Anyone let down by Andal and First Men history?

[Lord Stark]

I think that the maesters being of First Men origin. It brings something to the First Men that has been lacking, a priestly class of sorts. The Maesters may of once been like Druids, or if we look at Westeros, they may have once been like the priests of the Drowned God. With the way the Maesters lay down their surnames, and serve those who rule the seat of power at any given point, regardless of legal rights, or perhaps in past, the land, it seems to make sense. With the coming of the Andals and written language, their order likely became very different from what it once was.

I think the idea of the Maesters in ancient times being a priestly class on par with the priests of the Drowned Gods makes a lot of sense, and explains why the First Men never really had a holy caste if you don't count the Green men on the Isle of Faces.

I think when reading we should also remember that much of history would be viewed in the eyes of current life, much like King David being shown as a knight, in modern armour, even those he of course was not a knight, and armour levels of his day were vastly different. The differences between Andal and First Men might not have been major other then sailing, written language, steel, religion, knighthood, etc. Much of the minor details likely weren't mentioned, but added a lot to the cultures being different. Blood price for the killing of someone's family member is I believe a First Men thing, as was the First Night, First Men also seemed to have been more clan based, and these clan could easily been seen as houses as in the current story. Thraldom was a First Men thing, and not only a Ironborn thing. That seems to have vanished with the Andals arriving.

Many houses claim links to ancient heroes, which may or may not be true, and this is stated in the book. Arty Arryn is said told to be two people, 1 the Andal, and 1 a hero from the Vale in the Age of Heroes, whose real name is likely lost, but allows the Arryns to claim to have a storied history as much as any house.

I think it would be wrong to consider each of these regions as fully united as well. Petty kings popped up and fell as much in Westeros as with the real world. The Storm Kings for example fought for generations before the arrival of the Andals over Masseys Hook, who had their own King. Lands often rebelled and broke away. It's not unlike the Kings of Wessex becoming the Kings of England. Their power rose and fell, but in the end they became top dogs. Some of these kingdoms might have only lasted for a generation or two before being swallowed, and then reborn by some new warlord. We also know that at the arrival of the Andals the Darklyns and Mootons were still kings, and winning battles against the Andals and forcing them instead towards the Stormlands. House Mudd never ruled over the whole of the Riverlands, maybe not even half of it, and as such there were likely many petty kings in the area, and these houses could have suffered the most and became extinct.

I think the more you dig, the more the two become different cultures. It does also make sense that much of the old First Men houses remain, at least in name and blood. The Andal invasion often seemed like the Saxon invasions, and now even more so. The Andals became the more powerful of the two people, with the First Men retaining power mostly through politics and marriage alliances and converting. As such the Andals would see themselves as the more noble, powerful, and better of the two. As the generations went on, lords, and nobles would want to be known as Andal instead of First Men, and to be known as First Men was likely something only the proud claimed. When the powerful lords, and kings claim to be Andal, lesser men will do likewise to gain favour.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

I was surprised that so many first men houses in the south survived the coming of the andals. Before TWOIAF i thought that there were at most 1-3 surviving first men houses in each kingdom of the south, a wrong assumption after reading TWOIAF.

Even in very Andal regions(Vale, Riverlands), a good part of the powerful noble houses claim to be First men(Royce, Redfort, Hunter, Belmore, Coldwater, Shett, Upcliff in the Vale for example).

Is there any truth in the claim of these houses, that they are indeed First Men? It's certainly true for House Blackwood and Royce because they follow the old gods/have a weirwood/and first men runes, but the Tullys for example lack a weirwood, lack runes, don't follow the old gods, have a more "andal" sort of name, don't bury their dead in barrows or holes, don't speak the old tongue and still they claim to be First men.

In the middle ages there were many noble families who claimed to be descendants of the trojans, which was obviously bullshit. This makes me wonder if the claim of houses like the Tullys are just propaganda too?

The Royces do not seem to follow the Old Gods and Riverrun has a thin weirwood heart tree. First Men names are descriptive or short. Blackwood is obviously Black Wood, Coldwater is Cold Water, Upcliff is Up Cliff. Tully fits with the idea of shortness compared to something like Connington.

Not even the Starks speak the Old Tongue so that isn't a good measure.

[Bironic]

The Royces do not seem to follow the Old Gods and Riverrun has a thin weirwood heart tree. First Men names are descriptive or short. Blackwood is obviously Black Wood, Coldwater is Cold Water, Upcliff is Up Cliff. Tully fits with the idea of shortness compared to something like Connington.

Not even the Starks speak the Old Tongue so that isn't a good measure.

Sry... confused Riverrun with Red Keep...

Still I was surprised that so many first men houses survived outside the north.

