R+L=J v.114

[Jehane]

Mind you, I'm not a fan of Jon either; in fact, he's one of my least favourite characters. But I do think that R + L = J is very plausible and that there are some valid points supporting that theory. I don't like the idea of Jon ending up on the Iron Throne with Dany but I think it's a very likely scenario - if Jon stays alive/is brought back to life, that is. I'd be totally comfortable with him being dead by the beginning of Winds.

[Rhaegal Targaryen]

And not a hint of Stark gene in Robb, Sansa, Bran and Rickon, right?

You are mistaken, I am afraid. Starks have grey eyes (and brown hair), and Jon has eyes so dark grey that they look BLACK.

cough''cough''Rhaegar''cough''cough''.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Just wanted to say that Jon's not going to be dead in the beginning of Winds, if he was then Martin could have easily ended Dance by saying he was dead. ;)

In fact, he has this thing where he makes you think his characters are potentially mortally injured, but then they're pretty much fine (not that I'm saying Jon's going be immediately fine at the beginning of Winds).

Here's a post on that: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/98042-winds-of-winter-jon-snow-theory/#entry5031382

So, 17 cases of a PoV character dying at the end of their chapter. Five of them at the end of the book. All presently alive and back in action, except Jon.

...because it was the last book, of course. :D

If some people are hoping he's dead, they're really wasting their energy here. Needless to say, he's not found out who his parents were yet, and he will, so he really can't be gone.

[BearQueen87]

I'm looking at the ASOIAF official wiki and it says he has more Stark-like features than any of his siblings. If you don't believe that than........... :dunno: :dunno: :dunno:

Also it hasn't been described what Rhaenys Eyes are just her skin and hair. They may have been purple we don't know.

Yes it has. She has the Dornish look, just like her mother. Dark hair and dark eyes.

And if that's enough: the crown prince Baelor Breakspear was also dark haired and dark eyed. Queen Alysanna had blue eyes. There are more.

[sj4iy]

A nephew looking exactly like you and nothing like a unique looking father makes no since either.

Jon looks like his mother. My son looks exactly like me, and nothing like his father. Are you going to tell he that he isn't my son?

[BearQueen87]

I agree with that. Not a hint of Targ gene.

Except that he's a lot of like Rhaegar--dutiful, considerate. And he does everything well (according to Cat) just like Rhaegar who did everything well (according to Selmy). He also has his nose according to the graphic comics.

Ah okay, thanks for clearing that up; it's been awhile since i read book one and i tend to forget several things. Either way i stand by the rest of my points. I think Jon (if he is going to be in tWoW) has got plenty to do and really think it'd be a cop-out just so fangirls can go crazy if he magically is a Targaryen and has a claim to the throne. I think out of all of the characters the ones who've worked hard from the beginning to have the throne are Stannis, Dany (though she's made plenty of mistakes), Littlefinger and Cersei (i mean to hold onto it while as-well making bad decisions). While (f)Aegon could still end up on it i doubt that's going to happen. I'm not sure how to think of the Greyjoys. I'm hoping Stoneheart also gets a few good moments in the game of thrones instead of just murdering Freys.

Could we not call us fan girls? Jon's not even my favorite character--he' s like #4 at this point. But it's not about being a fan. It's about critical analysis and looking at the text. GRRM put all the clues there, long before there were girls to do the fanning.

[sj4iy]

Ah okay, thanks for clearing that up; it's been awhile since i read book one and i tend to forget several things. Either way i stand by the rest of my points. I think Jon (if he is going to be in tWoW) has got plenty to do and really think it'd be a cop-out just so fangirls can go crazy if he magically is a Targaryen and has a claim to the throne. I think out of all of the characters the ones who've worked hard from the beginning to have the throne are Stannis, Dany (though she's made plenty of mistakes), Littlefinger and Cersei (i mean to hold onto it while as-well making bad decisions). While (f)Aegon could still end up on it i doubt that's going to happen. I'm not sure how to think of the Greyjoys. I'm hoping Stoneheart also gets a few good moments in the game of thrones instead of just murdering Freys.

