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[TWOIAF Spoilers] Tyrion, Son of the Mad King


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LV--



When I refer to Aerys raping Joanna, I don't mean sex by physical force. I mean that Joanna was ordered to the king's chambers and she knew what was expected of her. I am not certain that she was a willing participant, and thus by modern definition, at least, that is rape. But I concede that a completely consensual encounter is possible. The clues in that regard seem ambiguous. But I think the implication that Joanna might not have been a true willing participant is there (mainly based on the insult regarding her breasts (not great foreplay))--making it rape.


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But would Barristan lie to Dany? I could see him ommitting and softening things, sure, but outright lies? Because if Joanna had been ordered into Aerys's chambers, he ould have known about it, no? And not said that it were servants rumours.

It has now also occurred to me that the secret door scenario would mirror Arthur's conception as described by Geoffrey of Monmouth. And that the whole triangle is really reminscent of Uther versus the Cornwalls, minus the war.

In fact, now that I think about it, there are Arthurian associations for Jon, Dany and Tyrion, all 3.

The former with his bastard upbringing despite secret royal heritage, magical sword association, etc.

Dany - dragon symbolism, the round table (introduced by Barristan in her absence), etc.

And, finally, Tyrion with the above.

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I used to gravitate toward the ideas that Tyrion is not a Targ but will ride a dragon anyways somehow, and J+C could possibly be the children of the mad king. I especially liked the idea of yet another parallel existing between Tyrion and Jaime as they would have both killed their own fathers, and we still don't yet know the full consequences of kin-slaying, so that could be important.

However, with TWOIAF out, it seems basically confirmed that:

1) J+C are Tywin's children.

2) You need Valyrian blood to ride a dragon, possibly even more specific than that (families of dragons bonded to specific Valyrian families possibly, doesn't matter much anymore)

3) Lannisters never married any Targs, so no Targ blood in them (100% EDIT: 99% confirmed by family tree, Plumm blood technically possible as some people here have pointed out, though I think there would be some mention of it by now)

SO... For the sake of this argument, let's assume that Tyrion will ride a dragon, because all the foreshadowing, including from tWoW chapter:

Guy gets killed awesomely by Jorah, the white dragon piece from the cevasse board falls to the ground with blood on it and Tyrion picks it up and examines it. This, along with the fact that Tyrion knows more about dragons than almost anyone alive, seems to strongly suggest that Viserion will be injured in battle, and Tyrion will heal him and ride him and make saddles for himself and Daenerys, happy times ahead.

Based on this info, and the other info about Aerys and Joanna and the visit to KL in 272 and some other tidbits from TWOIAF, I find it very difficult to believe at this point that Tyrion is Tywin's son. It would also mean that Tyrion and Jaime killed EACH OTHER'S fathers which is hilarious, and neither would be kin-slayers which may be important for reasons yet unknown. Obviously this topic has been discussed a ton before TWOIAF, but this really gives us some fresh context. Thoughts? And please refrain from "it would be bad writing". That is not much of an argument here.

EDIT: english

Late to the game, sorry.

But...Hell yes OP!

Obviously this is what has been laid out for us. It makes the most sense with all the hints from the 5 books that Tyrion has Targaryen blood. Plus the foreshadowing of him and Viserion, plus the fact that only Targaryens can ride/bond with dragons any longer.

And all the obvious hints from woiaf which put Joanna and Aerys together at time of conception. And Tyrion born in the next year. (just like I hypothesized)

At this point I really don't see what other conclusions could be drawn.

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But would Barristan lie to Dany? I could see him ommitting and softening things, sure, but outright lies? Because if Joanna had been ordered into Aerys's chambers, he ould have known about it, no? And not said that it were servants rumours.

How would it be an outright lie? Why wouldn't it just be omitting inconvenient facts? Is Barristan really going to tell Dany that her father rape (or had an illicit affair, even) with a Lord's wife? Not unless he really thinks he has to--and I don't see why he had to here.

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Wasn't Barristan disrupted by Hizdahr of all people before he finished the story? He may have come to the 'Joanna was summoned to your father and I stood guard at the door' part.