[Mr Fixit]

Well, even if we cut 2000 years off the timeline, it still means that 4000 years passed from the Long Night to the arrival of the Andals. The First Men would have developed significantly from a technological perspective over those millenia. So the First Men at the time of the Andal arrival would have been much more advanced than the First Men who first crossed the Arm of Dorne to reach Westeros.

My reasoning goes something like this:

-4,000 Long Night

-2,000 Andal Invasion

-1,000 Coming of the Rhoynar (this last is confirmed in TWoIaF)

There are numbers, especially in the Riverlands and Iron Islands chapters that lead me to believe that the Andals came around 2,000 years ago. Things go significantly out of sync if other commonly believed dates are used, like 4,000 or 6,000 years.

As for the Long Night, I approximate using following logic: Andals are said to have fled before the might of Valyria. If we accept the above numbers as correct, it was about 2,000 years ago. But, if the Long Night was 6,000 years ago, it would mean that the Valyrian westward expansion was halted for millennia after destroying the Ghiscari Empire (estimated to have happened some 5,000 years ago) for no clear reason. Reading the section of the World book on the Rhoynish-Valyrian conflict and the Free Cities, I find it hard to believe that the Valyrians didn't move west for thousands of years, or if they did establish Volantis and some of the other Free Cities relatively early, that it took thousands of years until finally those cities came to blows with the Rhoynar (since we know for certain that the exodus of the Rhoynar happened 1,000 years ago). That's not the impression I get from the book.

So, to expand on the above numbers: Long Night 4,000 years ago. Soon after, Ghiscari Empire rises and rules for centuries, let's say nice and fat 1,000-1,500 years. Valyrians finally crush them around -2,500. Afterward they turn their eyes westward and come into conflict with Andals around -2,000 and the Rhoynar several centuries later.

Keeps the history moving at a nice quickish pace. :read:

[Free Northman Reborn]

My reasoning goes something like this:

-4,000 Long Night

-2,000 Andal Invasion

-1,000 Coming of the Rhoynar (this last is confirmed in TWoIaF)

There are numbers, especially in the Riverlands and Iron Islands chapters that lead me to believe that the Andals came around 2,000 years ago. Things go significantly out of sync if other commonly believed dates are used, like 4,000 or 6,000 years.

As for the Long Night, I approximate using following logic: Andals are said to have fled before the might of Valyria. If we accept the above numbers as correct, it was about 2,000 years ago. But, if the Long Night was 6,000 years ago, it would mean that the Valyrian westward expansion was halted for millennia after destroying the Ghiscari Empire (estimated to have happened some 5,000 years ago) for no clear reason. Reading the section of the World book on the Rhoynish-Valyrian conflict and the Free Cities, I find it hard to believe that the Valyrians didn't move west for thousands of years, or if they did establish Volantis and some of the other Free Cities relatively early, that it took thousands of years until finally those cities came to blows with the Rhoynar (since we know for certain that the exodus of the Rhoynar happened 1,000 years ago). That's not the impression I get from the book.

So, to expand on the above numbers: Long Night 4,000 years ago. Soon after, Ghiscari Empire rises and rules for centuries, let's say nice and fat 1,000-1,500 years. Valyrians finally crush them around -2,500. Afterward they turn their eyes westward and come into conflict with Andals around -2,000 and the Rhoynar several centuries later.

Keeps the history moving at a nice quickish pace. :read:

There is no reason why the birth of Valyria should have been immediately after the Long Night. It could just as well have been thousands of years after the Long Night. In fact, it almost certainly was, because it would have taken a long time for civilization to recover from the Long Night, and we know the Empire of Great Ghis was already ancient by the time Valyria went to war with them. These wars are placed at 5000 years ago, but even if it was 4000 years ago, there is no reason why the Long Night has to move forward in time.

[Mr Fixit]

There is no reason why the birth of Valyria should have been immediately after the Long Night. It could just as well have been thousands of years after the Long Night. In fact, it almost certainly was, because it would have taken a long time for civilization to recover from the Long Night, and we know the Empire of Great Ghis was already ancient by the time Valyria went to war with them. These wars are placed at 5000 years ago, but even if it was 4000 years ago, there is no reason why the Long Night has to move forward in time.

Maybe. Either way, I feel something's gotta move from previously conjectured dates.

[AtomixIGN]

It makes sense that they would expand along the coasts and further and faster than they would move up river from one of their coastal settlements that's on the other side of a mountain range and extremely powerful. Especially since Volantis was set up to really control(tax) the trade the Rhynor's exports. Destroy Ghis - establish Volantis - Then Lys and Tyrosh and take over Myr and Pentos trying to dominate the Narrow Sea - settle islands and control trade. Pentos would lead to confrontations with the Andals who probably burned their bridges with the Rhoynar and Sarnor and cant expand East or South and because of the Big 3 - then Boom - Westeroes.

