rhoyne much of the Rhoyne, yes. The other three don't though. The Rhoynar might come into conflict with Volantis though, that is a possibility.

Above the ruins of Ar Noy, the Qohorik rule the river.

The city's domains stretch as far as the western bank of the Darkwash to the east and the Upper Rhoyne to the west. Norvoshi river galleys rule the Noyne as far south as the ruins of Ny Sar, where she joins the Rhoyne.

Pentos soon absorbed the hinterlands surrounding it, from the Velvet Hills and the Little Rhoyne to the sea

The Rhoynar's domain included all the branches of the river, which are under control of the Free Cities just mentioned. Conflict would be inevitable, and I doubt any of the Free Cities would let them reach the Rhoyne, especially Volantis.

[King Blackwood]

Those who want to stay in Dorne should stay in Dorne. Those who want to go back should go back. But I doubt you'd get many others than the orphans of the greenblood signing up for that.

Unfortunately re-settling their old lands would mean constantly fending of dothraki and volanteen encroachment. And that'd take a lot of people, a lot of money, or the magic of the Rhoyne kicking it up to 11. That said if magic in all of its forms is strong again maybe the magic of the Rhoyne is already capable of sustaining the resettlement and we just haven't seen it.

You're attributing to the river what should be attributed to the water magic that river once fed. That magic that let them stand up against dragons. If they had that same magic in dorne, dorne would be independent with multiple cities. So unless the magic of the mother rhoyne is back, they couldn't regain their past prosperity even if all of dorne left together after pawning everything in their kingdom, and the Reach.

Dorne is an inhospitable desert, and the sluggish Greenblood, pitiful in comparison. Mother Rhoyne is lush and bountiful. Their magic let them stand up to dragons for a time, but they were thriving before that and I think it was because the Rhoyne is so hospitable. Volantis thrives without water magic.

Above the ruins of Ar Noy, the Qohorik rule the river.

The city's domains stretch as far as the western bank of the Darkwash to the east and the Upper Rhoyne to the west. Norvoshi river galleys rule the Noyne as far south as the ruins of Ny Sar, where she joins the Rhoyne.

Pentos soon absorbed the hinterlands surrounding it, from the Velvet Hills and the Little Rhoyne to the sea

The Rhoynar's domain included all the branches of the river, which are under control of the Free Cities just mentioned. Conflict would be inevitable, and I doubt any of the Free Cities would let them reach the Rhoyne, especially Volantis.

The World Book talks about how the Rhoynar never had any interest in the area northern areas of the river. I can't remember exactly what it was, something about invaders on some northern tributary which the Rhoynar drove off, but they didn't stay because they preferred the warmer southern climes. So Qohor wouldn't be a problem. Volantis might, but they aren't bothering Yandry and Ysilla, so they'd probably be fine.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I don't see why. Maybe the Orphans want to go back but that doesn't mean that everyone with Rhoynar blood would also want to do the same.

They'd just end up fighting the Palestinians.

True.