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40 Thousand Skeletons

[TWOIAF Spoilers] Tyrion, Son of the Mad King

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I used to gravitate toward the ideas that Tyrion is not a Targ but will ride a dragon anyways somehow, and J+C could possibly be the children of the mad king. I especially liked the idea of yet another parallel existing between Tyrion and Jaime as they would have both killed their own fathers, and we still don't yet know the full consequences of kin-slaying, so that could be important.

However, with TWOIAF out, it seems basically confirmed that:
1) J+C are Tywin's children.

2) You need Valyrian blood to ride a dragon, possibly even more specific than that (families of dragons bonded to specific Valyrian families possibly, doesn't matter much anymore)

3) Lannisters never married any Targs, so no Targ blood in them (100% EDIT: 99% confirmed by family tree, Plumm blood technically possible as some people here have pointed out, though I think there would be some mention of it by now)

SO... For the sake of this argument, let's assume that Tyrion will ride a dragon, because all the foreshadowing, including from tWoW chapter:

Guy gets killed awesomely by Jorah, the white dragon piece from the cevasse board falls to the ground with blood on it and Tyrion picks it up and examines it. This, along with the fact that Tyrion knows more about dragons than almost anyone alive, seems to strongly suggest that Viserion will be injured in battle, and Tyrion will heal him and ride him and make saddles for himself and Daenerys, happy times ahead.

Based on this info, and the other info about Aerys and Joanna and the visit to KL in 272 and some other tidbits from TWOIAF, I find it very difficult to believe at this point that Tyrion is Tywin's son. It would also mean that Tyrion and Jaime killed EACH OTHER'S fathers which is hilarious, and neither would be kin-slayers which may be important for reasons yet unknown. Obviously this topic has been discussed a ton before TWOIAF, but this really gives us some fresh context. Thoughts? And please refrain from "it would be bad writing". That is not much of an argument here.

EDIT: english

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No its certainly possible. Not necessarily plausible or making some narrative sense with so many other secret targ blood folks, but yeah twoiaf only helped feed the flames of Tyrion's targness

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No its certainly possible. Not necessarily plausible or making some narrative sense with so many other secret targ blood folks, but yeah twoiaf only helped feed the flames of Tyrion's targness

I found it particularly suspicious that J+C were brought to court specifically within the potential time frame of Tyrion's conception.

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However, with TWOIAF out, it seems basically confirmed that:

1) J+C are Tywin's children.

2) You need Valyrian blood to ride a dragon, possibly even more specific than that (families of dragons bonded to specific Valyrian families possibly, doesn't matter much anymore)

3) Lannisters never married any Targs, so no Targ blood in them (100% confirmed by family tree)

2) Where is this confirmed?

3) Lannisters might carry Targ blood through Plumms. A daughter of Viserys Plumm could be old enough to give birth to Jeyne Marbrand or even Marla Prester.

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2) Where is this confirmed?

3) Lannisters might carry Targ blood through Plumms. A daughter of Viserys Plumm could be old enough to give birth to Jeyne Marbrand or even Marla Prester.

Boo hiss at him being Aerys son.

If he is gunna have Targ blood Plumms all the way.

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You really have to stress the concept of 'blind faith' a lot to believe that Joanna or Tywin have Targaryen blood through a daughter of Viserys Plumm.



1. There is the fact that the assumption that such a daughter even existed is a baseless speculation. What we know, is that Lord Viserys had a bunch of sons, but daughters are nowhere mentioned.



2. Aegon IV effectively destroyed the Plumms as a noble house when he claimed all their wealth for himself upon the death of Lord Ossifer. We see that the present-day Plumms are pretty much nothing but landed knights. It is highly unlikely that Lord Viserys had the money to marry any of his children into a wealthy Western family. This pretty much confirmed by the fact that Brown Ben's ancestor had to leave Westeros to seek his fortune elsewhere.