Your "point" does nothing at all to disprove the fact that Jon is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. What you "like" or "dislike" doesn't come into it at all. Martin wrote what he wrote without any reference to you or anyone else.

And there would be nothing "magic" about Jon being a Targaryen. Pretty sure his parents did it the old fashioned way. And the text certainly supports that.

[Alia of the knife]

Ok I am new here on this R+L=J topic thing because I'm usually busy defending Aegon VI authenticity so I decided to weigh my comment on this very heated topic. Now before I say what I have to say, PLEASE no death threats (thank you)

Here I go.

I Believe that Jon really is Bastard son of Ned Stark! (no one is trying to kill me) Ok I'll continue.

I just don't see Ned Sacrificing his "honor" to a constantly bitter women if Jon Snow was Ned 's Nephew. That is just a waste. Ned could just easily pull Cat off to the side and say "Hey my sister gave birth with Rhaegar Targaryen to this boy before she died at the Tower of Joy and she made me promise to raise him as my own. So don't hate me or the boy, he is my nephew. Please don't inform Robert about him, he'll kill him for being part Targ, ok."

I know Cat is an understanding women, why in the world would bear a ridiculous burden, pissing off your wife in the process, for a nephew, unless that truly is isn't a nephew, but a Son.

As i said Please don't put a hit out on me :ph34r: :leaving:

Plausible deniability, a political strategy used even now.

If it did come out, the only ones that suffer is Ned, the Tullys get the wardship of the children, and they along with Cat can scream all day long the Starks were nothing but trouble from day one.

[Erudain]

Remember remember....

"“I will,” Ned had promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he’d made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he’d paid to keep them.

If Ned promised not to tell anyone....it means no one, zero, nada...

[Alia of the knife]

There is a picture of my grandmother holding me as an infant. On my moms side, there is a lot of Native American, so imagine this photo of this woman with dark skin, dark eyes and straight black hair holding a pale, blue eyed baby with fire-engine, red hair. :shocked:

My husbands mothers family is from the Czech Republic, but his father from Virginia and Scottish, but all anyone can say about him is that he looks like Wayne Greztsky, (who is actually Ukranian). :blink:

So Jon can look like his mother but leave nothing of the father to show for it. B)

[UVA]

I Believe that Jon really is Bastard son of Ned Stark! (no one is trying to kill me) Ok I'll continue.

I just don't see Ned Sacrificing his "honor" to a constantly bitter women if Jon Snow was Ned 's Nephew. That is just a waste. Ned could just easily pull Cat off to the side and say "Hey my sister gave birth with Rhaegar Targaryen to this boy before she died at the Tower of Joy and she made me promise to raise him as my own. So don't hate me or the boy, he is my nephew. Please don't inform Robert about him, he'll kill him for being part Targ, ok."

I know Cat is an understanding women, why in the world would bear a ridiculous burden, pissing off your wife in the process, for a nephew, unless that truly is isn't a nephew, but a Son.

Well, I wouldn't worry about the R+L=J gestapo just yet. ;) We're nice people, I promise.

Speaking to why Ned never told Cat the truth, his blackout on all matters regarding Jon is perhaps one of the more prominent clues pointing to Jon as R&L's son. In refusing to tell Cat, Ned risks alienating his new wife but this is really the lesser of two evils for Ned's aim is to 1) uphold his promise to Lyanna to protect and raise Jon, while 2) keeping his family safe from the potential fall out if Jon's parentage should ever come to light. By harboring Jon, Ned is essentially an enemy of the state, therefore not telling Cat is both prudent and merciful.

Ask yourself that in terms of Ned's character, what other motive would he have to witthold information re. Jon from Cat? Why create a difficult situation within the Stark household if Jon was just Ned's bastard? Because Ned's an ass? No, Ned's silence and unfair treatment of Cat was dictated by the political gravity of Jon's identity.

