R+L=J v.114

[finger]

On Viserys' claim to the throne, Jaime has an interesting memory in ASOS. He has just killed Aerys and Roland Crakehall finds him in the throne room. Jaime orders Crakehall to announce the death of the king.

So when he thinks of proclaiming a new Targaryen king, he thinks first of Viserys and only second of Aegon. This may be a hint that Jaime

knew that Viserys was the "new heir" as soon as Rhaegar died

On what Hightower, Dayne and Whent knew, here is a rough timeline of relevant events.

Day 1: Dany is conceived in King's Landing. Jaime and Jon Darry are present. Rossart becomes Hand until he dies 2 weeks later.

Day 2: Rhaegar, J Darry and others leave for the Trident.

Day 14: Rhaegar and J Darry die on the Trident. Tywin sets out from Casterly Rock and Ned leaves the Trident with Robert's vanguard.

Robert is too wounded to go with Ned. Robert's Maester treats Robert and then treats Barristan.

Day 15: Aerys learns that Rhaegar is dead.

Viserys is the "new heir" either by Royal decree or automatically as the only surviving son of the king.

. Aerys sends Viserys and Rhaella (now 2 weeks pregnant) to Dragonstone and keeps Aegon, Elia and Rhaenys in King's Landing.

Day 21: Tywin and Ned arrive in King's Landing. The Sack. Aerys' death is announced by Crakehall. Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon "die" too, but Tywin conceals this.

Day 22: Rhaella learns of Aerys' death. Viserys is proclaimed king on Dragonstone. Presumably, Ravens are sent everywhere announcing the new Targaryen king. Viserys starts his 9 month reign on Dragonstone.

Day 24: (Estimating that it takes Ned and the cavalry 7 days to reach KL but it takes Robert and the infantry 10 days). Robert arrives in King's Landing. Tywin dramatically reveals the death of "Aegon." Ned leaves to fight the last battles of the rebellion alone.

Day 31: Ned arrives at Storm's End.

Day 32: the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dip their banners.

Day 40: Ned reaches the TOJ, kills he 3KGs. Sometime later, Lyanna dies

Day 225: Dany is born, 9 moons after Rhaella fled KL. Soon after, she and Viserys flee to Essos.

So, what did the 3KG at the TOJ know, and when did they know it?

They know that Robert won on the Trident, and that Aerys died in the Sack. So they have pretty good information up to the time of Aerys' death.

Since we know that

Viserys was the heir for almost a week before Aerys died, and for probably at least 3 weeks before Ned got to the TOJ, then if their source of information knew this, they would know it too. So the only question is whether Viserys' status as the heir was a secret.

Finally, whoever their source was had to have known Viserys was the new heir. The only way that would be a secret is if Aerys wanted it to be secret. But that would defeat the whole purpose of naming a new heir (if it was even necessary to do that). Every king who names a new heir does it publicly. Viserys II and Robb both had all the available lords bear witness when they named new heirs.

Forget about ir, you'll never receive an answer.

For some tiem, there was a war, there was a king, there was a crown prince, there was a queen, there was another prince, there were the crown prince's familly, wife and two children. Meanwhile three out of seven king guards were camping about with Lyanna.

Eventually, most of them died and war ended, and it didn't mind where the spared KG were. But in the time between the Trident and the Sack, it did matter.

However, most people refuse to talk, or even think, about it.

[Greymoon]

On Viserys' claim to the throne, Jaime has an interesting memory in ASOS. He has just killed Aerys and Roland Crakehall finds him in the throne room. Jaime orders Crakehall to announce the death of the king.

So when he thinks of proclaiming a new Targaryen king, he thinks first of Viserys and only second of Aegon. This may be a hint that Jaime

knew that Viserys was the "new heir" as soon as Rhaegar died

I think it's a hint that Jaime knows his father well and expects that Tywin will want to wed Cersei to the new King. He doesn't know that Robert will be that King yet, so Viserys being older, would then seem the better choice over Aegon. Aegon is yet a babe and might still die in infancy -- Viserys on the other hand is only a few short years away from being able to "perform" his duty, thus consummate the marriage and secure Cersei's position as Queen.

