Anyone let down by Andal and First Men history?

[Mr Fixit]

I'll be honest: maybe I forgot and/or missed/misconstrued something in the main series of novels. If so, I apologise.

On to my beef. I always imagined the coming of the Andals as a huge change in the history of Westeros. First Men I thought of as relatively unsophisticated people. Not barbarians, mind you, far from it, but not terribly advanced either. Theirs were a bunch of petty kingdoms and lordships, their warriors were wielding bronze armor and weapons, their rituals and customs often primal and harsh (as evidenced in the North until recently). They didn't write all that much nor did they leave many written records.

When the Andals came, it was with iron and blood that they conquered much of the lands of the South. They brought iron, Faith of the Seven, letters and alphabets, a new social order that eventually evolved into feudalism of the present day. Some holdouts of the First Men remained, like Royces, Blackwoods, Brackens, and others. Gardeners, Lannisters, and Durrandons in some form as well, obviously, if only by name. They brought advanced learning, a science of sorts.

Only it turns out that was all pretty much my inaccurate impression. Andal invasion, except bringing the Seven, didn't change much at all. First Men apparently had some kind of feudal culture even before the Andals and all of the southern kingdoms except Dorne and Vale had already been established, alive and well for hundreds if not thousands of years. Regardless of the coming of these invaders from across the sea, hordes of First Men houses are still around - besides the aforementioned Brackens, Blackwoods, and Royces, we also have Tullys, Darrys, Mallisters, Redforts, Hunters, Belmores, Coldwaters, Plumms, Farmans, Reynes, Crakehalls, Baneforts, Hightowers, Redwynes, and countless others. What exactly are those Royces and Blackwoods in the books boasting of? Maesters and the Citadel also existed long before the Andals, apparently.

That's OK, I guess. My impressions, my problem. But in my view so much of the mystery and allure of that early time has utterly disappeared with this book. First Men are essentially Andals Open Beta that talk and walk pretty much the same. Except for the Seven and some early bloodshed, I can't really see anything significant about their coming; the continent barely changed. And that's a shame, especially when compared to the impressions and flavor I got from the brief Rhoynar entries and the way they changed and influenced Dorne.

[glamourweaver]

I do chose to imagine that the culture of the First Men pre-Andals was more clan based, and the Andal written histories (and later written histories by feudalized First Men in the North) put things more in the feudal cultural terms they recognized.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

The Royces boast because they have tangible proof of their heritage, a Royce was the first King of the Vale, they have their runic armour, they marry in to the 'purest' First Men great house the Starks keeping their line strong in First men cred, and they survived the Andals in the vale where so many did not.

The First Men weren't primitive, they were different and the perception of them is tainted by Andal institutions like Maesters and Septons. Who knows more, Pycelle or Bloodraven?

I hate this idea that once a First Man married an Andal their line was forever Andal and only related to the old house in name. You'd think only Andal genetics survived.

[AtomixIGN]

They changed a ton. Just because some houses of the first men intermarried or in the case of the Reach - managed to c domesticate the Andals - doesnt mean that after a few generations everything was changed. It was the difference between night and day

[Mr Fixit]

They changed a ton. Just because some houses of the first men intermarried or in the case of the Reach - managed to c domesticate the Andals - doesnt mean that after a few generations everything was changed. It was the difference between night and day

Okay. Point me to that "night and day" difference.

[glamourweaver]

The Royces boast because they have tangible proof of their heritage, a Royce was the first King of the Vale, they have their runic armour, they marry in to the 'purest' First Men great house the Starks keeping their line strong in First men cred, and they survived the Andals in the vale where so many did not.

The First Men weren't primitive, they were different and the perception of them is tainted by Andal institutions like Maesters and Septons. Who knows more, Pycelle or Bloodraven?

I hate this idea that once a First Man married an Andal their line was forever Andal and only related to the old house in name. You'd think only Andal genetics survived.

