What the hell did happen at Summerhall?

[complexphoenix]

The Barristan quote doesn't imply that treason occurred at Summerhall.

"And because that unlikely monarch had followed his heart when he chose his queen, he allowed his sons to have their way, making bitter enemies when he might have made fast friends. Treason and turmoil followed, as night follows day, ending at Summerhall in sorcery, fire and grief."

The "treason and turmoil" refers to the Laughing Storm's rebellion and the refusal of the lords to accept Egg's reforms. That in turn made Egg desperate for dragons, which led to Summerhall. I think that is what the quote means, not that Summerhall itself was treason.

[Bael's Bastard]

I agree. Before TWOIAF I interpreted the treason to include Summerhall. I still personally think Summerhall was intentional. But I don't think Barristan has any inside scoop, and I don't think Summerhall is believed to have been treason. I think Barristan was referring to the Laughing Storm, and perhaps some other things throughout Egg's reign.

[The Amethyst Empress]

If Egg turns out to be a wannabe baby killer I will be crushed.

Something went wrong with the ritual and they all burned...

[BearQueen87]

If Egg turns out to be a wannabe baby killer I will be crushed.

Something went wrong with the ritual and they all burned...

Or something went "right" since Rhaegar was born, the metaphorical dragon. I think what went "wrong" was the misinterpretation of GoHH's prophecy about bringing a dragon back into the world.

[Lord Varys]

Things are really confused here:

1. There are no hints whatsoever that Egg became mad.

2. Egg did not want to restore the dragons because he had dreams. He wanted to restore them because he felt he needed them to continue his reforms.

3. Egg did, apparently, not care about the promised prince prophecy or anything like that. He did not approve of Jaehaerys' decision to marry Aerys to Rhaella, which pretty much suggests that he did not believe in the prophecy of the Ghost of High Heart.

4. Egg dreamed to the return of literal dragons - at least that's the way Yandel is presenting it in the story. I don't see how else Egg should interpret dreams in which literal dragons are flying in the sky over Westeros. That's pretty straightforward in my opinion.

[Mr Fixit]

3. Egg did, apparently, not care about the promised prince prophecy or anything like that. He did not approve of Jaehaerys' decision to marry Aerys to Rhaella, which pretty much suggests that he did not believe in the prophecy of the Ghost of High Heart.

Or maybe he subscribed to a different interpretation of her prophecies? Though this one seems straightforward enough...

[BearQueen87]

Things are really confused here:

1. There are no hints whatsoever that Egg became mad.

2. Egg did not want to restore the dragons because he had dreams. He wanted to restore them because he felt he needed them to continue his reforms.

3. Egg did, apparently, not care about the promised prince prophecy or anything like that. He did not approve of Jaehaerys' decision to marry Aerys to Rhaella, which pretty much suggests that he did not believe in the prophecy of the Ghost of High Heart.

4. Egg dreamed to the return of literal dragons - at least that's the way Yandel is presenting it in the story. I don't see how else Egg should interpret dreams in which literal dragons are flying in the sky over Westeros. That's pretty straightforward in my opinion.

I don't think Egg was mad and I don't think he cared about TPTWP or anything. But he does care about dragons (of the lizard kind). And when a woods witch tells you that a dragon will be reborn into the world, then you make it happen--the problem is that the dragon was not of the flying kind. Misinterpretation of mystical prophecy/advice.

[The Amethyst Empress]

Or something went "right" since Rhaegar was born, the metaphorical dragon. I think what went "wrong" was the misinterpretation of GoHH's prophecy about bringing a dragon back into the world.

By "wrong" I mean that fire got out of control...I have no idea about the rest

I wish GRRM would tell us already :frown5:

[BearQueen87]

By "wrong" I mean that fire got out of control...I have no idea about the rest

I wish GRRM would tell us already :frown5:

Me too, me too.

