Was Daeron II really the Dragonknight's son?

[Ocelot]

We know that Aegon IV suspected that his only trueborn son, Daeron II, was actually fathered by his brother, Aemon Dragonknight, and that is probably the main reason Aegon legitimized his bastards. We know Aegon IV was paranoid and rather stupid, but given that Daeron II resembles Aemon so much more character-wise, and that Naerys and Aemon were known for their mutual love, do you think it might actually be true that Aemon was Daeron's real father?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Aemon and Aegon IV share the same genes, which they got from their parents. It's not odd for children to get some traits that are similar to their uncles.

Still, being nice doesn't necessarily means you will pass this into your kids. As fas as we know, maybe Daeron felt closer to his uncle and he would rather see him more as an example than his own father, specially if he realised he was kinder to his mother..

[Lord Varys]

Aegon IV was a very smart asshole who carefully constructed lies and schemes to manipulate and destroy everyone around him. There is no hint that Aemon and Naerys ever had sex, nor does this story come up before Aegon had reasons to loath his own son.

I really think TWoIaF has conclusively debunked this theory, unless George is not giving us new hints in 'Fire and Blood'.

[Colonel Green]

It can't be ruled out simply because we have no conclusive evidence, but the weight of the story suggests to me that there's nothing to it. Aegon IV hated his wife and his brother, hated that Aemon was defending Naerys from him, disliked his son, and so arrived at the convenient conclusion that his son might not be his son.

Just because Aemon loved his sister, doesn't mean he was schtupping her. And from what we've seen of Naerys, this is a woman who was at grave medical risk from pregnancy (which indeed eventually killed her), but never even sought to secretly make use of any of the birth control methods that exist in Westeros, and we're told she was pious, which fits with that. If she's willing to have an extramarital affair with Aemon, one suspects she could take measures to protect her own health.

[Mithras]

I think taking this as the truth would be the Georgian way. We are supposed to say "So what. Daeron II was a very good king whereas Daemon was a dangerous fool."

[complexphoenix]

Character resemblance means nothing.

Throughout Targaryen family history we see wild shifts of character from one generation to the next all the time. Both of Aegon I's sons were very different from their father. Daeron I was nothing at all like Aegon III, Aegon IV was nothing like Viserys II, and there were plenty of other, smaller changes from one generation to the next.

Before TWOIAF I thought Daeron was probably legitimate... and although we can never be certain, after reading it my headcanon odds of Daeron being legitimate went up. It seems that Aegon just used the accusation, which he knew perfectly well to be false, as a way of picking on his son out of spite. Clearly he hated both Aemon and Naerys, probably because he understood, deep down, that both of them were better than him. Adultery isn't consistent with what we know about the honorable Aemon and pious Naerys. They aren't like Jaime, who just doesn't care about consequences, and Cersei, who is selfish and petty. I'm about as sure as I can be at this point, given the inherent uncertainty of trying to figure out people who are long-dead and whose POVs we don't have, that Daeron was, in fact, Aegon's son.

[Winterfell is Burning]

I thought TWOIAF made it very clear that allegation is non-sense.

[glamourweaver]

It's made clear Maester Yandel considers it nonsense. I'm sure in a parallel universe where Daemon won at the Redgrass Field, the Citadel's official consensus would have ended up rather different. The fact of the matter is we don't know, but it's effectively irrelevant (unlike current ASoI&F parentage mysteries, where the reveals would impact some metaphysical/prophesy status via blood-of-the-dragon).

[Winterfell is Burning]

It's made clear Maester Yandel considers it nonsense. I'm sure in a parallel universe where Daemon won at the Redgrass Field, the Citadel's official consensus would have ended up rather different. The fact of the matter is we don't know, but it's effectively irrelevant (unlike current ASoI&F parentage mysteries, where the reveals would impact some metaphysical/prophesy status via blood-of-the-dragon).

Yandel has no reason to be pro-Targaryen, since he begun this book writing for a man that was known for his hatred of Targaryens. Plus, the fact that Aegon IV was a vile man, Aemon very honorable and Naerys very pious is undisputed.

