[TWOIAF Spoilers] Tyrion, Son of the Mad King

[Wouter]

Kings can do what they want. Recall the time Maegor did anything during his entire reign? Like executing wives and their entire families, that kind of thing.

To be fair, Maegor had access to dragons. That made him a lot more "absolute" as king than Aerys II was. The latter needed support from his lords more than Maegor did, and was more likely to lose it as rebellious lords didn't need to worry about dragons.

Similarly, Sansa was a powerless captive and her family was already at war with the crown, so she was fair game.

OTOH, Aerys wasn't entirely right in the head and Joanna may still have wanted to avoid a confrontation between Aerys and Tywin even if Aerys simply summoned her as if she was a captive or peasant girl.

[ssls6]

I think a case can be made either way for Tyrion now. This makes me even more confused as to what the song of fire and ice is? Stark versus Lannister? How a Targaryen reclaimed the throne? The second long night? Will this epic take us to a new place, resolve something from the past, or just show us that history repeats itself? I'm not sure G. R. R. M. knows yet.

The world of fire and ice (which I thought was awesome) made more things possible in my mind not less.

[History of Westeros]

On Aerys/Joanna wrt Tywin knowing or not: I see a simple reason to believe why Joanna would keep an encounter with Aerys a secret from her husband. This is Tywin we're talking about.

A lot of people make the point "if Tywin knew Joanna was raped by Aerys, he would have done XXX, he's too proud etc" where XXX is something dramatic like rebellion. This is precisely why Joanna would not tell her husband about any encounter with Aerys, and why she would not try to acquire moon tea at court (especially if Varys was around by then). She knows how he'd react more than anyone who ever lived, perhaps more than Tywin himself, and she knows it could mean war or destruction for her family. A strong willed mother could easily swallow that truth to prevent strife, no matter how unjust the act. Yes, she could be worried about the child having Targ features, but really only the purple eyes would be damning I think. That's just a risk she'd have to take. If the kid has purple eyes, the truth comes out, but there's a chance the kids eyes are not purple, the secret is relatively safe forever. If she tells Tywin there's obviously no chance whatsoever to keep the secret. (I kinda like the symmetry of Joanna hiding her Targ child, not even telling Tywin, to Ned not even telling Catelyn the truth about his sister's Targ child. This is not evidence, it's just cool).

On Massey/Darklyn having Targaryen blood: Obviously there is no confirmation of this, but it's easy to see it being the case. From the Conquest:

To his oldest supporters he gave new honors. Daemon Velaryon, Lord of the Tides, was made master of ships, in command of the royal fleet. Triston Massey, Lord of the Stonedance, was named master of laws, Crispian Celtigar master of coin. And Orys Baratheon he proclaimed to be “my shield, my stalwart, my strong right hand.”

So the Masseys had been Targ loyalists since before the Conquest, and he's receiving honors equal to Valyrian houses (Celtigar, Velaryon and probably Baratheon too).

As for the Darklyns, they hold the record for most Kingsguard knights, and one of them was in the original Kingsguard. Visenya was a hardliner (and founder) about the Kingsguard needing to be ultra loyal, so the Darklyns were close, it seems. Along with their proximity to Dragonstone prior to the Conquest, some dragonrider blood is no stretch. All there needs to be is reasonable doubt, or else as many have pointed out, allowing Massey and Darklyn a chance at a dragon is flat out stupid.

Tyrion's dragonblood: I think, if he has dragonrider blood, it could manifest via the Brown Ben Plumm method, the dragon "inexplicably" liking Tyrion (in quotes, because the average reader may have no idea why this is happening, not aware of the possibility that Tyrion might be Aerys' son).

[Mithras]

On Aerys/Joanna wrt Tywin knowing or not: I see a simple reason to believe why Joanna would keep an encounter with Aerys a secret from her husband. This is Tywin we're talking about.