Yeah, when they talk about "Andal" Houses vs. "First Men" Houses, besides religion, what they generally mean is the "direct" male line. When you take the female lines into account, everyone is First Man, everyone is Andal, and everyone in-Dorne-at-least is also Rhoynar.

[AtomixIGN]

Knights, Steel Weapons, new technology, blonde people, and brand new National Faith - the latter of which created an entirely new social construction.

[glamourweaver]

Knights, Steel Weapons, new technology, blonde people, and brand new National Faith - the latter of which created an entirely new social construction.

Well, regardless of whatever Lann the Clever's personal origins may have been, there were a substantial number of culturally First Men blonds in the West before the Andals arrived.

[AtomixIGN]

I suppose you can easily marginalize all of the advances the world(this world) - the loom, the printing press, christianity, algebra, protestantism, astronomy ,

Before

Sky Blue, Water Wet, Women Lie

After

Sky Blue, Water Wet, Women lie.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Yeah, when they talk about "Andal" Houses vs. "First Men" Houses, besides religion, what they generally mean is the "direct" male line. When you take the female lines into account, everyone is First Man, everyone is Andal, and everyone in-Dorne-at-least is also Rhoynar.

Everyone says the Daynes are first men but with Dornish law they are unlikely to have gone straight down the male line. I consider it the line in general. No matter if you are man or woman you still only pass on 50%, so if the Lannisters are legit in their story, they are first men as the Lannister daughter was the 'heir' of the house. She passed her bloodline to her son the same way a man would.

I suppose you can easily marginalize all of the advances the world(this world) - the loom, the printing press, christianity, algebra, protestantism, astronomy ,

Before

Sky Blue, Water Wet, Women Lie

After

Sky Blue, Water Wet, Women lie.

Hey, Catholic here. I dont consider protestantism an advancement at all. 500 years of religious murders in my country, legal oppression too, advanced enough for you?

[glamourweaver]

Everyone says the Daynes are first men but with Dornish law they are unlikely to have gone straight down the male line. I consider it the line in general. No matter if you are man or woman you still only pass on 50%, so if the Lannisters are legit in their story, they are first men as the Lannister daughter was the 'heir' of the house. She passed her bloodline to her son the same way a man would.

Hey, Catholic here. I dont consider protestantism an advancement at all. 500 years of religious murders in my country, legal oppression too, advanced enough for you?

Yes, realistically that should be the case - but I'm talking about how the patriarchal culture that dominates most of Westeros uses those labels. As I specifically said in what you quoted, everyone is Andal-blooded, everyone is First-Man-blooded. Those labels are utterly meaningless to blood ties.

[Mr Fixit]

Knights, Steel Weapons, new technology, blonde people, and brand new National Faith - the latter of which created an entirely new social construction.

Blonde people? Seems there were plenty blonde people in the West before the Andals came.

New technology, I grant you. Iron (or steel, the book seems to contradict itself here), better stonework. But the social order seems to be almost the same. Compare with the Rhoynish influence in Dorne: now that's a difference! What huge cultural shift occurred in other southern kingdoms due to Andal influence? The most basic social structure--feudalism in this case--seems to be essentially the same! At least, that's how TWoIaF presents things.

But it's more than that. The only city in the entirety of the Seven Kingdoms (besides KL) that is of Andal origin seems to be White Harbor (and Manderlys also trace their descent to First Men). Everything else, Gulltown, Lannisport, Oldtown are large and prosperous before the coming of the Andals. An early Arryn king is said to have marveled at the beauty and size of Lannisport and Oldtown. Even the maesters and the Citadel, which I always thought were of Andal "bookish" origin, predate them by far.

Look at Europe before Greco-Roman times and during the height of Roman Empire. Look at its technology, social order, cities, everything. Or, go a thousand years later and compare the late Roman Empire with, say, late medieval period. The differences in the very way of life are dramatic. Yet the late First Men period and everything since then is almost identical, save for bronze/iron/steel, new gods and some new limited technologies.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Maesters taught, but the septas and septons bought words.