[Colonel Green]

Yandel has no reason to be pro-Targaryen, since he begun this book writing for a man that was known for his hatred of Targaryens. Plus, the fact that Aegon IV was a vile man, Aemon very honorable and Naerys very pious is undisputed.

To be honest, I've often thought that at a certain point the Dragonknight story became more of a plus for the Targaryens than a minus, since Aegon IV is now pretty much universally considered one of, if not the, worst rulers in the history of the Seven Kingdoms, and the Dragonknight is a legendary hero. With the Blackfyres no longer around, especially, the romantic story of Naerys and Aemon is a far nicer tale to be told about the descent of the current line of kings (even if it can't be acknowleged officially, you still have every young knight and lady in the realm hearing the songs about it, etc.).

[Winterfell is Burning]

To be honest, I've often thought that at a certain point the Dragonknight story became more of a plus for the Targaryens than a minus, since Aegon IV is now pretty much universally considered one of, if not the, worst rulers in the history of the Seven Kingdoms, and the Dragonknight is a legendary hero. With the Blackfyres no longer around, especially, the romantic story of Naerys and Aemon is a far nicer tale to be told about the descent of the current line of kings (even if it can't be acknowleged officially, you still have every young knight and lady in the realm hearing the songs about it, etc.).

Yeah. Being descended from a man like Aemon rather than a piece of garbage like Aegon should be a plus.

[glamourweaver]

Yandel has no reason to be pro-Targaryen, since he begun this book writing for a man that was known for his hatred of Targaryens. Plus, the fact that Aegon IV was a vile man, Aemon very honorable and Naerys very pious is undisputed.

The historic consensus had been pre-shaped for decades before Robert's Rebellion and Yandel. Also the official justification for the Baratheon claim on the Throne descends by way Egg's daughter Princess Rhaelle. If Daeron II was a bastard that delegitimizes his entire line.

Obviously Baratheon rule was actually based on conquest, not heredity - but that is a point of propaganda justification that was important.

[complexphoenix]

Also, if Aegon really believed that Daeron wasn't his, why didn't he formally disown him? Once Aemon and Naerys were both dead, there was no one to stop him, no one to complain but the Dornish. And while the Dornish are very good at defending themselves, they lacked the strength to invade the kingdoms under Targaryen rule. And it's not like Aegon cared what the Dornish thought about anything anyway, as demonstrated by his hilariously failed attempt to conquer them with wooden dragons.

The fact that he was all talk and no action on this front is further evidence that he was just being an ass and knew perfectly well it wasn't true.

[glamourweaver]

It's actually quite plausible that Aegon IV was enough of an ass to intentionally orchestrate an inevitable civil war - hence not simply disowning Daeron and naming Daemon his heir explicitly, as was clearly his preference.

[Lord Varys]

I think we can reasonably deduce that Aegon's last act on his deathbed was supposed to cause chaos for both the Realm and the Targaryen dynasty. Aegon seems to be the kind of person who would that. The book also more or less confirms why he did not formally disown Daeron. He feared that this would lead to a (civil) war because he knew that Daeron's friends - especially the Prince of Dorne - would not accept this decision.

The fact that he did not risk this war strongly suggests that he knew/feared he would lose it because, well, nobody but his cronies would support him. Daeron vs. Aegon IV would have been something different that Rhaegar vs. Aerys because Aegon IV would have made the first step, trying to disown his legitimate and innocent son, whereas Rhaegar clearly plotted against Aerys.

Aegon IV seems to be pretty much like Viserys II, by the way. He clearly inherited his intelligence and wit. His flaw was the fact that he could not rule his passions, nor exactly the fact that he was too stupid to know what he was doing. It is said that Aegon was the wittiest prince in his youth, suggesting that he could have been one of the best kings in history if he had cared to be good king (or rather, a good person). But he clearly did not.

[Annara Snow]

It's probably one of those things that are never going to be answered and we'll be left to draw our own conclusions.

Adultery isn't consistent with what we know about the honorable Aemon and pious Naerys. They aren't like Jaime, who just doesn't care about consequences, and Cersei, who is selfish and petty. I'm about as sure as I can be at this point, given the inherent uncertainty of trying to figure out people who are long-dead and whose POVs we don't have, that Daeron was, in fact, Aegon's son.