A lot of people make the point "if Tywin knew Joanna was raped by Aerys, he would have done XXX, he's too proud etc" where XXX is something dramatic like rebellion. This is precisely why Joanna would not tell her husband about any encounter with Aerys, and why she would not try to acquire moon tea at court (especially if Varys was around by then). She knows how he'd react more than anyone who ever lived, perhaps more than Tywin himself, and she knows it could mean war or destruction for her family. A strong willed mother could easily swallow that truth to prevent strife, no matter how unjust the act. Yes, she could be worried about the child having Targ features, but really only the purple eyes would be damning I think. That's just a risk she'd have to take. If the kid has purple eyes, the truth comes out, but there's a chance the kids eyes are not purple, the secret is relatively safe forever. If she tells Tywin there's obviously no chance whatsoever to keep the secret. (I kinda like the symmetry of Joanna hiding her Targ child, not even telling Tywin, to Ned not even telling Catelyn the truth about his sister's Targ child. This is not evidence, it's just cool).

By the time this rape happened, The Rains of Castamere song was probably written, Tywin applied a WoS to his late father's mistress some years ago and he proved to be a ruthless but effective ruler. The risk of having a purple-eyed baby was too much and the consequences for Joanna could be extremely severe. In that case, she could not convince Tywin of her innocence. And Tywin would be ridiculed/laughed upon tenfold. Even Joanna admitted that the only thing he could not stand was to be laughed at. If he learned the would-be rape as soon as it happened and raised his banners against Aerys, no one would laugh at him.

On Massey/Darklyn having Targaryen blood: Obviously there is no confirmation of this, but it's easy to see it being the case. From the Conquest:

To his oldest supporters he gave new honors. Daemon Velaryon, Lord of the Tides, was made master of ships, in command of the royal fleet. Triston Massey, Lord of the Stonedance, was named master of laws, Crispian Celtigar master of coin. And Orys Baratheon he proclaimed to be “my shield, my stalwart, my strong right hand.”

So the Masseys had been Targ loyalists since before the Conquest, and he's receiving honors equal to Valyrian houses (Celtigar, Velaryon and probably Baratheon too).

That does not mean that Targaryens married them. From the family tree of Targaryens, it is clear that they do not marry outside family unless they have to, especially during the dragons era. And Masseys are not Valyrians. Targaryens used Velaryons as reserve when they could not find a suitable bride but even in hat case, Velaryons were about to become a dragonlord family on their own.

As for the Darklyns, they hold the record for most Kingsguard knights, and one of them was in the original Kingsguard. Visenya was a hardliner (and founder) about the Kingsguard needing to be ultra loyal, so the Darklyns were close, it seems. Along with their proximity to Dragonstone prior to the Conquest, some dragonrider blood is no stretch. All there needs to be is reasonable doubt, or else as many have pointed out, allowing Massey and Darklyn a chance at a dragon is flat out stupid.

Tyrion's dragonblood: I think, if he has dragonrider blood, it could manifest via the Brown Ben Plumm method, the dragon "inexplicably" liking Tyrion (in quotes, because the average reader may have no idea why this is happening, not aware of the possibility that Tyrion might be Aerys' son).

At this point, with the available information about the nature of dragons, it is meaningless to use success in dragonriding as a proof of having Targ blood. Gyldayn seems to be doing that and that is why we call this whole thing a circular logic. George himself questioned the validity of accounts dating from the Dance through Tyrion in ADwD. So, it is entirely possible that Gyldayn was not sure about the paternity of the succesful seeds such as Nettles or the other ones yet he assumed that they had to be seeds because they were succesful.

[Lord Varys]

Come on, Mithras, you are smarter than that. Neither I nor HoW are suggesting that any Targaryen Lord of Dragonstone married his only daughter into House Darklyn or Massey, but rather spare daughters who could not be married to Targaryen or Velaryon uncles, nephews, or cousins. We don't know how many daughters Aenar had, nor do we anything about the amount of daughters Gaemon/Daenys and Aegon/Elaena or their sons and grandsons had.

You cannot possibly say that this is impossible, especially since that would explain a lot of things (the loyalty the Masseys showed House Targaryen prior to the Conquest; the fact that Steffon Darklyn and Gormon Messey thought they could become dragonriders).

Not to mention that we know that Aenar Targaryen brought siblings and cousins with him to Dragonstone. We don't know anything about those cadet branches, nor how many there were. Some daughters from those lines may have married back into the main line, but not necessarily all of them.

It is also possible that the Targaryens felt the need to strengthen their ties to Westeros in the century before the Conquest, especially with the Darklyns, as they controlled the most important port on the east coast of Westeros at that time. Dragonstone is not exactly a place to sustain a large populace, it seems...