3. It is even more unlikely that a Prester or a Marbrand would marry the daughter (if she existed) of an alleged bastard, not to mention the fact that the Lannisters of Casterly Rock would never marry any of their own (i.e. neither Tytos nor Jason) to a girl with such a 'colorful ancestry'. Remember what Ser Kevan thinks of the present-day Westerlings!



Elaena's Penrose daughters would make somewhat more sense, but it is still neither likely nor confirmed that such a union took place.



Not to mention that George had the perfect opportunity to include a real Lannister-Targaryen match in the family trees or the text of TWoIaF. That he did not strongly suggests that such a marriage did not take place, neither directly nor indirectly.


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I think the term "blind faith" applies more to the A+J=T theory because all those so-called proofs have several different interpretations and nothing is conclusive. In the Plumm case, the theory can simply be tested when we learn what happened to the rest of the Plumms (which might happen in TWoW).


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Not to mention that George had the perfect opportunity to include a real Lannister-Targaryen match in the family trees or the text of TWoIaF. That he did not strongly suggests that such a marriage did not take place, neither directly nor indirectly.

Or a Plumm match, for that matter. Personally, I don't think that a Plumm would have been an unfit consort for Jason or even Tytos, when he was only a second/third son. Nor do we know that the Plumms didn't regain most of their position/wealth after the Unworthy. Viserys Plumm being a rumored bastard, who was royal on both sides, wouldn't have been much of an impediment, IMHO.

And that's the thing - if GRRM wanted us to contemplate alternative sources for Tyrion's Targ-like traits, he would have inserted a Plumm into his pedigree. Yes, iRL it would have been possible for either Jeyne Marbrand or Marla Prester to have a Plumm mother, if Lord Viserys had any daughters in the first place. But ASOIAF is fiction, and as such, it doesn't make any sense for GRRM to obfuscate things so much.

Tyrion had a golden opportunity to reveal his Plumm ancestry when interacting with Brown Ben - either in conversation or in his thoughts, and consider what it might mean in connection with dragons.

WOIAF was an even better chance to reveal this tidbit unobtrusively, if Plumm blood was supposed to be a plot point for Tyrion.

Instead, we got a load of stuff on Aeys - Joanna - Tywin triangle and Black Betha Blackwood with her black eyes and hair as Aerys's only grandmother.

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Mithras,



well, there is no hint whatsoever in the books about Targaryen blood in the Lannister line through the 'Targaryen-Plumms'. Whether or not Tyrion is Aerys' son or not has nothing to do with that.



But I guess GRRM also can conclusively prove that Tyrion is Aerys' son in TWoW, no?



Maia,



I don't think it is easy to restore money to a noble house if the king takes it away. Especially if ends up spending that money. The present state of House Plumm really does not suggests that they rose to power and influence again. We see how the Lannisters, Reynes, and other powerful and wealthy families deal with male cadet branches - they usually hang around at home. But Brown Ben's father clearly was forced to make a living elsewhere.



Viserys would only be old enough to father children of his own during Daeron's reign while Elaena effectively served as Mistress of Coin. That would have been the golden opportunity to raise the Plumms back to power again. But my guess is she simply did not care.



And I really don't think the children or grandchildren of a de facto bastard would not be considered to be a suitable bride for a Lannister of Casterly Rock. The Lannisters are not the kind of house who takes breadcrumbs from the royal table. They most likely never got a royal match because they wanted all or nothing (i.e. the king/Crown Prince for their daughter or the eldest daughter of the king for their eldest son, or nothing).



Marrying the grandchild (or great-grandchild) of a wanton younger princess (she had already birthed two bastards before Viserys) would not exactly raise the standing of House Lannister.


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I hate secret Targ theories as well, but the Tyrion son of Aerys is the one that has the most textual support.



Aerys had opportunity and desire to get with Joanna, Tyrion was described as as a monster with a tail that was cut off (there are tons of Targ malformed babies and obviously the tail, mismatched eyes from a supposed Lannister-Lannister child, he had dragon dreams, I guess the reverse kin/father slaying parallel b/w Jamie and Tyrion. Good chance that he interacts with a dragon at the very least. It's hard to refute A+J=T as a legitimate theory, would hardly call it blind faith.