[Hrafntýr]

Back to the OP. What happened? Magic had not returned in the time of Summerhall and that is why the eggs did not hatch. Daenerys had magic on her side. Across the world, spells are easier to replicate, glass candles are burning, etc.

As far as the events go. This is my opinion on what happened.

It is well known that Aegon V became obsessed with dragons. With the kingdom crumbling around him due to the events described in TWoIaF, Aegon decided he MUST try to hatch the dragon eggs. He may have read something to make him believe it would work, he may have dreamed it, believing that he had a green-dream, or someone convinced him he would succeed.

But since this is Egg, or a grown up version of our beloved Egg...he tried to take all precautions while attempting to hatch the eggs. Or Ser Duncan convinced him to take extra precautions....either or.

A part of Dunk's dream in The Sworn Sword helped me come to this theory.

Spoiler

The spade slipped from Dunk’s hands. “Egg,” he cried, “run! We have to run! ” But the sands were giving way beneath their feet. When the boy tried to scramble from the hole, its crumbling sides gave way and collapsed. Dunk saw the sands wash over Egg, burying him as he opened his mouth to shout. He tried to fight his way to him, but the sands were rising all around him, pulling him down into the grave, filling his mouth, his nose, his eyes . . .

Because Wildfire would be involved, this Summerhall ceremony would take place in an area designed similar to the area where Wildfire is made at Kings Landing described in ACoK, Chapter 20 (Tyrion V).

If, at Summerhall, the Wildfire gets out of hand and starts to spread...but the floor above didn't give way fully and sand only trickled into the room below...this would look similar to an hour glass. The fire began to spread...Ser Duncan the Tall is able to get some to safety. He went back for Aegon...who, in the madness of the moment, actually believes it is working and the eggs are hatching OR decides to rescue the eggs OR simply falls into the sand which is draining into the room below...and true to Duncan's honor, Dunk tries to save Egg...and their end is what was described in Dunk's dream in TSS.

That's really interesting, Ser Cold Fingers! I don't think I've ever seen that sand connection noted.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Things are really confused here:

1. There are no hints whatsoever that Egg became mad.

2. Egg did not want to restore the dragons because he had dreams. He wanted to restore them because he felt he needed them to continue his reforms.

I don't believe he was mad however it was stated that the dreams played a role in the idea of him trying to hatch dragons. Aemon even stated that dragon dreams killed his brothers.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Well if it was the bodies of Rhaego, Drogo and Mirri Maz that bought back the dragons (blood for fire and all that) then I'd say lil Rhaegars a goner.

[Lord Varys]

All we know the Ghost prophesied was that the promised prince would be born from the line of Aerys and Rhaella. As far as I remember we don't know she had anything to do with Summerhall or Egg's intention to hatch dragon eggs there. It seems as if his own dreams compared with his desire to have dragons to back his reforms suffice as explanations. He does not need to have another motivation.

If the Ghost's visions/prophecies are always as precise as they seem to be she would have foreseen what occurred at Summerhall, I assume. That is why my guess is she was either not consulted or did not investigate the whole affair. Perhaps she was not even there.

I'm pretty sure the prophecy she gave Jaehaerys was something like Maggy's fortune-telling, not something she would have found out on her own. Jaehaerys went to her and asked her either about the promised prince or the fate of his children etc.

[BearQueen87]

All we know the Ghost prophesied was that the promised prince would be born from the line of Aerys and Rhaella. As far as I remember we don't know she had anything to do with Summerhall or Egg's intention to hatch dragon eggs there. It seems as if his own dreams compared with his desire to have dragons to back his reforms suffice as explanations. He does not need to have another motivation.

If the Ghost's visions/prophecies are always as precise as they seem to be she would have foreseen what occurred at Summerhall, I assume. That is why my guess is she was either not consulted or did not investigate the whole affair. Perhaps she was not even there.

I'm pretty sure the prophecy she gave Jaehaerys was something like Maggy's fortune-telling, not something she would have found out on her own. Jaehaerys went to her and asked her either about the promised prince or the fate of his children etc.