And George has made it more or less clear that dragonbinding/-riding is connected to magic in various interviews. But even if he had not alluded to the fact that blood was important, going with Gyldayn's (and Yandel's) presupposition that dragonblood (or Targaryen blood) is necessary to become a dragonrider is not necessarily circular logic as we have no reason to not assume that Gyldayn or Yandel have pulled that presupposition out of their asses.

Going with 'the Targaryens/Valyrians just told everyone with their great propaganda machine that dragonlord blood was necessary when in fact everyone can do the trick' is - as long as it is not backed up by textual evidence - nothing but crackpot conspiracy theory stuff.

It is really the same with the dragonseeds. The fact that we don't know that they are descended from Targaryens/Velaryons does not mean that this is not the case. Especially not since all the successful dragonseeds come from Dragonstone or Driftmark, which essentially are places on which a lot of people could be descended from Targaryens. If it was suggested that one or two of the dragonseeds came from places were it would be very unlikely that they have Targaryen bastards in their heritage I'd have doubts, too. But this is not the case.

HoW,

my last take on the Joanna thing was that she might indeed have gone in secret to Aerys to sleep with him to ensure that Aerys would reject Tywin's resignation on the next morning. If Aerys had raped Joanna, or coerced her into sleeping with him, he would have not kept this a secret from Tywin. Kings don't have to be shy about their 'conquests', and certainly would not be if the whole point of this thing was 'to put Tywin back into his place'. To teach Tywin a lesson he would have to make it clear to him that he can take his wife whenever he wants to.

But if Joanna was actually the more ambitious one, if she wanted Tywin to remain Hand, and if Tywin told her he would resign the next after Aerys insulted Joanna with the breast comment, it could make sense for her to go to Aerys to ensure that he would not accept Tywin's resignation.

Thus Tywin would have no direct knowledge about anything, while still having enough bits and pieces (Joanna's absence late in the evening/night, Aerys' refusal to accept his resignation despite the fact that they were no longer close) to come to the conclusion that Tyrion may not be his son after he was born.

[chrisdaw]

Most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it. The twincest. That Joanna loved power not him. That the king had his missus on a whim and she had his child. The answer will be simple, denial.

[MissMatchedEyes]

I think it's entirely possible for Tyrion to be son of the mad king. GRRM has done nothing but surprise me with this series. I've always thought that Dany, Jon and Tyrion shared a bond because they were all "born in blood" with mothers who died in childbirth. I also like the idea of Tyrion making saddles for the dragons....

[History of Westeros]

By the time this rape happened, The Rains of Castamere song was probably written, Tywin applied a WoS to his late father's mistress some years ago and he proved to be a ruthless but effective ruler. The risk of having a purple-eyed baby was too much and the consequences for Joanna could be extremely severe. In that case, she could not convince Tywin of her innocence. And Tywin would be ridiculed/laughed upon tenfold. Even Joanna admitted that the only thing he could not stand was to be laughed at. If he learned the would-be rape as soon as it happened and raised his banners against Aerys, no one would laugh at him.

You're saying there's no way she would take that risk. I think it's a bit much for you to assume that. All this talk about how harsh Tywin is beside the point, because we all know his relationship with Joanna was an exception. Multiple accounts say Joanna ruled Tywin, thus your assumption, while reasonable, is nowhere near a certainty.

My position is not definitive, I am suggesting a possibility, which is that Joanna was willing to take that risk. I don't need a lot of evidence to suggest it's possible. You, however, need quite a bit to prove that it is impossible. Such proof does not exist (and we don't know much about Joanna's personality).

At this point, with the available information about the nature of dragons, it is meaningless to use success in dragonriding as a proof of having Targ blood. Gyldayn seems to be doing that and that is why we call this whole thing a circular logic. George himself questioned the validity of accounts dating from the Dance through Tyrion in ADwD. So, it is entirely possible that Gyldayn was not sure about the paternity of the succesful seeds such as Nettles or the other ones yet he assumed that they had to be seeds because they were succesful.

Again... possibilities, not definites. If a dragon likes Tyrion, this is evidence for him having Targaryen blood. It is not proof. If he rides a dragon, this is also evidence (weaker than the first example, but not meaningless, imo) for the same, but not proof.