[And if Tywin had wanted a puppet King, Viserys might also have been the better choice because he'd have been somewhat autonomous and able to speak; Viserys defending Tywin's regency would have given it a legitimacy few could have interfered with -- not so with baby Aegon. Further, Tywin would have needed to consider Elia and Rhaella in his plans, and I'd think that Rhaella would have been more permeable to Tywin's influence. I'd not be surprised if Jaime had sensed so as well and automatically cast Viserys as the most likely candidate, however unwittingly.]

It might also be a hint that Jaime does not often think about Aegon -- sure, the boy is Rhaegar's son, but he's still quite a new addition to the family, while Viserys has held the title of 'Prince' far longer...It would seem normal to think first of Viserys and only later of Aegon as possible future kings.

[sj4iy]

Jaime also dreams about Rhaegar telling him that he trusted him to keep his children safe. I would put a lot more weight on that dream than I would something that Jaime told someone or the order in which he said it.

[Alia of the knife]

Is this a serious theory? I am not familiar with it. I would like to hear more.

See KM's respnse, and fun is the operative word always. :)

I just think her dying her hair is a bit suspicious. Unless she is "expressing" herself, most of the characters doing this are hiding a particular trait like their hair, (i.e., Aegon and possibly Varys reminiscent of Egg).

And while even someone as fit as Brienne could die in childbirth, I always wondered if Lyannas pregnancy was complicated by something else given I think Rhaegar would have taken every precaution for her safety and health.

[Alia of the knife]

To what end? If his plan is to put a Blackfyre on the throne a la fAegon but in the guise of a perfect Targaryen prince, then you need a Blackfyre who has been taught to be a perfect Targaryen prince which he wouldn't have at the time of Aerys. I think Varys was comfy in his position and the power and credence he was getting at court. Too early to make a move. Now, had Rhaegar succeeded in overthrowing Aerys, he might have moved on his plans more.

I think that Varys and Illyio are long term planners.

There is a good theory that both Varys and Serra are brother and sister and Blackfyres.

Varys cannot reproduce, so the line exists only through the female, Serra. Illryio is possibly a Brightflame descendant so the lines are united, likely believing they were the rightful and best of the dragons to sit the IT.

Varys is a true believer in his mission, and perhaps feels at the point of Rhaegar, it was too late for the Targaryen line to redeem itself, but had Rhaegar became king and restored the glory of the Targaryens, (which is why I feel that doing so might have been as much a consideration as saving the world), it would made putting a Blackfyre on the IT that much harder.

It really does go back to the "War of the Roses," and its origins and the sons of the Edward III:

- Lionel, Duke of Clarence

- John, Duke of Lancaster

- Edmund, Duke of York

- Thomas, Duke of Gloucester.

Now, while John, Duke of Lancaster is in no way a historical parallel to Aegon the Unworthy, its more situational as Johns natural children by his long term mistress, Kathryn Swinford, (whom he did later marry), is where the Beauforts, and Henry VII, (House of Lancaster), came by their claims, with Margaret Beaufort, Henrys mother being the driving force behind Henrys claim.

Richard II, Edward III's grandson succeeded him, and for his Uncle, the Duke of Lancaster, Richard II legitimized his children with Kathryn with the caveat they would make no claims to the throne, which of course didn't work.

There are some who have said that actually the Spanish had a better claim through the Dukes second wife, Constance of Castile and their daughter Catherine of Lancaster.

Their one son died in infancy.

Westeros Parallel:

- Margaret Beaufort/ Serra, (f)Aegons mother

-Illryio (Brightflame)/Edmund Tudor

- Varys/John Welles/Jasper Tudor

- Henry VII/(f)Aegon as well as claimants through a bastard line

And:

- (f)Aegon/ Perkin Warbeck

- Jon/ Henry VII

- Dany/Potentially Elizabeth of York

Its certainly not exact and the characters are likely a mix, or hybrids of different historical parallels, but the results are similar.

Agreed, unless there was something else going on and there was a need to gain Stark's support and break off the Stark/Baratheon alliance at the same time...also it need not have been only a political move -- as I said earlier, Rhaegar's decision may have been political, though that doesn't exclude that it was influenced by his affection for Lyanna, Elia's health problems and a prophecy.

We also have no idea about Rhaegar's relationship to Robert, or Rickard's character thus we do not know that Lyanna could have influenced them at all. (especially in views of Robert's treatment of women). I find it telling that Rickard does not attend the tournament of Harrenhal. He sends all of his children but not himself to a tournament that both the King and crown Prince are attending and is one of the most important events in decades. Personally, I'd be curious to know how many northmen actually attended and wouldn't be surprised to find out few did.

