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The Snark of Winterfell

Hyrkoon the Hero, Azor Ahai, Yin Tar, Neferion and Eldric Shadowchaser, same person or different?

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So what does R'hllor have to do with it? I'd have liked to see more about that religion (and the Faith as well).

Nothing. There is no Rhlorr. Azor Ahai didnot exist. He was forged some 5-6 thousand years ago as the founding myth of the Red Religion.

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Nothing. There is no Rhlorr. Azor Ahai didnot exist. He was forged some 5-6 thousand years ago as the founding myth of the Red Religion.

Good, then we don't have to search for any Lightbringer, since that's obviously also just Eastern Mythology.

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Good, then we don't have to search for any Lightbringer, since that's obviously also just Eastern Mythology.

Not really. AA myth was not created out of thin air; in fact, it was most probably created 5000 years ago when it was correctly prophesized that the savior would return. They called him AA and produced the known tales about him but there were nuggets of truths in those tales. I say it in every turn that those tales were very well known all around the world because they were based on the LH who ended the LN 3000 years ago before the forging of AA myth.

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The Azor Ahai return prophecy story comes from Asshai, according to Yandel, but we don't really know if the name comes from Asshai, too. I doubt that, as the name sounds Sarnori. It makes also no sense to assume that the Asshai'i would care one bit about Westerosi heroes in devising their own heroes or in regards to their prophecy for the future. Nothing suggests that the usual Asshai'i sorcerer/prophet gave to figs about 'some lands' in the Far West.



What the Red God has to do with any of this is not clear, either, but nothing confirms that the R'hllorians were already there when the ancient Asshai'i made their prophecies about 'Azor Ahai's' eventual return and Lightbringer. They may have just jumped on the wagon. That's still unknown. But it seems that R'hllor comes from Asshai or rather the Far East, as he was not an original Valyrian deity.


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If anyone would have detailed records of the Long Night it would have been Valyria. I believe they were founded not long after the Long Night subsided. I wonder if the sorcerer princes of Valyria remembered the Others and that was one reason why they stayed out of Westeros

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What drives me nuts is that outside of Westeros we have tons of savior legends but no mention of what they saved humanity from. Westeros has the WW's but nothing is mentioned about what all these other guys saved everyone from. Sure we get allusions to "evil" and "darkness" and "demons" sent by the Lion of the Night but it strikes me as extremely odd that we don't even get a rumor of what actually happened. I didn't expect a true history bc after so many years all that remains are the legends, but we don't really get that either. No superstitious enemies, no tales told by smallfolk, no "if the legends are to be believed", nothing whatsoever. If u remove Westeros from the picture it almost seems like it just got really really dark for a couple decades until a hero forged a nightlight in the shape of a sword. So considering the fact that tLoAW only share a land bridge with Westeros does anyone have any inclination as to what the rest of the world was threatened by? If the WW's attacked worldwide wouldn't we get some indication of ice monster legends in other parts of the world?

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Do any of you have any idea who or what the bloodstone emperor was. Does he have a connection to the others? What is the Church of Starry Wisdom that he was supposedly the founder and first high priest of???

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Not really. AA myth was not created out of thin air; in fact, it was most probably created 5000 years ago when it was correctly prophesized that the savior would return. They called him AA and produced the known tales about him but there were nuggets of truths in those tales. I say it in every turn that those tales were very well known all around the world because they were based on the LH who ended the LN 3000 years ago before the forging of AA myth.

But FM myths don't say squat about Lightbringer. It's all Eastern Mythology. You hear of Azor A'hai and Hyrkoon the Hero use Lightbringer, but never of the Last Hero. Lightbringer is an element of the Eastern mythological tradition, not of the Westerosi tradition at all.

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It's possible that the Long Night was so catastrophic that humanity was reduced to a bottle neck. One of the humans in this small populations managed to end the Long Night one way or another. This bottleneck population then managed to colonize the whol of Planetos in the subsequent 8000 years. This strikes me as unlikely considering how vastly different the ethnicities of Planetos are.



Another option is that there were several heroes, across the world, working in tangent, destroying whatever local manifestation the Long Night took.



Of course, there could always have been one single hero who's tale was spread across the earth, and morphed into forms appropriate to whatever region it was in.


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My take is that the Long Night was caused by the Others in Westeros, and ended there, yet most cultures on the earth did not know about that. They just suffered when it became cold and dark and the night and the winter did not seem to end. When the sun and the warmth finally came back again, the Eastern cultures explained in theological and mythological terms what had happened, attributing the end of the Long Night to the the deeds of their own heroes and gods. And perhaps even to real world personalities that lived in those ages (i.e. Hyrkoon the Hero).



Melisandre still seems to believe that praying to R'hllor is what helps/causes the sun to come again each dawn. But this clearly is not the case. Yet according to her theological belief it is 'true'.



It may be the case that people from the East traveled to Westeros during the Long Night and fought in the War for the Dawn, but it does not seem likely that they returned home and spread the tale of 'the true war' there, as no mythical tale Yandel gives us about the Long Night from the East even mentions Westeros/the West as the place where the War for the Dawn was fought. Surely people would have known that the battles were fought in the West, as they could not possibly have been fought in the East where the Others did not live - unless we assume the contrary without evidence.