That does not mean that Targaryens married them. From the family tree of Targaryens, it is clear that they do not marry outside family unless they have to, especially during the dragons era. And Masseys are not Valyrians. Targaryens used Velaryons as reserve when they could not find a suitable bride but even in hat case, Velaryons were about to become a dragonlord family on their own.

As LV said, no one is suggesting this absolutely definitely happened. It is, again, a possibility... one that explains a lot.

The answer to: "is it possible that Darklyn and or Massey have Targ blood?" is "yes". This is inarguable with the info we have, and not unreasonable.

HoW,

my last take on the Joanna thing was that she might indeed have gone in secret to Aerys to sleep with him to ensure that Aerys would reject Tywin's resignation on the next morning. If Aerys had raped Joanna, or coerced her into sleeping with him, he would have not kept this a secret from Tywin. Kings don't have to be shy about their 'conquests', and certainly would not be if the whole point of this thing was 'to put Tywin back into his place'. To teach Tywin a lesson he would have to make it clear to him that he can take his wife whenever he wants to.

But if Joanna was actually the more ambitious one, if she wanted Tywin to remain Hand, and if Tywin told her he would resign the next after Aerys insulted Joanna with the breast comment, it could make sense for her to go to Aerys to ensure that he would not accept Tywin's resignation.

Thus Tywin would have no direct knowledge about anything, while still having enough bits and pieces (Joanna's absence late in the evening/night, Aerys' refusal to accept his resignation despite the fact that they were no longer close) to come to the conclusion that Tyrion may not be his son after he was born.

Good idea. I have been thinking a lot on what little we know of Joanna's personality. I find it somewhat likely she was ambitious, and if not, she was certainly a reasonable player of the game, if not a good one. I have a hard time believing she was anything less than an outstanding Lannister specimen all around: brains & beauty. After all, Tywin fell hard for her. It's hard to imagine him falling for someone who isn't exceptional.

[The King's Justice]

in my opinion, all this talk of rape and moon tea is all speculation. The only thing we can say with certainty is that Joanna was in the same place as Aerys 1 year before Tyrion is born. This alone (not even with any of the other clues) is reason enough to put a small (or in my opinion large) hint towards Aerys being Tyrions dad. Add the other clues and it becomes a compelling argument.

Nobody anywhere can look at the evidence and completely dismiss this theory. I am yet to hear a better explanation as to why these clues exist, so I am convinced that Tyrion is a Targaryen.

Someone please add an alternate explanation of all these clues. If you can't, then regardless of whether Joanna would have aborted, or Tywin wage war or anything else, GRRM can make it happen with the evidence he's planted. Unless there is another viable explanation, we have to say its very likely that Tyrion is a Targaryen.

[rozemarijn]

in my opinion, all this talk of rape and moon tea is all speculation. The only thing we can say with certainty is that Joanna was in the same place as Aerys 1 year before Tyrion is born. This alone (not even with any of the other clues) is reason enough to put a small (or in my opinion large) hint towards Aerys being Tyrions dad. Add the other clues and it becomes a compelling argument.

Nobody anywhere can look at the evidence and completely dismiss this theory. I am yet to hear a better explanation as to why these clues exist, so I am convinced that Tyrion is a Targaryen.

Someone please add an alternate explanation of all these clues. If you can't, then regardless of whether Joanna would have aborted, or Tywin wage war or anything else, GRRM can make it happen with the evidence he's planted. Unless there is another viable explanation, we have to say its very likely that Tyrion is a Targaryen.

1. You cannot completely dismiss the theory, neither can you definately prove it.

2. I don't see clues. I see clues foreshadowing Tyrion will ride a dragon and I see GRRM did a good job trying to explain Tywins character. If you want to see something else in that that's your opinion, but I have mine as well.

3. GRRM can make it happen, he can also make it not happen.

So unless you have a copy of WOW lying on your desk we are stuck with moon tea and rape, which I find highly entertaining and interesting to analyze and also, you don't have to read!