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It's hard to refute A+J=T as a legitimate theory

It was even harder to refute the testimony of Varys against Tyrion in the trial.

Powdered, primped, and smelling of rosewater, the Spider rubbed his hands one over the other all the time he spoke. Washing my life away, Tyrion thought, as he listened to the eunuch’s mournful account of how the Imp had schemed to part Joffrey from the Hound’s protection and spoken with Bronn of the benefits of having Tommen as king. Half-truths are worth more than outright lies. And unlike the others, Varys had documents; parchments painstakingly filled with notes, details, dates, whole conversations. So much material that its recitation took all day, and so much of it damning. Varys confirmed Tyrion’s midnight visit to Grand Maester Pycelle’s chambers and the theft of his poisons and potions, confirmed the threat he’d made to Cersei the night of their supper, confirmed every bloody thing but the poisoning itself.

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. The present state of House Plumm really does not suggests that they rose to power and influence again. We see how the Lannisters, Reynes, and other powerful and wealthy families deal with male cadet branches - they usually hang around at home. But Brown Ben's father clearly was forced to make a living elsewhere.

People like Roderik Stark the Wandering Wolf, Aerion Brightflame and Oberyn Martell have all served as sellswords. And although House Royce is the richest and most powerful secondary House in the Vale, two of Bronze Yohn's younger sons chose to leave and try their luck elsewhere. We have no idea why Plumm Jr. left Westeros.

Viserys would only be old enough to father children of his own during Daeron's reign while Elaena effectively served as Mistress of Coin. That would have been the golden opportunity to raise the Plumms back to power again. But my guess is she simply did not care.

Actually, restoration of Plumm fortunes may have been what qualified her for a de-facto Mistress of the Coin in the first place. I mean, she must have proven her management and financial chops in some way, and this looks like the most plausible opportunity.

And I really don't think the children or grandchildren of a de facto bastard would not be considered to be a suitable bride for a Lannister of Casterly Rock.

Just because Tywin and Kevan were snobby doesn't mean that all previous Lannisters were to the same degree. Not that Kevan's own marriage makes a vast amount of sense from power-accumulation point, but then that's why GRRM made it so that he married Dorna Swyft still under Tytos, even though it meant that the couple had been childless for the first 17 or so years of their marriage and that their last child was born almost implausibly late for Dorna.

I mean, Lady Rohanne Webber wasn't a usual marriage material for a Lord Lannister either. If Plumms were otherwise suitable, I don't see him rejecting them as matches for his son because of alleged royal bastardy a couple of generations back.

And Jason had been married off by Tytos and in some haste, so all bets were off with him anyway. If GRRM wanted to insert Plumms into proceedings, he couldn't have done better than to make Joanna's mother a Plumm. Clearly, he had other ideas, though.

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I would like to point out to the people who don't think this theory has merit that we were also explicitly told that Tywin had to come to the Free Cities on duty as hand of the king, and we do not know when that happened. I suspect GRRM's next level of hinting at Tyrions identity will be the reveal that Tywin went to the Free cities in 272.


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Marrying the grandchild (or great-grandchild) of a wanton younger princess (she had already birthed two bastards before Viserys) would not exactly raise the standing of House Lannister.

I was wondering about that.. I couldn't really decide whether the passage meant that Elaena had birthed Jon and Jeyne before Viserys, or after.

Elaena, after having birthed Jon and Jeyne, had the hopes of marrying Alyn, and only a year after he had disappeared, did she give up hope and "agreed to marry elsewhere". Aegon IV doesn't really sound like the man who would give his cousin a choice in the matter.. Daeron II would. So couldn't it be possible that Elaena had her affair with Alyn after having given birth to Viserys Plumm, and that this affair eventually lead to the birth of Jon and Jeyne, closely followed by the discovery of Alyn having been "lost at sea", at which time Daeron had become King, and allowed her the choice?