Ugh. And now I really, really want it even more to be true that Naerys and Aemon were lovers. I wanted it even before, because otherwise their lives were just too sad and it's all incredibly unjust. But now you're making me want it really badly, because I so, so hate this attitude that "a good woman who is married against her will to an asshole who doesn't care for her and had sex with everyone will never have an affair with someone she actually loves unless she is SELFISH AND PETTY" and "a virtuous man who thinks about consequences would never stand between a good woman who was married against her will and her asshole husband". :bang:

I don't know if Naerys and Aemon were sleeping together, but I sure hope they were. But in any case, the realm would've been much better off if Naerys had arranged a little accident for her husband, maybe the Iron Throne could 'mysteriously' 'kill him' like Maegor; or at least if Aemon left the Toynes to give Aegon his very deserved death, rather than giving his life for his asshole of a brother. If only Aemon had really thought about consequences, he should have left them kill him. Daeron succeeds the throne, everyone is much happier, all the women of the kingdom can breathe more easily... and, though no one would have known that at the time Aegon doesn't get to legitimize Daemon so the Blackfyre rebellion never happens. (And how good for the Targaryens and everyone would it have been if Rhaella had arranged a little accident for Aerys... Sometimes 'doing your duty' and accepting your shitty fate like a "good woman" has just as bad consequences for the world as being like Cersei.)

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I don't know if Naerys and Aemon were sleeping together, but I sure hope they were. But in any case, the realm would've been much better off if Naerys had arranged a little accident for her husband, maybe the Iron Throne could 'mysteriously' 'kill him' like Maegor; or at least if Aemon left the Toynes to give Aegon his very deserved death, rather than giving his life for his asshole of a brother. If only Aemon had really thought about consequences, he should have left them kill him. Daeron succeeds the throne, everyone is much happier, all the women of the kingdom can breathe more easily... and, though no one would have known that at the time Aegon doesn't get to legitimize Daemon so the Blackfyre rebellion never happens. (And how good for the Targaryens and everyone would it have been if Rhaella had arranged a little accident for Aerys... Sometimes 'doing your duty' and accepting your shitty fate like a "good woman" has just as bad consequences for the world as being like Cersei.)

If Naerys never got Aegon killed I think it was not because she was a dutiful wife but because of her gentle pious nature. Although, she kinda had a bit of a nerve if she

asked him to leave her alone after Daeron was born.

Rhaella, otoh, had no reasons to not kill Aerys or arrange an accident.

[Colonel Green]

Although, she kinda had a bit of a nerve if she asked him to leave her alone after Daeron was born.

She asked him not to sleep with her so that they wouldn't have more kids, because that was medically dangerous for her (and, indeed, ultimately killed her).

[Lord Varys]

I'm pretty sure both Naerys and Aemon would not have had any joy in life if they ever had an affair, because, well, they both would have to break sacred vows to begin or continue such an affair, and considering their character that would most likely not all that happy, but consume them with a lot of guilt.

Not to mention that the fact that Naerys did not want to get pregnant due to her bad health and intercourse with the Dragonknight are essentially mutually exclusive, as the fact that Naerys did get pregnant repeatedly strongly suggests that she did not use any sort of contraceptive, and we would thus have to conclude that Naerys and Aemon lusted after each other to such an extent that they risked Naerys' health for their pleasure. Aegon obviously did that, but I don't think Aemon would.

And Naerys asking Aegon to leave her alone after the birth of Daeron is also no sign of strength. He wasn't even king back then. Prince Viserys' son did not really need a heir, as the Targaryen line was expected to be continued by Daeron I and Baelor, not the Aegon's younger brother.

[Colonel Green]

And Naerys asking Aegon to leave her alone after the birth of Daeron is also no sign of strength. He wasn't even king back then. Prince Viserys' son did not really need a heir, as the Targaryen line was expected to be continued by Daeron I and Baelor, not the Aegon's younger brother.

Given what we know about Aegon's character, and the legal rights he had over her as a result of being married (note that even Baelor, when he was concerned about Naerys' health, had to resolve this matter by sending Aegon out of town), making that request of him would have taken strength (even though more sensitive husbands would have halted on their own, due to the health concerns).