The secret door thing could work, I guess, if Aerys had ensured that Tywin was occupied elsewhere in that night. That would be easily imaginable.


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I would be fine with a scenario where it was consensual. The whole insulting Joanna in front of the court thing makes me think their relationship was long over, but it is possible. Either way, I think Tywin knew about it, causing him to try to resign.






Late to the game, sorry.



But...Hell yes OP!



Obviously this is what has been laid out for us. It makes the most sense with all the hints from the 5 books that Tyrion has Targaryen blood. Plus the foreshadowing of him and Viserion, plus the fact that only Targaryens can ride/bond with dragons any longer.



And all the obvious hints from woiaf which put Joanna and Aerys together at time of conception. And Tyrion born in the next year. (just like I hypothesized)



At this point I really don't see what other conclusions could be drawn.




Oh thanks! Glad you agree.


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LV--

When I refer to Aerys raping Joanna, I don't mean sex by physical force. I mean that Joanna was ordered to the king's chambers and she knew what was expected of her. I am not certain that she was a willing participant, and thus by modern definition, at least, that is rape. But I concede that a completely consensual encounter is possible. The clues in that regard seem ambiguous. But I think the implication that Joanna might not have been a true willing participant is there (mainly based on the insult regarding her breasts (not great foreplay))--making it rape.

I think you people are to influenced by movies. The only way Aegon IV could force people into his bed was because otherwise he would not look favourably upon them and their family. That is forcing indeed. You did not refuse a king because sex would mean favour and influence no sex the opposite.

Everything related with force and the kingsguard is just plain nonsense, that is not how a court as complicated as Kings Landing works. Woman are not driven at swordpoint to someones bed, thats for peasants. Sex is part of the game. The only place were this kind of effective rape happens, at court, is bad historical movies and Martin is to good at history for that. Seriously, look at the tricks Cersei plays to try to get to Margaery, if she can't hurt her he could not touch Johanna. They do not have the power.

So if Johanna would have been forced, it was because she would feel her family would suffer the consequences. Not that she would be killed, Aerys cannot kill people, he can only put them on trial. But Johanna has not to play that game, she nor Tywin have anything to lose, he is to powerful. So even if the kingsguard would come to her she would say no, and there is nothing Aerys could do about that. Absolutism is a fairy tale, kings need their lords and Aerys was terrified of Tywin, remember.

The only possibility I see is consensual, but that doesn't seem likely.

About the tower, why would Varys give that secret up to Aerys so soon? And why would Johanna be alone? Tywin would be there or her ladies, or either of them could walk in any moment. Besides weren't they at a tournament and not at court in272? I forgot.

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I think you people are to influenced by movies. The only way Aegon IV could force people into his bed was because otherwise he would not look favourably upon them and their family. That is forcing indeed. You did not refuse a king because sex would mean favour and influence no sex the opposite.

Everything related with force and the kingsguard is just plain nonsense, that is not how a court as complicated as Kings Landing works. Woman are not driven at swordpoint to someones bed, thats for peasants. Sex is part of the game. The only place were this kind of effective rape happens, at court, is bad historical movies and Martin is to good at history for that. Seriously, look at the tricks Cersei plays to try to get to Margaery, if she can't hurt her he could not touch Johanna. They do not have the power.

So if Johanna would have been forced, it was because she would feel her family would suffer the consequences. Not that she would be killed, Aerys cannot kill people, he can only put them on trial. But Johanna has not to play that game, she nor Tywin have anything to lose, he is to powerful. So even if the kingsguard would come to her she would say no, and there is nothing Aerys could do about that. Absolutism is a fairy tale, kings need their lords and Aerys was terrified of Tywin, remember.

The only possibility I see is consensual, but that doesn't seem likely.

About the tower, why would Varys give that secret up to Aerys so soon? And why would Johanna be alone? Tywin would be there or her ladies, or either of them could walk in any moment. Besides weren't they at a tournament and not at court in272? I forgot.