It can also be that Rhaegar was in fact doing damage control. There's the KotLT possibility that has been discussed before; but even without going in that direction I believe Aerys could have had reasons to take Lyanna away from her betrothed. According to RW history, marriages between powerful houses required a King's consent, and even where there was no consent required it oft became a matter of strife.

It does not seem that consent was deemed necessary in Westeros, but I would absolutely not be surprised if Aerys decided that he did not like the Stark/Baratheon match. He and his councilors would have had to be utter idiots to allow a Stark/Baratheon match to take place, right after the Stark/Tully one and particularly in views of the fostering relationship with heir-less Jon Arryn.

That was one potentially powerful power block no matter the motivations behind it. Robert might have loved Lyanna, Jon Arryn might have had no ambitions, Tully and Stark might only have been good pals with no political agenda etc. their true motivations is completely irrelevant, the only thing that matters is how it appears.

I'm not saying I adhere totally and completely to a southron ambition theory -- but, when we look at facts, and only facts, from the point of view of Aerys and his councilors, it might have looked like the north was either plotting a coup, or even planning secession.

I mention secession, because I do not believe that the readiness with which the northerners declared Robb King was a coincidence at all -- I think, it was a long time coming, and that decades before Robb's crowning, there was already a desire to break away from King's Landing.

As for the coup, it would be hard to overlook that Robert Baratheon was the King's own kin -- he had a claim on the Iron Throne, through blood. I'm speaking of two distinct possibilities here, not both at the same time -- though maybe the truth lies somewhat in between a coup and secession.

My take-away, is that the Families, not just his own, getting the kings permission is the the one area that Martin deviates from, because getting the king/queens permission was one way the monarchy kept a control on the doings and the growhth of such power blocs. If Aerys had this option, he could have vetoed all the marriages of Stark, Lannister, Berantheon, Tully and Aryn.

It could very well be that in return for the Westorosi to "look the other way" regarding the marriage practices of the Targaryens, they too didn't interfere with the doings and marriages of their subjects.

They did have dragons after all to deal with any uprisings.

As for the Starks, and I forget where I read it, (either the app. or the wiki), it maintained that Rickard was still considered to be an honorable man, and that it was Robert that asked for Lyannas hand and not the other way around, so I would think influencing him in a very natural direction wouldn't be that hard, but it is also unlikely that Rickard would be as dishonorable as to break the betrothal.

I also wonder about all of Rickards children running loose to be strange and wonder if Lyanna and Benjen didn't sneak off to join their brothers, making Lyanna truly an outlier in the Harrenhal plans, as well as having to stay with with the Whents so that there would be a female presence and less scandelous.

Also, why would Rickard trust his presumably "hot headed" heir with any sort of plans in conspiracy?

Either Brandon was the capable leader that Cersei recalls, up until the emotional "kidnapping" of his sister, or he wasn't.

And now we know that Brandon had to be restrained at the crowning of his sister, so why would we assume Rickard would have liked it any better?

And wasn't Umber who said it was the dragons we "married," not the lions, and while I agree northern independence isn't off the table, the Starks really never lost anything in the deal but a title, and the Targaryens were impressed with the honor of the Starks, so likely never gave them personally any cause to stray.

In terms of his "southern ambitions," it could be that similarly to Peter the Great who wanted to bring Russia into the enlightenment and with the rest of Europe, Rickard wanted to bring the North into line with the rest of the south, (not foresaking all the old ways of course), but to be more of a political presence and influence and no more.

It seems a big leap to go from obscurity and isolation to conspiracy, though to be sure, not impossible.

Lady Barbarys tone strikes not only of jealousy over the loss of Brandon, (though I still think she is a secret Stark loyalist), but also of resentment of some of Rickards ways, such as bringing in a Maester and marrying his children further into the south, which undercuts many of the northerns families rise up the ladder as the Starks are stil considered the "kings" in the north.

There is also the already historical and traditional loyalty of the Starks to the Targaryens, and the only deviation from this that I migh speculate on is the detetioration of Aerys.