A new language, religion, method of warfare and new materials, those are huge things. Boats also.

We learnt which race many houses are/were.

I felt underwhelmed by the actual invasion though. It lacked detail in places.

I feel that there are jstu as many FM houses as there are Andals, and since the Andals invaded, there should be a lot more extinct houses. I felt like each house picked either FM or Andal out of a hat.

And to find out that the Reach, Westerlands and Stormlands were pretty much united was underwhelming. Besides in the Riverlands, we don't have much more evidence of this age of a Hundred Kings.

So the Durrandons, Gardeners and Lannisters had united kingdoms before the Andals, but the Andals split them into more kingdoms, but once again the Durrandons, Gardeners and Lannisters took over?

Gardeners I can understand as united, since the Reach houses descend from them anyway.

It was lacking in places. eVerytHGIN iS In ROONS Tho so No one nose!⁄!¡¡¡!!¡

Lemme reread.

[joluoto2]

Well regarding the Stormlands, the Reach and the Westerlands it seems instead of the old kingdoms falling, they made deals with the Andals to let them settle and spread their faith in exchange for peace. Whcih quickly lead to several First Men- Andal intermarriages. But that's the reason the old dynasties prevailed in these places.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Well regarding the Stormlands, the Reach and the Westerlands it seems instead of the old kingdoms falling, they made deals with the Andals to let them settle and spread their faith in exchange for peace. Whcih quickly lead to several First Men- Andal intermarriages. But that's the reason the old dynasties prevailed in these places.

The Gardeners did that yes, but the Lannisters fought at first, marride, and then fought again? Another wave of Andals?

The Durrandons fought extensively against Andals. I think Storms Land is the only reason they survived, as it was impregnable.

[joluoto2]

They all fought the Andals at first, even the Gardeners. In the Westerlands the kings Tyrion III and Gerold II arranged marriages with the Andal leaders and First Men Houses. And there were no new wave of Andals after this. The first Andal to rule the Rock: Ser Joffrey Lydden was crowned because the Lannisters were extinct on the male side, and ser Joffrey was married to the last Lannister king's daughter. He also took the name Lannister. So in the Westerlands there were first Andal invasion attempts, but the Andal takeover came through peace and marriages.

In the Stormlands peace came after generations of wars (according to stories the Stormlanders were aided by the Children of the Forest), where Andals who had established themselves there had sieged Storm's End several times without any luck. Peace came when king Maldon IV took a Andal wife, and his son Durran XXIV did the same.

[David C. Hunter]

Yes, realistically that should be the case - but I'm talking about how the patriarchal culture that dominates most of Westeros uses those labels. As I specifically said in what you quoted, everyone is Andal-blooded, everyone is First-Man-blooded. Those labels are utterly meaningless to blood ties.

I would be tempted to agree with you, but int he world of Westeros, it seems that blood ties is a real thing. Sure, realistically everyone should have Andal and First Men blood, but it seems like onlt eh descendants of the First Men are able to become skinchangers/wargs. By tht, I guess I mean, those Houses whose names are that of the First Men/Or have predominantly the most First Men Blood.

Because as far as I know, there have been no Andals who have had the abilities of skinchanging or greenssing. That is purely of those of the First Men. The fact that there seems to be less could be a testament to the fact that more Andal blood is seeping into the North. But I dont buy that because ALL of the Stark children are skinchangers, according to GRRM. In fact, it seems like those types of people are ON THE RISE.

So I dont buy the notion, at this point in time, "everyone has royl blood within them". That maybe true, but if their "name" isn't Stark, Targaryan, etc then it doesn't matter. You need the name, the seat, etc. All that plays into the magic of this world. (Maybe a part of a deal or something)

Why must there always be a Stark in Winterfell? Whenever the Starks are facing a turmoil, they are literally almost paranoid about always having a Stark in Winterfell. I believe Catelyn says to Robb that maybe a Karstak or a Royce can sit in Winterfell as it's heir. And Robb bluntly states that they may share blood, but their name isn't "Stark". The believe blood is important. I believe names and houses are important as well.