I really like the idea of Joanna being the ambitious one and sleeping with Aerys to make Tywin stay hand. But I don't see her as that ambitious? She was planning on marrying Cersei and Jaime to Dorne, the children of her friend. That's in contrast of Tywins ambitions to make Cersei a queen.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

1. You cannot completely dismiss the theory, neither can you definately prove it.

2. I don't see clues. I see clues foreshadowing Tyrion will ride a dragon and I see GRRM did a good job trying to explain Tywins character. If you want to see something else in that that's your opinion, but I have mine as well.

3. GRRM can make it happen, he can also make it not happen.

So unless you have a copy of WOW lying on your desk we are stuck with moon tea and rape, which I find highly entertaining and interesting to analyze and also, you don't have to read!

I really like the idea of Joanna being the ambitious one and sleeping with Aerys to make Tywin stay hand. But I don't see her as that ambitious? She was planning on marrying Cersei and Jaime to Dorne, the children of her friend. That's in contrast of Tywins ambitions to make Cersei a queen.

Where is the bolded from? I don't remember that.....

Yes there are so many clues that link Tyrion to house Targaryen and foreshadow him riding a dragon. His chapters in DwD are brimming to the top with hints.

The moon tea thing is a wasted argument.

[rozemarijn]

Where is the bolded from? I don't remember that.....

Yes there are so many clues that link Tyrion to house Targaryen and foreshadow him riding a dragon. His chapters in DwD are brimming to the top with hints.

The moon tea thing is a wasted argument.

Oberyn tells Tyrion their mothers had a plan, which was ruined by Joanna's death.

There is a difference between being a Targaryen and riding a dragon. I only believe he will ride a dragon.

The moon tea is not wasted... When you are convinced of a theory you see proof everywhere. If Tyrion is Aerys son that story has to make sense. Which means:

1. It has to make sense how Tyrion was conceived.

1.1. Were they at the same time at the same place?

1.2. Were they able to have sex?

-was Aerys able to rape her?

-was she willing?

-was she forced?

1.3. How does Tywin fit in all of this?

-he did not know

-he had to accept it

2. It has to make sense that If Joanna was pregnant why not get rid of the baby?

2.1. She did not know it was Aerys.

2.2. She took moontea but it failed

-she also did an abortion but it failed

-the moontea/abortion is why Tyrion is malformed

2.3. She did not want to.

-she may have hidden the truth from Tywin.

3. It has to make sense why Tywin not got rid of it?

4. It has to make sense with Tywins behaviour.

4.1. He knows and tries to conceal it. But it explains his behaviour towards Tyrion.

4.2. He suspects, which explains his behaviour.

-he suspects because Tyrion is a dwarf

4.3. He does not know and his behaviour of Tyrion can be explained by the fact Joanna died in childbed and Tyrion is a dwarf.

So of all the above, we only have certain information about point 1.1. All the rest is speculation.

You can have as much clues as you want about dragon dreams, but the story has to make sense. Finding reasons why a story makes sense/does not make sense, helps by deciding how much value we should add to the clues.

My personal opinion is the story is still weak (but I am certainly buying the Joanna sex-not accepting resignation thing), and has a lot of ifs.

But if Tyrion is Aerys son, some of the above suggestions is what happened. But it is not: she was raped. It has to be: she was raped, she hid it from Tywin, abortion and moon tea failed and Tywin only suspects. Every point needs to be explained! If every point cannot be explained properly, it simply not true and the clues mean something different.

Another example: she was raped and the moon tea worked, Tyrion is still not Aerys son, but he might still suspect it is...

Or: she had an affair with Aerys, Tywin did not know, she Loves Aerys and keeps his child, she tells everything to Tywin on her deathbed and lets him swear to raise Tyrion. Which is why he hates Tyrion but let him live.

So that is why I, and many others in this topic, appreciate moon tea.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I meant it is wasted because how will we ever know either way?

WOIAF, GRRM and all 5 books confirm that Targaryen Blood is needed to ride a dragon. So yeah, Tyrion being drawn to the dragons or riding Viserion will be because he is the son of Aerys. Just like BBP, which him and Tyrion had a specific conversation about. Dragons like you because you have Targ blood, but just because you have some Targ blood does not mean they will like you for sure, but it is a prerequisite, end of story.

Thanks for spelling it all out for me, but I'm already there :)

They were in same place for conception.

Tywin's actions make perfect sense, he did not want to rebel against his king, so he took all the shit Aerys ever gave him, just like anyone would from a king. He tried to resign, Aerys refused, and Tywin accepted his refusal and kept his job. That shows us exactly how defiant Tywin was prepared to be.