Are you serious? The KG or other royal guards come up to Joanna and say that her presence has been required by the king--and she says, "No, I'm not coming."? And the guards just say, OK, I'll tell the king you said no? That is not the way it would work at all. She might or might not know that she is going to his bed chambers until she is surrounded by guards walking away. They are in KL--the king's city. If he sends guards to bring someone to him, they are going to be brought to him.

ETA: The tourney of 272 was held in KL, and they were staying at court. WOIAF makes that clear.

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Kings can do what they want. Recall the time Maegor did anything during his entire reign? Like executing wives and their entire families, that kind of thing.

Execution is not rape. He did not just say 'I want you dead' he accused them of treason, he used the law. Besides you cannot compare Maegor to Aerys, he had dragons which makes him less dependent upon his lords. You can get away with more when you have Balerion.

Think about Sansa, who was treated badly by the kings guard. A prisoner with no friends. And even then someone stepped up, like Tyrion. Besides she was not even raped. Johanna was no meek Sansa, can't you see that?

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Execution is not rape. He did not just say 'I want you dead' he accused them of treason, he used the law. Besides you cannot compare Maegor to Aerys, he had dragons which makes him less dependent upon his lords. You can get away with more when you have Balerion.

Think about Sansa, who was treated badly by the kings guard. A prisoner with no friends. And even then someone stepped up, like Tyrion. Besides she was not even raped. Johanna was no meek Sansa, can't you see that?

Tyrion only had the power to help her because he was the king's uncle and the king was 13, and he also had men who could kill the king's guard no problem. Under normal circumstances and with a king who is of age, the king's word is law.

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We see how Joff has his KG treat Sansa. He could have raped her with their help in front of the whole court, and no one would have interfered. I don't think Aerys would have done that with Joanna, but could he have done it? Sure. But he should better have taken steps to arrest and execute Tywin in the process...



No one at court can really object when he receives a summons from the king. If Joanna - and only Joanna - was summoned, she would have to go. The only other option would have been open defiance against the Kingsguard.



Now, what would have happened between Aerys and Joanna while they were alone together in his chambers is a different matter. Really everything is possible. It could have been consensual sex because Joanna was still attracted to/still loved Aerys, it could have been something more coerced with Joanna not actually wanting to sleep with the king but feeling that she had no other choice (for whatever reason), or she could have defied Aerys openly, only to be overpowered by him physically.



I guess the latter is the most unlikely, as such a treatment would have left bruises on both Aerys and Joanna (if we assume they were alone together - if the Kingsguard did not only guard the room, they could only be bruises on Joanna). If Aerys had really treated Joanna is such a way, she could not possibly have hid what had happened from Tywin. And Aerys - not being all that mad at that time - would never have believed that he could trust after this whole thing.



If we compare Tywin's career as Hand in part to the favor-seekers during the reign of the Unworthy, a not-so-unlikely scenario would be that Joanna effectively bought Tywin his appointment when she began her affair and was Aerys' mistress. In that sense, there is also a not-so-bad chance that Joanna seduced Aerys later on that evening because she realized that Tywin intended to resign - and she did not want her husband to lose his powerful position at court. That could explain why the hell Aerys did not accept Tywin's resignation despite the fact that he was actually very tired of his Hand at that point.



But that would mean that we would have to imagine Joanna as a calculating woman who actively used her body and sexuality to get what she wanted. The fact that she supposedly ruled Tywin would actually support that theory. It seems she may have known how to rule both Tywin and Aerys. The very fact that she succeeded in marrying Tywin - who must have been aware of the fact that she was having an affair with the Crown Prince/King (if that was the case) - is a pretty big hint that Tywin was too devoted to her to care about any of that...


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LV--



Great post. You crystallized a lot of the thoughts I was having on the issue and some I had not even considered. The idea that Joanna knew that Tywin was going to try to resign and went to the king and slept with him to convince him to reject the resignation is a possibility I had not considered. I am not saying that I think it went down that way, but I agree that it is a possibility and would be consistent with the clues you identified. Bottom line--GRRM included the clues in WOIAF regarding Joanna's visit to court in 272 for more than just "backstory"--GRRM is laying the groundwork for A+J=T.