Good point, though given that the GoHH tasted grief at Summerhall and then (I think) you can make a case that she might have spoke to Rhaegar again at some point, I'd say she has some sort of involvement. But even if it was a dream of dragons, we can still say that Aegon interpreted it wrong. He thought this dream of dragons meant literal ones, not a metaphorical Targ prine.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

That's really interesting, Ser Cold Fingers! I don't think I've ever seen that sand connection noted.

Thank you!

I just happened to think about it after reading ACoK & ASoS for the second time.

[WardofWinterfell]

It's all about the last line in the maester's note "if not for the valor of the lord commander"

Dunk did something, it most likely was to save Rhaella but why not just say that? There really is no mystery behind that.

That has been my favorite line in the World Book so far. It adds to the mystery to the events of Summerhall, cuts to the heart of Ser Duncan's charcter, and is foreshadowing of how tragic this story will unfold when it's finally told. It also adds a bit of theatrical romance to the whole Dunk and Egg relationship. It shows that they did have a deep fondness for each other, even to the very end and into death.

[Lord Varys]

Well, my guess is that Egg's dragon dreams did not come with a date reading 'occurs in your life time'. My guess is that he saw Dany's dragons after their return to Westeros (or even the descendants of those dragons), and thought he could/should bring them back.

It would really be a stretch to assume that Egg of all people would confuse literal and metaphorical dragons, as he was there when two dreamers had prophetical dreams about 'metaphorical dragons'.

I'm also inclined to believe that the Ghost was there, as Jenny was there, too. But this does not believe that she was involved in the ritual or advised Egg. Although Egg could have dismissed her prophecies, as he did dismiss her prophecy about the promised prince. On the other hand, would Jenny and Jaehaerys/Aerys/Rhaella have been there, if the Ghost had had a vision warning her about what would happen?

Really difficult to say. Best thing would be to go with 'she did not know for some reason'. I think this also fits her grief, as she seems to blame herself for what happened - or rather that she did not foresee or prevent it...

[Dragon Roast]

We only know that the Targ King egg aka Aegon V gathered many members of his family at Summerhall and tried to hatch dragons by means of magic.

Noone survived the act and Summerhall is a burned ruin now.

Daenerys on the other hand succeded.

What went wrong and who told Aegon V to experiment with magic in the first place?

Actually, we only know that "Aegon V gathered many members of his family at Summerhall" and that there was a tragedy and that most of them died.

When it come to the idea of a magic ritual gone wrong, all we have is speculation. There is zero evidence that this was the case.

We know from the World Book that Egg wanted to learn the lost secrets about how to hatch a dragon. We know how Dany hatch hers through blood magic, but we also know that for years a dragon egg was given to every Targ child to sleep with and that many and more of these eggs hatched without the need for a blood sacrifice. The notions that Egg was planning to kill any of his kin to "hatch a dragon" are just nutty speculation in my view. As anything is possible, a magical ritual of some kind that went horribly wrong could have been behind the tragedy, but I don't think so.

Take a look at the fragment from Gyldayn:

...pyromancers...

... wild fire ...

control ... towering ... burned so hot that ...

... died, but for the valor of the Lord Comman ...

Egg was searching the world for lore on how to hatch dragon eggs, so he would know that wild fire and pyromancers would have nothing to do with it. Especially considering the fate of the brother he hated. Egg would know that Wild Fire was a useless trick. And yet, many assume that wild fire was at the heart of the "magic" Aegon V was using to hatch dragons. I just can't buy that as credible. Other than the idea that dragons support all magic in general, the text has never made a a credible suggestion that wild fire could be a useful tool when it comes to hatching a dragon egg. And the tricks of a pyromancer are just that--tricks.

OTOH, wild fire would be a great way to cover-up a crime scene. That and many other clues lead me to believe that the Tragedy at Summerhall was a political murder covered up by a fire and a tale of magic gone wrong. According to the World Book, by the time of Summerhall, Egg had many enemies among the elite of Westeros and the Blackfryes were getting ready to launch yet another attack. If you set aside notions of magic there are plenty of possible suspect.

