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[TWOIAF Spoilers] Tyrion, Son of the Mad King


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We don't really know enough about the percentage effectiveness of moon tea or the dangers of a Westeros "abortion" let alone what personal religious values Joanna might have regarding getting rid of the fetus. Given that we don't know, it is mere speculation that she would have found a way to get rid of the child. We know almost nothing about her personality other than that she was able to rule Tywin.

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Which means that Joanna was not a numpty and only a numpty would fail to take moon tea after being raped by a purple eyed, inbred crazy person.

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Which means that Joanna was not a numpty and only a numpty would fail to take moon tea after being raped by a purple eyed, inbred crazy person.

I think there certainly is a distinct possibility that Joanna took moon tea and it failed, perhaps she did not. Are you suggesting that there is not a normal intelligent woman in the real world who makes a choice to give birth to a child born of rape? I do not have any personal experience regarding this issue, but I do not believe that it is true that only a "numpty" woman would bring a child of rape to term.

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Which means that Joanna was not a numpty and only a numpty would fail to take moon tea after being raped by a purple eyed, inbred crazy person.

We know that the moon tea, while pretty reliable, is not 100%, as, indeed, modern contraception isn't. Notably, it failed for Joanna's daughter Cersei once with pregnancy by Robert, and Jaime had to find a woman to "cleanse" her, as per her confession to Ned in AGoT. IMHO, this is a strong clue re: what happened with Joanna and Tyrion. I.e. that after encounter with Aerys she drank some moon tea and thought that the issue had been dealt with. Then she slept with Tywin and, when she discovered that she was pregnant, reasonably assumed that Tywin was the father.

Re: circumstances under which this encounter between Aerys and Joanna might have happened - I still think that he came to the sleeping chamber of the Hand through the secret door. All he needed to do to keep Tywin out of the way was to occupy him with some lengthy task. From what we have seen of Cat, Cersei and even Sansa, noblewomen don't necessarily have company in their sleeping quarters in ASOIAF, and Aerys could have listened a bit to make sure that Joanna was alone and/or ordered his master of whisperers at the time to do this. And Tywin would have thought that Joanna was safe in his own bedchamber, surrounded by the Lannister guards and retainers.

Finally, IMHO Tywin's attempt at resignation may have come not because he knew what had happened (at the time. He probably pieced it together after Tyrion's birth), but because Joanna asked him to, using humiliating remark as a pretext. She must have seen that there was no hope of mending (their) Tywin's relationship with Aerys, that things were bound to become even worse, and that it could result in bad stuff for House Lannister down the line. She was already opposed to Tywin's dreams of matching Cersei with Rhaegar, after all.

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Notably, it failed for Joanna's daughter Cersei once with pregnancy by Robert, and Jaime had to find a woman to "cleanse" her, as per her confession to Ned in AGoT.

But it is never stated that Cersei tried the moon tea first, is it?

I figured that Cersei needed someone to cleanse her because the pregnancy had been too far along for the moon tea to have effect..

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About the moon tea option:



Who's to say that Joanna knew she was pregnant by Aerys (if indeed she was)? Presumably she had also slept with her own husband since turning up at the capital even that same day, and maybe would not take the risk of aborting a trueborn child and being cursed by the gods for doing so - or some other superstition. That society was full of them.



Or maybe she just loved her child no matter what the consequences. Is that so hard to believe?


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The moon tea debate is sort of pointless.



Either Tyrion is Aerys' child by Joanna - and then GRRM will most likely (have to) explain why Joanna wanted to give birth to the child (possibly reasons could include that she wanted to have the child, that she was not sure if it was Tywin's or Aerys', that she tried to abort it and failed, thus causing Tyrion's deformation, etc.).



Or Tyrion is not Aerys' son - then the question is pointless in itself. But we cannot really deduce anything from the fact that Joanna did - as far as we know - not try abort Tyrion via moon tea to conclude that Tyrion is not Aerys' son. We really know next to nothing about Joanna Lannister's private life after all...


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Aerys had opportunity and desire to get with Joanna, Tyrion was described as as a monster with a tail that was cut off (there are tons of Targ malformed babies and obviously the tail, mismatched eyes from a supposed Lannister-Lannister child, he had dragon dreams, I guess the reverse kin/father slaying parallel b/w Jamie and Tyrion. Good chance that he interacts with a dragon at the very least. It's hard to refute A+J=T as a legitimate theory, would hardly call it blind faith.

In addition to this,in Jon I of GOT,Tyrion is described as having almost white hair.This is quite a Targaryen feature.

If Joanna had sex with Aerys she would like nobody to learn it.She was not at her house with her own maester so why would she ask moon tea from an unknown maester who could spread the rumor that the Hand's wife had an affair?Uncertainty about who the father really was can be the reason why she didn't abort the pregnancy and why Twyin didn't kill the baby after Joanna's death.

