R+L=J v.114

[sj4iy]

Ok I am new here on this R+L=J topic thing because I'm usually busy defending Aegon VI authenticity so I decided to weigh my comment on this very heated topic. Now before I say what I have to say, PLEASE no death threats (thank you)

Here I go.

I Believe that Jon really is Bastard son of Ned Stark! (no one is trying to kill me) Ok I'll continue.

I just don't see Ned Sacrificing his "honor" to a constantly bitter women if Jon Snow was Ned 's Nephew. That is just a waste. Ned could just easily pull Cat off to the side and say "Hey my sister gave birth with Rhaegar Targaryen to this boy before she died at the Tower of Joy and she made me promise to raise him as my own. So don't hate me or the boy, he is my nephew. Please don't inform Robert about him, he'll kill him for being part Targ, ok."

I know Cat is an understanding women, why in the world would bear a ridiculous burden, pissing off your wife in the process, for a nephew, unless that truly is isn't a nephew, but a Son.

As i said Please don't put a hit out on me :ph34r: :leaving:

Paraphrased from Ned's POV:

"Some secrets are too dangerous to tell."

He doesn't just not tell Cat- he doesn't tell anyone. Not even Jon.

If Jon were his son, what is keeping Ned from telling him who his mother was?

Not jumping on you, just asking.

[Justin Amey]

Paraphrased from Ned's POV:

"Some secrets are too dangerous to tell."

He doesn't just not tell Cat- he doesn't tell anyone. Not even Jon.

If Jon were his son, what is keeping Ned from telling him who his mother was?

Not jumping on you, just asking.

Shame.!!! Having a Bastard son that looks more like you than your own legit children would make you feel some type of way

Cat was kinda force on him in the wake of his brother's demise. He did have a well off life fostered in the Vale.

Hell maybe Cat knows the girl.

It would be just as dangerous Not telling at least Cat then piss her off to the point that she might do something to the boy. She did wish the boy harm.

Love for the mother.

[sj4iy]

Shame.!!! Having a Bastard son that looks more like you than your own legit children would make you feel some type of way

Cat was kinda force on him in the wake of his brother's demise. He did have a well off life fostered in the Vale.

Hell maybe Cat knows the girl.

It would be just as dangerous Not telling at least Cat then piss her off to the point that she might do something to the boy. She did wish the boy harm.

Love for the mother.

None of those are reasons to not tell Jon who his mother was for nearly 15 years. If nothing else, he could have told Jon when he left for the Wall, or sent him a letter. There's absolutely no reason to hide it from him at that point since Jon couldn't have done anything about it. Cat doesn't come into it at all. It just doesn't make sense.

[Justin Amey]

None of those are reasons to not tell Jon who his mother was for nearly 15 years. If nothing else, he could have told Jon when he left for the Wall, or sent him a letter. There's absolutely no reason to hide it from him at that point since Jon couldn't have done anything about it. Cat doesn't come into it at all. It just doesn't make sense.

A nephew looking exactly like you and nothing like a unique looking father makes no since either.

[BearQueen87]

Ok I am new here on this R+L=J topic thing because I'm usually busy defending Aegon VI authenticity so I decided to weigh my comment on this very heated topic. Now before I say what I have to say, PLEASE no death threats (thank you)

Here I go.

I Believe that Jon really is Bastard son of Ned Stark! (no one is trying to kill me) Ok I'll continue.

I just don't see Ned Sacrificing his "honor" to a constantly bitter women if Jon Snow was Ned 's Nephew. That is just a waste. Ned could just easily pull Cat off to the side and say "Hey my sister gave birth with Rhaegar Targaryen to this boy before she died at the Tower of Joy and she made me promise to raise him as my own. So don't hate me or the boy, he is my nephew. Please don't inform Robert about him, he'll kill him for being part Targ, ok."

I know Cat is an understanding women, why in the world would bear a ridiculous burden, pissing off your wife in the process, for a nephew, unless that truly is isn't a nephew, but a Son.

As i said Please don't put a hit out on me :ph34r: :leaving:

Because some secrets are too important to tell, even to those you love. If Cat someday was forced to choose between her children and the Targaryen son of Rhaegar????

[BearQueen87]

A nephew looking exactly like you and nothing like a unique looking father makes no since either.