And the rest is not 'speculation' tWOIAF added to fuel to fire that has been burning for years from the hundreds of hints littered throughout the 5 main novels (with a heavy amount in DwD). It's right there for all to see just like R+L=J. Not everyone picked up on both or either of those theories during the first read-through. I admit that I did not know about Jon until a friend who was a forum member before me pointed it out. But Tyrion being the son of Aerys, I picked up on the first time. There are hints in the first few chapters of GOT, this is not coming out of nowhere. It has been planned and laid out from the very beginning. GRRM drops subtle hints to begin with then they get more blatant, this theory along with Aegon being Blackfyre, are the 2 best examples of that IMHO.

[rozemarijn]

I meant it is wasted because how will we ever know either way?

WOIAF, GRRM and all 5 books confirm that Targaryen Blood is needed to ride a dragon. So yeah, Tyrion being drawn to the dragons or riding Viserion will be because he is the son of Aerys. Just like BBP, which him and Tyrion had a specific conversation about. Dragons like you because you have Targ blood, but just because you have some Targ blood does not mean they will like you for sure, but it is a prerequisite, end of story.

Thanks for spelling it all out for me, but I'm already there :)

You forget about the horn. (And I think not everyone accepts the fact that you need the blood). By example I believe Tyrion will ride a dragon and use the horn. As I said, foreshadowing he will ride a dragon is not the same as foreshadowing he is Aerys'son because there is an alternative explanation. You may not believe it, but it remains a possibility untill WoW is here. And therefore you cannot use it solely as proof.

Yes we may never find out about the moontea, or whether it was rape or consent. But that does not mean the story does not exist. It will exist in GRRM his head and it will fit. So it is worth the effort analyzing whether there is a possibility or not. Because. If the possibility is a crappy story and your dragon proof can also point towards the horn, your theory might be worthless.

They were in same place for conception.

Tywin's actions make perfect sense, he did not want to rebel against his king, so he took all the shit Aerys ever gave him, just like anyone would from a king. He tried to resign, Aerys refused, and Tywin accepted his refusal and kept his job. That shows us exactly how defiant Tywin was prepared to be.

And the rest is not 'speculation' tWOIAF added to fuel to fire that has been burning for years from the hundreds of hints littered throughout the 5 main novels (with a heavy amount in DwD). It's right there for all to see just like R+L=J. Not everyone picked up on both or either of those theories during the first read-through. I admit that I did not know about Jon until a friend who was a forum member before me pointed it out. But Tyrion being the son of Aerys, I picked up on the first time. There are hints in the first few chapters of GOT, this is not coming out of nowhere. It has been planned and laid out from the very beginning. GRRM drops subtle hints to begin with then they get more blatant, this theory along with Aegon being Blackfyre, are the 2 best examples of that IMHO.

R+L is more based upon facts, I think. There are very little ( or even none I can recall)hints towards Jon having dragon thoughts. All the information we get is practical. His mother and his father were together, his mother died with symptons of childbirth, Ned was there during the birth and he had a reason to keep him hidden. + Ned his thoughts. This is almost a solid story.

With this one, it is very different. There are all kinds of dragon thoughts and prophecy and standing tall as a king. But we only have little story confirmed:

-they were both in Kings Lamding around the time of the conception.

Everything else can be explained as:

-Tywin and Aerys troubles: character background for nastyness of Tywin

-Tywin and Tyrion problems: Joanna died and dwarf.

It does not have to be, but I really can see the story work by those two explanations and the horn you know ... Especially as you pointed out, since most people see it this way ...

[Suzanna Stormborn]

You forget about the horn. (And I think not everyone accepts the fact that you need the blood). By example I believe Tyrion will ride a dragon and use the horn. As I said, foreshadowing he will ride a dragon is not the same as foreshadowing he is Aerys'son because there is an alternative explanation. You may not believe it, but it remains a possibility untill WoW is here. And therefore you cannot use it solely as proof.

Yes we may never find out about the moontea, or whether it was rape or consent. But that does not mean the story does not exist. It will exist in GRRM his head and it will fit. So it is worth the effort analyzing whether there is a possibility or not. Because. If the possibility is a crappy story and your dragon proof can also point towards the horn, your theory might be worthless.