Also, when you read through all the histories of the world it becomes apparent that all magic is seeped in blood magic. Blood is very important and royal blood (Titles) also seemed ot be important from cultures all over and if the peoples of teh world picked up the blood magic from the Children or other exitinct beings, it behooves one to believe that indeed, blood is important, as well as "perception of the title.

[Mr Fixit]

I feel that there are jstu as many FM houses as there are Andals, and since the Andals invaded, there should be a lot more extinct houses. I felt like each house picked either FM or Andal out of a hat.

And to find out that the Reach, Westerlands and Stormlands were pretty much united was underwhelming. Besides in the Riverlands, we don't have much more evidence of this age of a Hundred Kings.

Those were my main problems as well. I expected that the coming of the Andals would topple the existing order and shake things to the core. But the social status quo never really changed, just some new houses sprang up and positioned themselves right into existing slots. The kingdoms continued as before, in their more or less established borders, their ancient enmities continued much as they have. If I didn't know there were these guys called Andals, I'd be hard pressed to notice any significant difference between, say, pre-Andal Reach and post-Andal Reach, at least as presented in the world book.

Even TWoIaF itself seems to contradict itself, maybe because different parts of the book were written by Martin and Elio/Linda. For example, the early Arrival of the Andals section states the following:

...The First Men found themselves losing war after war, and kingdom after kingdom, to the Andal invaders. The battles and wars were endless, but eventually all the southron kingdoms fell. As with the Valemen, some submitted to the Andals, even taking up the faith of the Seven. In many cases, the Andals took the wives and daughters of the defeated kings to wife. (...) The fact that many southron castles still have godswoods(...) is said to be thanks to the early Andal kings who shifted from conquest to consolidation.

But none of this is true according to later sections. It's not true that all the southron kingdoms fell; in fact the three most significant didn't. It's not true that the southern First Men submitted, taking up the Faith. They took the Faith all right, but majority of them didn't in fact submit and continued as before. The fact that southron castles still have godswoods isn't thanks to early Andal kings because, as indicated, early Andals were never kings over vast majority of southern Westeros. It was primarily the houses of the First Men that preserved weirwood trees, as they were never conquered although they did over time adopt the Faith.

There's evident incongruity at work here.

[Ulthosian Stark]

Other then the Tullys and possibly the Rogers would the Starks have any Andal in them at all?

King Theon Stark literally killed an andal king, strung his body on the prow of his ship, and went to Andalos to burn and sack and loot. He stuck all the heads they'd taken in Essos on pikes on the shore facing them, as a warning.

Pretty sure they didn't accept Andal genes too easily or too lightly. Rickard was after all said to have southron ambitions, maybe he was the first to care enough to marry an Heir into a house with a good bit of Andal ancestry.

We shouldn't make too much about this though, when we did an Ancestry project in school I got my free relative, Great Uncle Wilhelm, German Air Force Pilot. Fought in WW2, I take comfort in the fact his picture showed he was not SS, just normal air force.

[joluoto2]

Other then the Tullys and possibly the Rogers would the Starks have any Andal in them at all?

King Theon Stark literally killed an andal king, strung his body on the prow of his ship, and went to Andalos to burn and sack and loot. He stuck all the heads they'd taken in Essos on pikes on the shore facing them, as a warning.

Pretty sure they didn't accept Andal genes too easily or too lightly. Rickard was after all said to have southron ambitions, maybe he was the first to care enough to marry an Heir into a house with a good bit of Andal ancestry.

We shouldn't make too much about this though, when we did an Ancestry project in school I got my free relative, Great Uncle Wilhelm, German Air Force Pilot. Fought in WW2, I take comfort in the fact his picture showed he was not SS, just normal air force.

Considering Blackwoods and Royces most likely has intermarried wit Andals countless of times: Yes. the Starks ave Andal blood.