Finally the Rhyonar and Volantis really go at it which took hundreds of years.

Support - there is no Dragon Road to Essaria. They went up and around and finally through.

[sertravisredbeard]

Maybe it's just that some families take more pride in certain aspects of their ancestry. The Blackwoods and Royces have obvious ties to their ancestors from before the Andals, so they're more easily identifiable with First Men blood. By now, with the countless years and generations, everyone in Westeros has large amounts of First Men, Andal, and even Rhoynish blood. Aegon IV did his best to make sure Targaryen blood was very liberally spread throughout the land as well, so Valyrian bloods in there too.

The histories will show important marriages made between First Men families and the Andal invaders, but whoever is in charge of the house at the time would have influence as to the traditions each particular house follows. Even with First Men blood being present in the South, it's obvious that Andal traditions have been easier to keep for some reason. But we all know there's still plenty of people with FM blood there.

[The Dragon has three heads]

Everyone says the Daynes are first men but with Dornish law they are unlikely to have gone straight down the male line. I consider it the line in general. No matter if you are man or woman you still only pass on 50%, so if the Lannisters are legit in their story, they are first men as the Lannister daughter was the 'heir' of the house. She passed her bloodline to her son the same way a man would.

Hey, Catholic here. I dont consider protestantism an advancement at all. 500 years of religious murders in my country, legal oppression too, advanced enough for you?

Can. Of. Worms.

Let's talk about church courts and lay courts, the many(political) battles the church fought to be able to try it's own and keep the secrets of it's own-murderers, thieves, child molesters on and on.

The reformation was a cataclysm as far as the church was concerned but overall it led to a more secular society and the breaking of societal norms that reinforced the ruling classes hold upon the poor and the unlettered.

Kill em all and let a Norse god sort em out I say.

You're all as bad as each other.

'My god Is the one true...'

Snore...

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Can. Of. Worms.

Let's talk about church courts and lay courts, the many(political) battles the church fought to be able to try it's own and keep the secrets of it's own-murderers, thieves, child molesters on and on.

The reformation was a cataclysm as far as the church was concerned but overall it led to a more secular society and the breaking of societal norms that reinforced the ruling classes hold upon the poor and the unlettered.

Kill em all and let a Norse god sort em out I say.

You're all as bad as each other.

'My god Is the one true...'

Snore...

I completely respect the protestant faith but to sit there and say its an advancement from Catholicism when people of both opinions were massacred is unsettling. France is the most secular nation in Europe, traditionally catholic. And the reformation wasnt backed up by mass literacy. They took out the images and left the unlettered even more in the dark. Nor was the reformation a popular mass movement, it was top down and eventually fines were introduced if you didnt go to protestant mass.

I never forget Simon Schama saying at school even as a jew he got the anglican propaganda about the reformation, it wasnt until he became a historian he saw through the lies. Its not about beliefs anymore, its about state sponsored privilege.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Made a list.

Andal: 40

Arryn

Martell

Vypern

Vance

Teague

Justman

Grafton

Corbray

Tollet

Ruthermont

Templeton

Tarbeck

Lydden

Jast

Lefford

Brax

Drox

Parren

Marbrand

Serret

Sarsfield

Kyndall

Tyrell

Orme

Graceford

Cuy

Roxton

Uffering

Leygood

Varner

Tarth

Bar Emmon

Uller

Qorgyle

Martell

Vaith

Allyrion

Santagar

First Men: 80

Any Northern house (including the Manderlys)

Lords of Crackclaw Point

Lannister

Stark

Durrandon

Gardener

Strong

Mooton

Darry

Bracken

Blackwood
Mudd

Fisher

Darklyn

Tully

Shell

Brightstone

Royce

Coldwater

Shett

Belmore

Upcliff

Redfort

Hunter

Casterly

Hawthorne

Foote

Plumm

Broom

Farman

Reyne

Westerling

Banefort

Greenfield

Crakehall

Yew

Moreland

Hightower

Redwyne

Tarly

Oakheart

Florent

Peake

Ball

Fossoway

Hewett

Rowan

Bulwer

Crane

Beesbury

Everstar

Estermont
Massey

Swann

Dondarrion

Caron

Selmy

Yronwood

Dayne

Blackmont

Jordayne

Fowler

Wyl

Wades, Shells, Holts, Brooks, Hulls, Lakes, Brownhills & Briars

Double the amount of First Men then Andals. Probably missed some, but you get the idea. Many more First Men houses then Andals.