R+L is more based upon facts, I think. There are very little ( or even none I can recall)hints towards Jon having dragon thoughts. All the information we get is practical. His mother and his father were together, his mother died with symptons of childbirth, Ned was there during the birth and he had a reason to keep him hidden. + Ned his thoughts. This is almost a solid story.

With this one, it is very different. There are all kinds of dragon thoughts and prophecy and standing tall as a king. But we only have little story confirmed:

-they were both in Kings Lamding around the time of the conception.

Everything else can be explained as:

-Tywin and Aerys troubles: character background for nastyness of Tywin

-Tywin and Tyrion problems: Joanna died and dwarf.

It does not have to be, but I really can see the story work by those two explanations and the horn you know ... Especially as you pointed out, since most people see it this way ...

But you are basing all your ideas on the fact that Tyrion will get the horn?

1. He doesn't have the horn

2. Victarion now has a superhuman arm, a massive fleet at his command and the horn, he aint giving it up easily.

3. Odds are that Victarion will use the horn, not Tyrion.

4. Why would Victarion give Tyrion the horn?

5. If Victarion somehow dies before he blows the horn, how is little dwarf Tyrion going to get his hands on it while there are hundreds of much bigger trained fighters/soldiers/sellswords everywhere around him? Tyrion has no army, no bodyguard, no dragon, no great skill at arms. I think it is completely impossible for him to get the horn under his own steam.

So R+L=J is based on facts and A+J=T isn't? That is entirely your own (incorrect) opinion as hints have been being dropped since Tyrion's first appearance at WF just like hints have been being dropped for R+L=J since then. Or are you saying that R+L=J is the only theory that was ever hinted at in GoT? I think that is a naive view.

IMO Jon never has any dragon dreams because it would be too obvious that he was the son of Rhaegar, which is what you have just said as well.......... So explain the thinking to me; if Jon had dragon dreams it would be an obvious hint to R+L=J, in fact it would be indisputable proof to many people obviously.......but when Tyrion has dreams of dragons (on 5 different occasions throughout the novels) it does not mean he is the son of a Targaryen????

That makes zero sense. If something is true for Jon it is true for Tyrion as well, even if he is not a popular, legendary character. If you want to follow a line of reasoning it must be true for all characters, not just what you (or whoever) prefers to be true.

[rozemarijn]

But you are basing all your ideas on the fact that Tyrion will get the horn?

1. He doesn't have the horn

2. Victarion now has a superhuman arm, a massive fleet at his command and the horn, he aint giving it up easily.

3. Odds are that Victarion will use the horn, not Tyrion.

4. Why would Victarion give Tyrion the horn?

5. If Victarion somehow dies before he blows the horn, how is little dwarf Tyrion going to get his hands on it while there are hundreds of much bigger trained fighters/soldiers/sellswords everywhere around him? Tyrion has no army, no bodyguard, no dragon, no great skill at arms. I think it is completely impossible for him to get the horn under his own steam.

Yes but he's Tyrion ...

(Actually I think Tyrion will get a dragon as soon as the horn is blown because the one who has claimed his horn is his uncle Gerion, but that is a different story, one I also have found some textual clues for btw)

So R+L=J is based on facts and A+J=T isn't? That is entirely your own (incorrect) opinion as hints have been being dropped since Tyrion's first appearance at WF just like hints have been being dropped for R+L=J since then. Or are you saying that R+L=J is the only theory that was ever hinted at in GoT? I think that is a naive view.

IMO Jon never has any dragon dreams because it would be too obvious that he was the son of Rhaegar, which is what you have just said as well.......... So explain the thinking to me; if Jon had dragon dreams it would be an obvious hint to R+L=J, in fact it would be indisputable proof to many people obviously.......but when Tyrion has dreams of dragons (on 5 different occasions throughout the novels) it does not mean he is the son of a Targaryen????

That makes zero sense. If something is true for Jon it is true for Tyrion as well, even if he is not a popular, legendary character. If you want to follow a line of reasoning it must be true for all characters, not just what you (or whoever) prefers to be true.

Well I hold my ground. And I think you read my post wrong. I don't say there hasn't been any hints (or things one can see as a hint) since GOT, but the hints are of a different nature, which I find strange.