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In addition to this,in Jon I of GOT,Tyrion is described as having almost white hair.This is quite a Targaryen feature.

If Joanna had sex with Aerys she would like nobody to learn it.She was not at her house with her own maester so why would she ask moon tea from an unknown maester who could spread the rumor that the Hand's wife had an affair?Uncertainty about who the father really was can be the reason why she didn't abort the pregnancy and why Twyin didn't kill the baby after Joanna's death.

Justin Massey says hi. Also Ned Dayne. Also Leo Tyrell.

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Has anyone ever tried to make a timeline of Tywin, to try and figure out when he could have gone to the Free cities? I still feel like we were given that information for a reason. What is the timeline on Rhaegar and Elias marriage, Tywins proposal of Cersei and Rhaegar, and Tyrions birth?

Give me a few more weeks (still gathering every possible useful quote from the world book)... ;)

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We know that the moon tea, while pretty reliable, is not 100%, as, indeed, modern contraception isn't. Notably, it failed for Joanna's daughter Cersei once with pregnancy by Robert, and Jaime had to find a woman to "cleanse" her, as per her confession to Ned in AGoT. IMHO, this is a strong clue re: what happened with Joanna and Tyrion. I.e. that after encounter with Aerys she drank some moon tea and thought that the issue had been dealt with. Then she slept with Tywin and, when she discovered that she was pregnant, reasonably assumed that Tywin was the father.

Re: circumstances under which this encounter between Aerys and Joanna might have happened - I still think that he came to the sleeping chamber of the Hand through the secret door. All he needed to do to keep Tywin out of the way was to occupy him with some lengthy task. From what we have seen of Cat, Cersei and even Sansa, noblewomen don't necessarily have company in their sleeping quarters in ASOIAF, and Aerys could have listened a bit to make sure that Joanna was alone and/or ordered his master of whisperers at the time to do this. And Tywin would have thought that Joanna was safe in his own bedchamber, surrounded by the Lannister guards and retainers.

Finally, IMHO Tywin's attempt at resignation may have come not because he knew what had happened (at the time. He probably pieced it together after Tyrion's birth), but because Joanna asked him to, using humiliating remark as a pretext. She must have seen that there was no hope of mending (their) Tywin's relationship with Aerys, that things were bound to become even worse, and that it could result in bad stuff for House Lannister down the line. She was already opposed to Tywin's dreams of matching Cersei with Rhaegar, after all.

If Tyrion is Aerys' son and it was part of a continuing affair and not rape, I really like this explanation.

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As far as Tywin being able to go with Joanna if summoned by the King's guards--you are 100% incorrect. If the guards tell you you are not invited to visit the King, only Joanna, you don't go. That is how it works in KL. For the most part, Aerys had no ready access to Joanna because she was at CR and almost never went to KL. We know that one of the only times she went to KL after her dismissal from service was in 272.

You overestimate the power of a king, she was not a peasant, she was a lady. A king just can't rape ladies. And you forget who he is, the hand of the king who rules almost everything. Aerys would not dare push his luck further then humiliation.

You see this to simple, this is based upon real history with real power balance. Even Cersei knows she can't torture Maegaery because she wants to ... The only girls Aerys was allowed to have a go with were his wife (who he could rape), whores and peasant girl if he kept it quiet.

There is a difference with burning people (execution, practising the law) as a king or just doing what you please, that is not realistic. You cannot built a kingdom with a king who can just rape and kill anyone he pleases. Even Joffrey could not.

If he raped her it was in secret, very quick and no one was involved. It would not have been possible otherwise. (And if the kings guard was involved Barristan would know about it. If he knew about it her rape would have came up in his POV. He would be shocked by it.) And I dare say Tywin was to smart to let his wife wander around alone. She herself was to smart.

Besides you completely ignored the fact that Aerys remained frustrated after the event, which indicates he never had her at all. His treatment of Tywin grew worse, he was just jealous of Tywin and the only thing he could do was humiliate him. If he had raped Joanna he would not go back a step again would he?

So the point is, if Both Tywin and Joanna were not careful enough, if Aerys got the chance to get to Joanna without anyone noticing, if she failed to get moon tea after that, if she failed to get an abortion after that and if The fact that he raped het did not affects Aerys treatment of Tywin at all then A+J is true?

There are just too many holes.

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You overestimate the power of a king, she was not a peasant, she was a lady. A king just can't rape ladies.

Well, Aegon the Unworthy had any ladies, that caught his fancy. Some might have been rapes or happened under one kind of duress or another.

Also, did Delena Florent, whom Robert carried to Stannis's marriage bed, really have much say in the matter? We don't know.

If he raped her it was in secret, very quick and no one was involved. It would not have been possible otherwise. (And if the kings guard was involved Barristan would know about it. If he knew about it her rape would have came up in his POV. He would be shocked by it.) And I dare say Tywin was to smart to let his wife wander around alone. She herself was to smart.