[Ygrain]

And there would be nothing "magic" about Jon being a Targaryen. Pretty sure his parents did it the old fashioned way. And the text certainly supports that.

"But, Rhae-Rhae, you promised me a dragasm!"

[Alia of the knife]

"But, Rhae-Rhae, you promised me a dragasm!"

EEEEEEuuuuwwwwwww, :laugh: :laugh:

[Ser Leftwich]

As for the reveal: Thanks for your answers - I think that Howland Reed is a possible candidate, or Bran's visions. Since visions are being taken very seriously (just read the part in which Sansa tells Jeyne about her dream of Joffrey killing a white stag, stating that dreams and visions are not brushed aside lightly), I think visions as strong as Bran's won't be neglected but taken seriously.

"It would have been unkind to say so, however, so Sansa took a sip of milk and changed the subject. “I had a dream that Joffrey would be the one to take the white hart,” she said. It had been more of a wish, actually, but it sounded better to call it a dream. Everyone knew that dreams were prophetic. White harts were supposed to be very rare and magical, and in her heart she knew her gallant prince was worthier than his drunken father." AGoT p. 474

Sansa herself even says it is a wish, not a dream. Would not put much credence in this 'vision' of Sansa's.

[BearQueen87]

"But, Rhae-Rhae, you promised me a dragasm!"

AHHAHAHAHAHAH

[UnmaskedLurker]

Jon and Arya are both pure Stark looks. If Arya's mother can have no noticeable influence on her looks, then so can Jon's father.

As for the Ned's honour question, simple enough.

Ned tells Cat, breaks promise to Lyanna. Bad.

Ned doesn't tell Cat, keeps secrets from wife. Bad.

Either way it's bad. That's why Ned's a bit emo. If he's going to screw his own honour one way or another, might as well make it the way that keeps Jon a little safer.

Keep in mind that we know that Ned is keeping a secret from Cat--and she knows there is a secret as well. She tries to get information regarding who is Jon's mother, and Ned gets angry and tells Cat never to bring the subject up again. So obviously Ned is willing to keep a secret from Cat--that is not in dispute. We even know that the secret is regarding the identity of Jon's mother. Why is it harder to believe the secret would be that Lyanna is the mother rather than that Wylla/Ashara/Fisherwoman/Etc. is the mother? To me, it seems like the need to keep this information secret if the answer is Lyanna is stronger than any of the alternatives.

[JonSnow4President]

Jon looks like his mother. My son looks exactly like me, and nothing like his father. Are you going to tell he that he isn't my son?

Well, I guess the extension of the argument would be that he isn't your husband's.

[Ygrain]

Well, I guess the extension of the argument would be that he isn't your husband's.

Parthenogenesis was old even when Zeus pulled the trick :P

[sj4iy]

Well, I guess the extension of the argument would be that he isn't your husband's.

Well, the original argument was that he had to be Ned's son (and not Lyanna and Rhaegar's) since he looked like Ned. The obvious conclusion is that he looks like his mother, who also had the Stark looks...but apparently, that's not possible.

Basically, a child can:

1. Look exactly like one parent

2. Look exactly like the other parent

3. Look like a mix of both parents

4. Or not look like either parent

"Looking Targaryen" has already been proven in the books to not be a requirement for BEING a Targaryen, I guess is my ultimate point. I don't know why people keep using it as a metric when we have a lot of other examples of Targaryens who don't have the Valyrian look.

[J. Stargaryen]

There is a picture of my grandmother holding me as an infant. On my moms side, there is a lot of Native American, so imagine this photo of this woman with dark skin, dark eyes and straight black hair holding a pale, blue eyed baby with fire-engine, red hair. :shocked:

My husbands mothers family is from the Czech Republic, but his father from Virginia and Scottish, but all anyone can say about him is that he looks like Wayne Greztsky, (who is actually Ukranian). :blink:

So Jon can look like his mother but leave nothing of the father to show for it. B)

Wayne Gretzky's paternal grandparents were ethnic Polish. :)