Once you mix in other races I'd say there is no such thing as pure Andal or First Men blood in Westeros anymore. Not even in the North. Probably only beyond the Wall.

Other houses are Valyrian, Rhoynar or whatever the hell the ironborn are (merling/First Men hybrids??). Notably the Hoares had a lot of Andal blood, and the Martells a lot of Rhoynar. House Targaryen, Celtigar, Qoherys, Velaryon and Baratheon all started as Valyrian houses.

[Mr Fixit]

Yeah, not really liking what I'm seeing...

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Also, many of these Andals are not huge houses, especially in the Reach. Some are just named dropper. The real heavy hitters are all First Men.

Southerners are basically just First Men who follow the Faith of the Seven.

[naseridrl]

History is written by the victors. In this case there really wasn't one so a sort of homogenized history was written where they both come out of it looking relatively equal. It seems on some ways like the Andals just tacked bits of their culture on top of what pre-existed.

[Mr Fixit]

History is written by the victors. In this case there really wasn't one so a sort of homogenized history was written where they both come out of it looking relatively equal. It seems on some ways like the Andals just tacked bits of their culture on top of what pre-existed.

And that's OK, only it doesn't really follow from what we've been told in the main series.

[jet199]

And that's OK, only it doesn't really follow from what we've been told in the main series.

Maybe because things have often been told from a Stark perspective and they have a bit of northern superiority going on.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Why this sense of disappointment that the Andals were not some superior race that totally obliterated the First Men? I say, good on the First Men for keeping the influence of the newcomers down to a minimum.

[Mr Fixit]

Why this sense of disappointment that the Andals were not some superior race that totally obliterated the First Men? I say, good on the First Men for keeping the influence of the newcomers down to a minimum.

My disappointment has nothing to do with Andal cheerleading, but with the desire to see some true cultural diversity in Westeros. Until TWoIaF, I was under the impression from the main series that the coming of the Andals was a gargantually humongous thing, as well it should have been. Think of Roman conquest of Gaul, or better yet, Saxons coming to the British Isles. I'm not saying that the Andal/First Men intermingling couldn't have happened as described in TWoIaF, just that I expected forces of history to be... a bit more forceful in challenging the status quo.

[naseridrl]

Don't the Andals and First Men come from roughly the same area in Essos originally, The Grasslands?

So they may have begun as the same people. Just when they splintered the Andals were surrounded by more advance civilisations whereas the First Men were surrounded by different species. So the Andals learnt from those around them and became technologically more advanced but other than that their roots were the same as the First Men so not much else was different in their social structures.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Made a list.

Andal: 40

Arryn

Martell

Vypern

Vance

Teague

Justman

Grafton

Corbray

Tollet

Ruthermont

Templeton

Tarbeck

Lydden

Jast

Lefford

Brax

Drox

Parren

Marbrand

Serret

Sarsfield

Kyndall

Tyrell

Orme

Graceford

Cuy

Roxton

Uffering

Leygood

Varner

Tarth

Estermont

Bar Emmon

Uller

Qorgyle

Martell

Vaith

Allyrion

Santagar

First Men: 80

Any Northern house (including the Manderlys)

Lords of Crackclaw Point

Lannister

Stark

Durrandon

Gardener

Strong

Mooton

Darry

Bracken

Blackwood

Mudd

Fisher

Darklyn

Tully

Shell

Brightstone

Royce

Coldwater

Shett

Belmore

Upcliff

Redfort

Hunter

Casterly

Hawthorne

Foote

Plumm

Broom

Farman

Reyne

Westerling

Banefort

Greenfield

Crakehall

Yew

Moreland

Hightower

Redwyne

Tarly

Oakheart

Florent

Peake

Ball

Fossoway

Hewett

Rowan

Bulwer

Crane

Beesbury

Everstar

Massey

Swann

Dondarrion

Caron

Selmy

Yronwood

Dayne

Blackmont

Jordayne

Fowler

Wyl

Wades, Shells, Holts, Brooks, Hulls, Lakes, Brownhills & Briars

Double the amount of First Men then Andals. Probably missed some, but you get the idea. Many more First Men houses then Andals.

Once you mix in other races I'd say there is no such thing as pure Andal or First Men blood in Westeros anymore. Not even in the North. Probably only beyond the Wall.

Other houses are Valyrian, Rhoynar or whatever the hell the ironborn are (merling/First Men hybrids??). Notably the Hoares had a lot of Andal blood, and the Martells a lot of Rhoynar. House Targaryen, Celtigar, Qoherys, Velaryon and Baratheon all started as Valyrian houses.

I thought the Estermonts were First Men.

And Mormont sounds very Andal, they don't strike me as a First Men house.