Jon doesn't look like Ned. Jon looks like Arya who looks like Lyanna. Everyone just associates Jon's look with the North but thinks that it must come from Ned.

ETA: there are many Targs who do not have the purple eyes and silver hair. For example, Rhaenys did not (Rhaegar's daughter)

[ser_pounce_the_true_king]

Not only that, should ned have promised lyanna not to tell anyone who jons real mother and father is, then he would be breaking that promise by telling cat, and we all know thats something honorable ned would never do.

[Kingmonkey]

A nephew looking exactly like you and nothing like a unique looking father makes no since either.

Jon and Arya are both pure Stark looks. If Arya's mother can have no noticeable influence on her looks, then so can Jon's father.

As for the Ned's honour question, simple enough.

Ned tells Cat, breaks promise to Lyanna. Bad.

Ned doesn't tell Cat, keeps secrets from wife. Bad.

Either way it's bad. That's why Ned's a bit emo. If he's going to screw his own honour one way or another, might as well make it the way that keeps Jon a little safer.

[Ygrain]

Not only that, should ned have promised lyanna not to tell anyone who jons real mother and father is, then he would be breaking that promise by telling cat, and we all know thats something honorable ned would never do.

This is definitely a thing that would keep Ned from telling, a deathbed wish is doubly binding.

Furthermore: doesn't know, doesn't tell. You can never predict all circumstances, and there indeed may occur a situation when Cat might slip. At one moment, Ned asks himself what she would do if it was Jon's life against the lives of her own children, and he doesn't know the answer - he doesn't want to know.

Cat perceives Jon as a threat to her own children. Finding out that he is a Targaryen, a son of Rhaegar, doesn't lessen the threat but magnifies it a hundredfold. By harbouring him, Ned is actively committing treason and endangering his whole house. Cat would want him gone even more than she normally does. By remaining silent, she would also become complicit. She would be burdened by the secret which Ned felt was only his to bear.

[Justin Amey]

Jon doesn't look like Ned. Jon looks like Arya who looks like Lyanna. Everyone just associates Jon's look with the North but thinks that it must come from Ned.

ETA: there are many Targs who do not have the purple eyes and silver hair. For example, Rhaenys did not (Rhaegar's daughter)

I'm looking at the ASOIAF official wiki and it says he has more Stark-like features than any of his siblings. If you don't believe that than........... :dunno: :dunno: :dunno:

Also it hasn't been described what Rhaenys Eyes are just her skin and hair. They may have been purple we don't know.

Not only that, should ned have promised lyanna not to tell anyone who jons real mother and father is, then he would be breaking that promise by telling cat, and we all know thats something honorable ned would never do.

[Ygrain]

That's why one shouldn't take the wiki as a primary source. The original quote is "he looked more like Ned than any of the trueborn sons she bore him".

[Justin Amey]

Jon and Arya are both pure Stark looks. If Arya's mother can have no noticeable influence on her looks, then so can Jon's father.

As for the Ned's honour question, simple enough.

Ned tells Cat, breaks promise to Lyanna. Bad.

Ned doesn't tell Cat, keeps secrets from wife. Bad.

Either way it's bad. That's why Ned's a bit emo. If he's going to screw his own honour one way or another, might as well make it the way that keeps Jon a little safer.

but what worse, breaking promise to dead Lyanna or keeping the promise making him so unconformable that his place to go is the Wall?

[Ygrain]

but what worse, breaking promise to dead Lyanna or keeping the promise making him so unconformable that his place to go is the Wall?

Jon grew up along with his trueborn siblings, had the manners and education of a little lordling, and had a loving father. He had a pretty sheltered, privileged life, as is perfectly shown when he has a reality check on the Wall. Not having a mother and Cat being cold and distanced were the only low points in the first fourteen years of his life. He was not miserable or uncomfortable. Besides, Ned's own brother was on the Wall.

And, yes, Mr my-life-is-not-so-precious wouldn't have broken such a promise, definitely for no less than Jon's very life under a direct threat.

[King Tyrion XX]

A nephew looking exactly like you and nothing like a unique looking father makes no since either.

I agree with that. Not a hint of Targ gene.

[Jehane]

As for the reveal: Thanks for your answers - I think that Howland Reed is a possible candidate, or Bran's visions. Since visions are being taken very seriously (just read the part in which Sansa tells Jeyne about her dream of Joffrey killing a white stag, stating that dreams and visions are not brushed aside lightly), I think visions as strong as Bran's won't be neglected but taken seriously.