I would like to point out to the people who don't think this theory has merit that we were also explicitly told that Tywin had to come to the Free Cities on duty as hand of the king, and we do not know when that happened. I suspect GRRM's next level of hinting at Tyrions identity will be the reveal that Tywin went to the Free cities in 272.

Tywin was present at the Tourney in 272 AC.. So at least while Joanna was at KL, Tywin was there as well.

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I really didn't like idea of tyrion being a targ but I've came round to the idea recently. I always thought he was a head of the Dragon but I think him being aerys Spaniards more similarities to who I think are the other two heads; Jon and dany. All three have targ father's, all three are potentially children of rape, all three of their mothers died in child birth, etc etc. So yeah call me a convert to a+j=t. It also for me reinforces what I already thought, that jaime not tyrion is the valaquor.


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I really didn't like idea of tyrion being a targ but I've came round to the idea recently. I always thought he was a head of the Dragon but I think him being aerys Spaniards more similarities to who I think are the other two heads; Jon and dany. All three have targ father's, all three are potentially children of rape, all three of their mothers died in child birth, etc etc. So yeah call me a convert to a+j=t. It also for me reinforces what I already thought, that jaime not tyrion is the valaquor.

A half-brother is still a brother--but I always thought Jaime was likely the valonqar. Tyrion seems the least likely of all the potential candidates simply for the reason that Cersei thinks Tyrion is the valonqar and it just seems highly unlikely that Cersei would be correct.

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I really didn't like idea of tyrion being a targ but I've came round to the idea recently. I always thought he was a head of the Dragon but I think him being aerys Spaniards more similarities to who I think are the other two heads; Jon and dany. All three have targ father's, all three are potentially children of rape, all three of their mothers died in child birth, etc etc. So yeah call me a convert to a+j=t. It also for me reinforces what I already thought, that jaime not tyrion is the valaquor.




I agree with all that, though I do like to think that Jon was not born of rape.






Tyrion will be king, Jaime will be his Hand, each following in their fathers footsteps.




I have always thought Jaime would end up hand and Tyrion king. Jon sees Tyrion's shadow in GoT and thinks, "and just for a moment Tyrion Lannister stood tall as a king." Also in GoT, Robert threatens to "pin the damned thing on Jaime Lannister." Then of course Jaime has his hand cut off, and the story of Orys Baratheon losing his hand seems to lend more credit to Jaime becoming hand. And then Jaime Lannister would be forever remembered as the Handless Hand instead of the king slayer.


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(...)

However, with TWOIAF out, it seems basically confirmed that:

1) J+C are Tywin's children.

(...)

Where is it confirmed? All I've seen is the line of the World book saying:«but Lady Joanna departed at once for Casterly Rock and seldom visited King's Landing thereafter.»

I still didn't finish the World book, just read some of it. So, maybe I'm missing something that I still didn't read.

'Seldom' does not mean 'never' it means that Joana indeed visited Kind's Landing a couple of times.

So far, it seems, not only Tyrion, but also Jaime and Cersei can be Aerys biological children. The three of them can have Targaryen blood.

Actually there are several clues that hint so, but nothing conclusive either way. The discussions about the biological father of the three character has been going on at least since AFFC. And I've read the books before HBO. I don't know if it was talked about before because I've read the books after AFFC was published.

«He wore crimson silk, high black boots, a black satin cloak.» (Jaime Lannister. AGoT. Ch.5, Jon I)

Why on Earth Planetos is Jaime wearing Targaryen colors in Winterfell in Jon's chapter and he compares Jaime with the notion of king? «This is what a king should look like»

«The prince wore sword and dagger, black boots polished to a high sheen, a black cloak lined with blood-red silk. (...) At his throat he wore three huge square-cut rubies on a chain of black iron, a gift from Magister Illyrio. Red and black. Dragon colors. That was good. "You look a proper prince," he told the boy. "Your father would be proud if he could see you."» (fAegon Targaryen. ADwD. Ch.24, The Lost Lord. JonCon I)

Edited to extend the quotes because I think the parallels are quite interesting.

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