When I say facts I mean concrete stuff in the baby making process or people talking about the baby making process. Like real physical stuff such as Lyanna dying from fever and a lot of blood and Jon popping up at the same time. We have lots of that information about Jon, even about why the story needs to remain hidden and who else knows it. We practically know everything (remember my previous post. How conceived? Why not moon tea? Why a secret?) But we have only one thing for Tyrion, the fact that A en J were together in Kings Landing.

I think the first time a hint about actual sex between Aerys and Joanna was given was in Dance (by Barristan). So only since that moment have we known Aerys was interested. Dance is not GOT.

On the other hand, we have lots of suggestive information about Tyrion (b.e 'he stood as large as a king in Jons first POV) but almost nothing for Jon, except Dany's blue rose. If he was not R+L we would never think he would ride a dragon. There is only the Azor Ahai foreshadowing.

The whole A+J is very heavily based upon the dragon dreams hints and you said yourself the 'story' about how 'it' happened is not imporant. Because we know very little. But with Jon the story is all we have and the more dreamy hints pointing towards dragons do not exist.

Can't you see that is a completely different way of GRRM to give hints? I have no idea if it means the theory is false, Jon will not get a dragon, something else, or nothing at all, but the difference between the hints used is there.

Dany, the only dragonrider we are sure of, has both. She dreams a lot,which are hints, but she also interacts with the dragoneggs (concrete stuff), such as feeling they are hot.

At last: I love Tyrion, and you cannot blame me as being prejudiced. Lots of people do not believe this theory but R+L is quite accepted.

[the conquering bastard 25]

Mispost

[voodooqueen126]

I think Joanna was highly intelligent, self controlled and rational and this is why Tywin loved her.*

I do not think she was superstitious, ruled by her emotions, mewling, pious or silly.

For these reasons the only scenario that I can think of where Aerys rapes Joanna (because I doubt she would've loved this creepy eccentric weirdo at this point) and Joanna doesn't take moon tea/failing that having a wise woman cleanse it from her, is where he rapes her without her knowledge: either somehow disguised as Tywin, or whilst Joanna was unconscious.

*I suspect he viewed her as an exceptional woman.

[Woman of War]

........

For these reasons the only scenario that I can think of where Aerys rapes Joanna (because I doubt she would've loved this creepy eccentric weirdo at this point) and Joanna doesn't take moon tea/failing that having a wise woman cleanse it from her, is where he rapes her without her knowledge: either somehow disguised as Tywin, or whilst Joanna was unconscious.

Making Tyrion parallel the son of Uther Pendragon and Igraine, the parents of Arthus :D, where Uther came to Igraine disguised by Merlin's magic as her husband since there had been a prophecy that made it necessary for Arthus to be born.

Rather big shoes to fill for Tyrion! I wonder who was Merlin in that business - Varys?

[History of Westeros]

I think Joanna was highly intelligent, self controlled and rational and this is why Tywin loved her.*

I do not think she was superstitious, ruled by her emotions, mewling, pious or silly.

For these reasons the only scenario that I can think of where Aerys rapes Joanna (because I doubt she would've loved this creepy eccentric weirdo at this point) and Joanna doesn't take moon tea/failing that having a wise woman cleanse it from her, is where he rapes her without her knowledge: either somehow disguised as Tywin, or whilst Joanna was unconscious.

*I suspect he viewed her as an exceptional woman.

If we agree that Joanna was ambitious (I find it very likely myself) then she might decide that revealing to Tywin that she was raped doesn't fit her plans. His anger and need for revenge could easily threaten whatever she had in mind for the future of her house and children. She could think "telling my husband about this could mean open war with the throne". It's really not hard to see how she might not want that to happen, and thus she might conceal the truth.

No one can be certain of what Joanna would do. Even if we knew a lot about her, we can't presume to know how she'd react to a very dicey situation. and we *don't* know much about her personality at all, so we can only make guesses.

I absolutely 100% agree that Joanna was exceptional, and that was a big part of Tywin's love for her. As big as he was on pride and Lannister image, she must've been the picture of the perfect Lannister woman. Now, here I am making assumptions, but this is more straightforward I think. We know wayyyy more about Tywin than we do about Joanna.