As to why Ned would sacrifice his honour by lying to Cat: He made a promise to Lyanna. He could either break that promise and tell his wife about Jon's parents (which would put Jon in potential danger) or he can continue lying to everybody in order to keep his promise to Lyanna and to protect Jon. Either way is dishonourable but pretty much everything is dishonourable in Ned's point of view. He puts honour above everything else. I don't think there's even the slightest chance that he would cheat on his wife; even Robert says so in an earlier chapter - something along the lines "She must have been very Special to make Ned Stark forget his honour".

[TGO]

In my honest opinion i think the whole R+L=J thing is a little absurd and unneccesary. If he really were part targaryen would he not have blue eyes considering both families (Stark AND Targaryen) are described to have blue eyes or in the Targaryen case from Blue to Purple. Jon has brown eyes if i'm not mistaken. I do believe he is Ned's bastard or if he isn't i highly doubt he is part Targaryen.

My opinion on Jon is a little bias since i dislike the character and believe him to basically be that typical good guy (pre aDwD) who isn't really all that interesting. If anything i found Ygritte and Melissandre to be more fascinating characters in the Nights Watch / Beyond the wall storylines. Getting to the point, if there has to be another Targaryen i'd rather they be another character.

[Ygrain]

I agree with that. Not a hint of Targ gene.

And not a hint of Stark gene in Robb, Sansa, Bran and Rickon, right?

In my honest opinion i think the whole R+L=J thing is a little absurd and unneccesary. If he really were part targaryen would he not have blue eyes considering both families (Stark AND Targaryen) are described to have blue eyes or in the Targaryen case from Blue to Purple. Jon has brown eyes if i'm not mistaken. I do believe he is Ned's bastard or if he isn't i highly doubt he is part Targaryen.

My opinion on Jon is a little bias since i dislike the character and believe him to basically be that typical good guy (pre aDwD) who isn't really all that interesting. If anything i found Ygritte and Melissandre to be more fascinating characters in the Nights Watch / Beyond the wall storylines. Getting to the point, if there has to be another Targaryen i'd rather they be another character.

You are mistaken, I am afraid. Starks have grey eyes (and brown hair), and Jon has eyes so dark grey that they look black.

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

I agree with that. Not a hint of Targ gene.

One might say the same of Baelor Breakspear

[TGO]

And not a hint of Stark gene in Robb, Sansa, Bran and Rickon, right?

You are mistaken, I am afraid. Starks have grey eyes (and brown hair), and Jon has eyes so dark grey that they look black.

Ah okay, thanks for clearing that up; it's been awhile since i read book one and i tend to forget several things. Either way i stand by the rest of my points. I think Jon (if he is going to be in tWoW) has got plenty to do and really think it'd be a cop-out just so fangirls can go crazy if he magically is a Targaryen and has a claim to the throne. I think out of all of the characters the ones who've worked hard from the beginning to have the throne are Stannis, Dany (though she's made plenty of mistakes), Littlefinger and Cersei (i mean to hold onto it while as-well making bad decisions). While (f)Aegon could still end up on it i doubt that's going to happen. I'm not sure how to think of the Greyjoys. I'm hoping Stoneheart also gets a few good moments in the game of thrones instead of just murdering Freys.

[Ygrain]

Ah okay, thanks for clearing that up; it's been awhile since i read book one and i tend to forget several things. Either way i stand by the rest of my points. I think Jon (if he is going to be in tWoW) has got plenty to do and really think it'd be a cop-out just so fangirls can go crazy if he magically is a Targaryen and has a claim to the throne. I think out of all of the characters the ones who've worked hard from the beginning to have the throne are Stannis, Dany (though she's made plenty of mistakes), Littlefinger and Cersei (i mean to hold onto it while as-well making bad decisions). While (f)Aegon could still end up on it i doubt that's going to happen. I'm not sure how to think of the Greyjoys. I'm hoping Stoneheart also gets a few good moments in the game of thrones instead of just murdering Freys.

Eh... it might be best if you leave out that fangirl part, lots of us are long past that age and not really that fond of Jon. May I suggest that you take a look at the links in the reference guide on the first page of the thread, to adress the specific issues that have brought people to the conclusion that R+L=J?