Except that neither of them knew about the secret entrance into the sleeping chamber of the Hand, so the Lannisters couldn't protect Joanna from having and encounter/being attacked that way. Yes, the means for Aerys to have Joanna secretly, willing or not, had been introduced since ACoK and used for a secret tryst. If it is not a strong hint at what may have happened inthe past, I don't know what is.

If he had raped Joanna he would not go back a step again would he?

Maybe it didn't give him the satisfaction that he hoped for? Nor did it really change anything re: Tywin being a better ruler and being considered the true power?

So the point is, if Both Tywin and Joanna were not careful enough, if Aerys got the chance to get to Joanna without anyone noticing,

Well, as I say above, we have the well-established means, so this would have been quite easy for Aerys, nor did Tywin and Joanna know to take precautions against it.

if she failed to get moon tea after that, if she failed to get an abortion after that

Again, if she took moon tea after Aerys and slept with Tywin later, she wouldn't have known that she needed an abortion.

And again, we have the precedent with Cersei, only Cersei presumably didn't have a chance to sleep with Jaime afterwards, so could be sure that the child was Robert's.

And yes, Cersei must have had moon tea on hand and used it, otherwise she either would have gotten knocked up before her marriage, or might have become pregnant by Jaime at an awkward time, when Robert was not around.

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Could we please drop this rape thing unless it is clear what is meant by that.



A king is never alone, so the idea that Joanna was raped by him the way (powerful) men today rape or coerce women to have sex with them is very unlikely - unless Aerys commanded that Joanna join him in his chambers (either via the Kingsguard or personally during whatever celebration/feast Joanna attended during the tourney).



In my opinion, this is what happened. The idea that a (highborn) woman could defy to have sex with the king has effectively debunked by both Aegon IV and Aerys II. Both apparently had every woman they wanted as long as they wanted women. Neither Joanna nor Tywin could truly object.



The idea of Aerys using the hidden tunnels to surprise Joanna is an interesting idea, but such a thing would be essentially much riskier because Aerys would intrude on Tywin/Joanna, and could not really foresee what would happening. For instance, Joanna could not recognize Aerys, cry for help, and some Lannister guardsmen would surprise the king in Lady Joanna's bedchamber. That could be ... an unpleasant affair, to say the least.


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What if J+A=Love for ever, Tywin suspecting and being jealous lets the Queen know or even asks the Queen to banish J , (She obviosly doesn't give a crap about all the other women in the Kings life, she just wants to be left alone by him) so J would be far away from the King???


Then the King summons her after she gives birth to the twins but Tywin is trying very hard not to make it happen until J finds out about it, the year before Tyrion's birth and T can't no longer stop her from coming to KL. She meets with him, he humiliates her in front of the court so nobody suspects anything, and they find the time to be intimate. After that J feels guilty, asks T to resign, goes to CR and writes to her dear friend from Dorne to arrange a marriage between their children, just to create a diversion (they arrive just after Tyrion was born)


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Dorea,



that is not an impossible scenario. I've already suggested that Tywin could have approached Rhaella to dismiss Joanna to give him a pretext to send her back home to Casterly Rock to prevent her and Aerys to continue their affair. Tywin could have hindered Joanna and Aerys to rekindle their affair during the king's extended stay in the West in 267 AC. But in 272 AC they finally got a chance to be alone together again.



Aerys' comment about Joanna's breasts would in this scenario be a drunken slip, caused by Aerys' established pattern to humiliate Tywin constantly.


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What if J+A=Love for ever, Tywin suspecting and being jealous lets the Queen know or even asks the Queen to banish J , (She obviosly doesn't give a crap about all the other women in the Kings life, she just wants to be left alone by him) so J would be far away from the King???

Then the King summons her after she gives birth to the twins but Tywin is trying very hard not to make it happen until J finds out about it, the year before Tyrion's birth and T can't no longer stop her from coming to KL. She meets with him, he humiliates her in front of the court so nobody suspects anything, and they find the time to be intimate. After that J feels guilty, asks T to resign, goes to CR and writes to her dear friend from Dorne to arrange a marriage between their children, just to create a diversion (they arrive just after Tyrion was born)

Woman in Rhaella's service who became a mistress to Aerys, no matter how long, were send away by the queen.. from court, that is.
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Rhaenys,



yes, but we don't know when they were dismissed. My guess is only after the king had lost interest in them. Rhaella could not really banish or punish the paramour of the king, I assume.



Joanna could have been a special case, though, assuming that Aerys was much more into her than in his other mistresses. That could be a hint that he was pushing her to keep Joanna until Rhaella had enough when she suspected/had reason to suspect that Aerys and Joanna were continuing their affair even after Joanna had married Tywin.


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