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UL,



the thing I find that version not all that unlikely is the thing that I really think if Tywin had any reason to suspect that Aerys had mistreated or even raped his wife, he would most likely have resigned much more forcefully (say, in the way he eventually resigned in 281 AC), and he most likely would also not have continued to serve faithfully as Hand had he had reason to suspect that Aerys had mistreated (one would expect some sort of intrigue against Aerys, a betrayal, perhaps even a much more premature kingslaying).



There is also no reason to believe that forcefully taking Joanna against her will would be something that would convince Aerys to trust Tywin more, or want him to keep him at his side. Aerys was not yet mad enough in 272 AC to find such a cause of action reasonable.



Thus my best idea is that Aerys was at least under the impression that Joanna still liked him. If we go with 'Joanna initiated the contact' then the idea that Tywin did not know for certainty what happened between the two of them can still be maintained. It is very unlikely that Tywin would not have been able to figure out who Tyrion's father was (or that Aerys had slept with Joanna) if Aerys had summoned Joanna into his chambers, or if Aerys had charged Tywin with some stupid task in that very night (say, check, that all the seven gates of the city are properly defended, or something of that kind). But if Joanna had only left Tywin after he had fallen asleep, and he never even realized that she was gone, he may have suspected something later when Aerys did not accept his resignation (and he remembered that Joanna had demanded last night that he should not resign at all), but there would have been no real evidence.


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Now that WOIAF spoilers are permitted on the main board without spoiler tag, I have posted a full analysis of A+J=T, under the title A+J=T v. 2 (there was an original thread of A+J=T that grew to 35 pages and has been locked since April). Anyone interesting in my summary of the analysis from the original A+J=T thread, as well as various other threads that have discussed the topic can go there. I attempt to go through each argument I could find in favor of the theory, as well as the principal arguments put forth against the theory (with counter-arguments).


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We see how Joff has his KG treat Sansa. He could have raped her with their help in front of the whole court, and no one would have interfered. I don't think Aerys would have done that with Joanna, but could he have done it? Sure. But he should better have taken steps to arrest and execute Tywin in the process...

No one at court can really object when he receives a summons from the king. If Joanna - and only Joanna - was summoned, she would have to go. The only other option would have been open defiance against the Kingsguard.

Now, what would have happened between Aerys and Joanna while they were alone together in his chambers is a different matter. Really everything is possible. It could have been consensual sex because Joanna was still attracted to/still loved Aerys, it could have been something more coerced with Joanna not actually wanting to sleep with the king but feeling that she had no other choice (for whatever reason), or she could have defied Aerys openly, only to be overpowered by him physically.

I guess the latter is the most unlikely, as such a treatment would have left bruises on both Aerys and Joanna (if we assume they were alone together - if the Kingsguard did not only guard the room, they could only be bruises on Joanna). If Aerys had really treated Joanna is such a way, she could not possibly have hid what had happened from Tywin. And Aerys - not being all that mad at that time - would never have believed that he could trust after this whole thing.

If we compare Tywin's career as Hand in part to the favor-seekers during the reign of the Unworthy, a not-so-unlikely scenario would be that Joanna effectively bought Tywin his appointment when she began her affair and was Aerys' mistress. In that sense, there is also a not-so-bad chance that Joanna seduced Aerys later on that evening because she realized that Tywin intended to resign - and she did not want her husband to lose his powerful position at court. That could explain why the hell Aerys did not accept Tywin's resignation despite the fact that he was actually very tired of his Hand at that point.

But that would mean that we would have to imagine Joanna as a calculating woman who actively used her body and sexuality to get what she wanted. The fact that she supposedly ruled Tywin would actually support that theory. It seems she may have known how to rule both Tywin and Aerys. The very fact that she succeeded in marrying Tywin - who must have been aware of the fact that she was having an affair with the Crown Prince/King (if that was the case) - is a pretty big hint that Tywin was too devoted to her to care about any of that...

I like it, and I think it is more likely than a rape scenario.

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