My favorites are Tywin, Pycelle and Aerys. Each had means, motive and opportunity. And such a conspiracy would explain much and more about the odd relationship between the three over the years. If Egg had lived, Aerys would not have sat the IT for a very long time--possibly never. And Tywin would never had been allowed to commit his campaign of genocide in the Westerlands. No way that Egg would let the petulant psycho teenage son of one of his liege Lords get away with mass murder. If Egg lived, the singers would never have sung about the Rains of Castamere. But Egg died. Jaehaerys took the throne and suddenly died just months after Tywin completed his campaign of death (well before he could act as his father might have acted).

Tywin's boyhood pal Aerys became the King. Instead of punishing him as his Father or Grandfather might have done, Aerys made Tywin his Hand. And the rest--as they say--is history.

[Morgul-Blade]

I hope it bears some significance, or at least some irony with Dany's dragons.

[complexphoenix]

Actually, we only know that "Aegon V gathered many members of his family at Summerhall" and that there was a tragedy and that most of them died.

When it come to the idea of a magic ritual gone wrong, all we have is speculation. There is zero evidence that this was the case.

We know from the World Book that Egg wanted to learn the lost secrets about how to hatch a dragon. We know how Dany hatch hers through blood magic, but we also know that for years a dragon egg was given to every Targ child to sleep with and that many and more of these eggs hatched without the need for a blood sacrifice. The notions that Egg was planning to kill any of his kin to "hatch a dragon" are just nutty speculation in my view. As anything is possible, a magical ritual of some kind that went horribly wrong could have been behind the tragedy, but I don't think so.

Take a look at the fragment from Gyldayn:

Egg was searching the world for lore on how to hatch dragon eggs, so he would know that wild fire and pyromancers would have nothing to do with it. Especially considering the fate of the brother he hated. Egg would know that Wild Fire was a useless trick. And yet, many assume that wild fire was at the heart of the "magic" Aegon V was using to hatch dragons. I just can't buy that as credible. Other than the idea that dragons support all magic in general, the text has never made a a credible suggestion that wild fire could be a useful tool when it comes to hatching a dragon egg. And the tricks of a pyromancer are just that--tricks.

OTOH, wild fire would be a great way to cover-up a crime scene. That and many other clues lead me to believe that the Tragedy at Summerhall was a political murder covered up by a fire and a tale of magic gone wrong. According to the World Book, by the time of Summerhall, Egg had many enemies among the elite of Westeros and the Blackfryes were getting ready to launch yet another attack. If you set aside notions of magic there are plenty of possible suspect.

My favorites are Tywin, Pycelle and Aerys. Each had means, motive and opportunity. And such a conspiracy would explain much and more about the odd relationship between the three over the years. If Egg had lived, Aerys would not have sat the IT for a very long time--possibly never. And Tywin would never had been allowed to commit his campaign of genocide in the Westerlands. No way that Egg would let the petulant psycho teenage son of one of his liege Lords get away with mass murder. If Egg lived, the singers would never have sung about the Rains of Castamere. But Egg died. Jaehaerys took the throne and suddenly died just months after Tywin completed his campaign of death (well before he could act as his father might have acted).

Tywin's boyhood pal Aerys became the King. Instead of punishing him as his Father or Grandfather might have done, Aerys made Tywin his Hand. And the rest--as they say--is history.

There's more to Gyldayn's fragment than you quoted.

"...the blood of the dragon gathered in one...

...seven eggs, to honor the seven gods, though the king's own septon had warned..."

Followed by the portion you quoted.

This is pretty clear evidence that Aegon was, in fact, hoping to hatch dragons. A political murder might have been carried out, using the hatching attempt as coverup, but there was clearly a hatching attempt. It's not either/or. There may have been both murder and attempted magic.