The idea that there were 'local manifestations' of the Long Night makes little sense to me. Yandel speaks of one great cataclysm, which was felt all over the world. Light and warmth disappeared. What differs is the severity of the phenomenon (it would have been colder and darker in the northern reaches of the world) as well as the explanation for it. In Yi Ti, the deeds of the Bloodstone Emperor and the general sinfulness of humanity are blamed as cause of the Long Night.


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I wonder. If R'hllor doesn't exist, how is it that his devotees can (at least in some sense) raise the dead (speech recognition wanted to say "raise the debt")?

We know that Melisandre comes from Asshai, but do we know if she's actually of Asshai'i origin? Perhaps she was raised in the culture that originated the AA myth (assuming it is a myth).

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I wonder. If R'hllor doesn't exist, how is it that his devotees can (at least in some sense) raise the dead (speech recognition wanted to say "raise the debt")?

We know that Melisandre comes from Asshai, but do we know if she's actually of Asshai'i origin? Perhaps she was raised in the culture that originated the AA myth (assuming it is a myth).

Simple, the priests of R'hllor who do magic just do magic and attribute it to R'hllor when in reality it's just magic. No Gods needed.

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Simple, the priests of R'hllor who do magic just do magic and attribute it to R'hllor when in reality it's just magic. No Gods needed.

Well if there is magic I see little reason not invoke Gods.

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I always thought they are different people, all heroes who combat the darkness with flaming swords or stuff alike, but they can't be the same person, as the next long night is coming, I think there will be many saviors, like, Jon, Daenerys, Stannis (maybe), Tyrion and some others.



I don't think Bran and Arya will be heroes, they are more to the dark side at this point.


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I bekieve there were two heros. One in Westeros and one in Essos. The Westeros one was the Last Hero, who's tale is mostly the same, maybe a few minor things like ice spiders added to scare the kiddies. The Essos hero was the one who helped build Five Forts, he wielded Lightbringer (whether it was magical or not is up to debate). Eventually his tale was distorted by other cultures, and the AA/tPtwP/etc were created.

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Well if there is magic I see little reason not invoke Gods.

I was wondering that as well, because it seemed as though the magic would have to come from somewhere, unless it were purely a matter of technique.

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My take is that the Long Night was caused by the Others in Westeros, and ended there, yet most cultures on the earth did not know about that. They just suffered when it became cold and dark and the night and the winter did not seem to end. When the sun and the warmth finally came back again, the Eastern cultures explained in theological and mythological terms what had happened, attributing the end of the Long Night to the the deeds of their own heroes and gods. And perhaps even to real world personalities that lived in those ages (i.e. Hyrkoon the Hero).

Melisandre still seems to believe that praying to R'hllor is what helps/causes the sun to come again each dawn. But this clearly is not the case. Yet according to her theological belief it is 'true'.

It may be the case that people from the East traveled to Westeros during the Long Night and fought in the War for the Dawn, but it does not seem likely that they returned home and spread the tale of 'the true war' there, as no mythical tale Yandel gives us about the Long Night from the East even mentions Westeros/the West as the place where the War for the Dawn was fought. Surely people would have known that the battles were fought in the West, as they could not possibly have been fought in the East where the Others did not live - unless we assume the contrary without evidence.

The idea that there were 'local manifestations' of the Long Night makes little sense to me. Yandel speaks of one great cataclysm, which was felt all over the world. Light and warmth disappeared. What differs is the severity of the phenomenon (it would have been colder and darker in the northern reaches of the world) as well as the explanation for it. In Yi Ti, the deeds of the Bloodstone Emperor and the general sinfulness of humanity are blamed as cause of the Long Night.

This was my position right from the beginning :)

I think the LH was the one and true hero of the LN. His deeds spread around the world over the time and local heroes imported his deeds.

An old legend told in Pentos claims that the Andals slew the swan maidens who lured travelers to their deaths in the Velvet Hills that lie to the east of the Free City. A hero whom the Pentoshi singers call Hukko led the Andals at that time, and it is said that he slew the seven maids not for their crimes but instead as sacrifice to his gods. There are some maesters who have noted that Hukko may well be a rendering of the name of Hugor. But even more so than in the Seven Kingdoms, ancient legends from the east must be distrusted. Too many peoples have traveled back and forth, and too many legends and tales have mingled.

Beyond the Great Sand Sea another world awaits: the Further East, a vast land of plains and hills and river valleys that seems to have no end, where strange gods rule over stranger peoples. Many great cities and proud kingdoms have risen and flourished and fallen here since the dawn of days; most of these are little known in the west, even their very names long forgotten. Only the broadest outlines of the histories of the Further East are known to the Citadel, and even in those tales that have come west to us, over long leagues of mountains and deserts, there are many omissions, gaps, and contradictions, making it all but impossible to say with any certainty what portion is true and what portion has arisen from the fevered imaginings of singers, storytellers, and wet nurses.

This is the mechanism of how the legend of the LH found its way to the East.

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