All of these men, Rickard, Jon Aryn, and Hoster would have remembered a more reasonable and sane Targaryen regime, and transferring their loyalty to Rhaegar is not necessarily "treason," and would not require Lyannas hand in marriage for them to be willing to do so, so long as it got the kingdom back into good order again, which presumably Rhaegar would do.

There is nothing to indicate, that up to the crowning of Lyanna, that Robert wouldn't have been a good little soldier to the Targaryen cause as he was willing to happily unmask tKotLT, for whom was even an insult to Rhaegar, because what would have happened if Rhaegar had found tKotLT to be a man and a threat?

Lyanna was neither, and her cause had nothing to do with anything against Aerys or the Targaryens, which is one reason we assume he protected her. Had Aerys actually known it was a girl, he might have laughed at the barbarian northerners, and given Robert his sympathies for his wayward betrothed, wishing him luck.

Whatever Rhaegar was planning, it seemed to take even him a long time to see the excesses of his father according to both Joncon and even in his speech to Jaime about roads not taken.

[Lord Rowmark]

In the 3rd chapter of Jon, A Game of Thrones, Jon thinks to himself when Toad suggest the men on the walls mothers were most likely whores. "Not my mother, Jon thought stubbornly. He knew nothing of his mother; Eddard Stark would not talk of her. Yet he dreamed of her at times, so often that he could almost see her face. In his dreams, she was beautiful, and highborn, and her eyes were kind"

This caught my eye because Lyanna is said to be beautiful; we know she is highborn; but do we ever hear from someone else about her eyes? Eddard or Robert maybe? Does anyone else say they were kind?

[Ghost's Shadow]

That's a great thing to bring up. ;)

[The Twinslayer]

See KM's respnse, and fun is the operative word always. :)

I just think her dying her hair is a bit suspicious. Unless she is "expressing" herself, most of the characters doing this are hiding a particular trait like their hair, (i.e., Aegon and possibly Varys reminiscent of Egg).

And while even someone as fit as Brienne could die in childbirth, I always wondered if Lyannas pregnancy was complicated by something else given I think Rhaegar would have taken every precaution for her safety and health.

Interesting. Thank you both.

[The Wolves]

In the 3rd chapter of Jon, A Game of Thrones, Jon thinks to himself when Toad suggest the men on the walls mothers were most likely whores. "Not my mother, Jon thought stubbornly. He knew nothing of his mother; Eddard Stark would not talk of her. Yet he dreamed of her at times, so often that he could almost see her face. In his dreams, she was beautiful, and highborn, and her eyes were kind"

This caught my eye because Lyanna is said to be beautiful; we know she is highborn; but do we ever hear from someone else about her eyes? Eddard or Robert maybe? Does anyone else say they were kind?

Nope nobody ever says that Lyanna's eyes were kind.

[Alia of the knife]

In the 3rd chapter of Jon, A Game of Thrones, Jon thinks to himself when Toad suggest the men on the walls mothers were most likely whores. "Not my mother, Jon thought stubbornly. He knew nothing of his mother; Eddard Stark would not talk of her. Yet he dreamed of her at times, so often that he could almost see her face. In his dreams, she was beautiful, and highborn, and her eyes were kind"

This caught my eye because Lyanna is said to be beautiful; we know she is highborn; but do we ever hear from someone else about her eyes? Eddard or Robert maybe? Does anyone else say they were kind?

I bet Howland Reed does. He seems to have spoken fondly of her/tKotLT to Meera and Jojen. ;)

[Jehane]

I'm currently reading A Game of Thrones - more slowly and with more concentration then the first time around because I don't want to miss any clues and hints. Now, I haven't read through all the R + L = J threads so maybe this question has already been answered before: Who is still around that could actually vouch for Jon's Claim and prove that he's a Targaryen? From Ned's POVs, it's clear that he avoids the subject and I think GRRM is trying to mislead us when he lets Ned drop the Name of Wylla or muse on dishonour/betraying your wife. Yet at the same time he recalls a promise he made to Lyanna which, to me, is obviously a promise along the lines of "Please don't tell anybody that I have a son who's half Targaryen because he might be killed. Please raise him at Winterfell and pretend he's your bastard son". Rhaegar's dead. Lyanna's dead. Robert thinks Lyanna has been raped by Rhaegar and still hates him; Ned made that promise to Lyanna which is never clearly stated. Robert dies. Ned dies. Jon doesn't know anything about his mother. So who could know that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna? I can't think of anyone right now and keep pondering that question; maybe the answer is obvious and I just don't see it.

[RumHam]

I'm currently reading A Game of Thrones - more slowly and with more concentration then the first time around because I don't want to miss any clues and hints. Now, I haven't read through all the R + L = J threads so maybe this question has already been answered before: Who is still around that could actually vouch for Jon's Claim and prove that he's a Targaryen? From Ned's POVs, it's clear that he avoids the subject and I think GRRM is trying to mislead us when he lets Ned drop the Name of Wylla or muse on dishonour/betraying your wife. Yet at the same time he recalls a promise he made to Lyanna which, to me, is obviously a promise along the lines of "Please don't tell anybody that I have a son who's half Targaryen because he might be killed. Please raise him at Winterfell and pretend he's your bastard son". Rhaegar's dead. Lyanna's dead. Robert thinks Lyanna has been raped by Rhaegar and still hates him; Ned made that promise to Lyanna which is never clearly stated. Robert dies. Ned dies. Jon doesn't know anything about his mother. So who could know that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna? I can't think of anyone right now and keep pondering that question; maybe the answer is obvious and I just don't see it.

Howland Reed, Bloodraven, or maybe Bran through visions.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Howland Reed, Bloodraven, or maybe Bran through visions.

Additional possibilities for the reveal include Jon finally completing the crypt vision. As far as other people who might know, there could be people at Starfall (Wylla herself) would might know because they also were part of the original situation at ToJ (getting them supplies and information).

[Ser Leftwich]

From the WoIaF, we know that...

Steffon and Aerys were close.

The theory that Aerys wanted to be party to arranging the marriage of his nephew, Robert, has come up in the past. Aerys was both an older male relative and the King. Any other hints in the new book that help this theory?

Perhaps Rhaegar 'kidnapping' Lyanna was motivated by: 1) helping Lyanna out a of marriage to Robert she did not want, 2) making Aerys happy, to arrange a marriage for Robert, 3) getting a new/second 'true love' wife for himself (assuming Elia was barren), 4) appeasing Rickard with a reasonable substitute to the Robert marriage (this one is a little weak).

Trying to kill many birds with one stone.

[Greymoon]

is there anything in WoIaF about Rhaegar's marriage to Elia? where it took place, who attended?

[RumHam]

is there anything in WoIaF about Rhaegar's marriage to Elia? where it took place, who attended?

They were married in King's Landing in 280. It's noted that Aerys did not attend, or allow Viserys to.

[Ser Leftwich]

Joffrey and Margaery's large lavish wedding was in the Great Sept of Baelor. So Rhaegar and Elia's wedding may also have been there. Also, that is another opportunity for the small folk to love Rhaegar, some kind of general party in KL.

They were married in King's Landing in 280. It's noted that Aerys did not attend, or allow Viserys to.

Was there a tourney?

[RumHam]

Joffrey and Margaery's large lavish wedding was in the Great Sept of Baelor. So Rhaegar and Elia's wedding may also have been there. Also, that is another opportunity for the small folk to love Rhaegar, some kind of general party in KL.

Was there a tourney?

I don't think it mentions a tourney, but that doesn't necessarily mean there wasn't one.

[Greymoon]

They were married in King's Landing in 280. It's noted that Aerys did not attend, or allow Viserys to.

Thanks :)

[Justin Amey]

Ok I am new here on this R+L=J topic thing because I'm usually busy defending Aegon VI authenticity so I decided to weigh my comment on this very heated topic. Now before I say what I have to say, PLEASE no death threats (thank you)

Here I go.

I Believe that Jon really is Bastard son of Ned Stark! (no one is trying to kill me) Ok I'll continue.

I just don't see Ned Sacrificing his "honor" to a constantly bitter women if Jon Snow was Ned 's Nephew. That is just a waste. Ned could just easily pull Cat off to the side and say "Hey my sister gave birth with Rhaegar Targaryen to this boy before she died at the Tower of Joy and she made me promise to raise him as my own. So don't hate me or the boy, he is my nephew. Please don't inform Robert about him, he'll kill him for being part Targ, ok."

I know Cat is an understanding women, why in the world would bear a ridiculous burden, pissing off your wife in the process, for a nephew, unless that truly is isn't a nephew, but a Son.

As i said Please don't put a hit out on me :ph34r: :leaving: