[TWOIAF Spoilers] Tyrion, Son of the Mad King

[Chaircat Meow]

In general, how do you think (whether rape or consent) the relationship between Aerys and Joanna will be explained in the main series if they indeed sired Tyrion? Bran seeing it through a tree or something?

Combination of dragonriding (Tyrion will deduce he has Targ blood) and Barristan spilling the beans (he will suspect Aerys raped Joanna at least).

[Dorea]

I believe Joanna had an early affair with Aerys, maybe even just because Yandel is saying she did not.

I think Joanna was very ambitious, she is Cersey's mother after all, I believe she had an affair with the crown prince/ king but after realizing that he is not going to put his wife aside for her she settles for the next best thing, the hand. Why didn't Aerys loose interest in her?? the same reason why she ruled Tywin, the same reason her son is doing everything his sister tells him to and her nephew helps Cersey get rid of Robert... She is a woman who knows how to play men. I find lord Varys theory very plausible .

And why she didn't get rid of the pregnancy? She knew that Aerys would protect her and his baby and Tywin couldn't do anything about it.

but after Joannas death and the malformed baby Aerys lets Tywin raise the dwarf.

Edit: Maybe she even hoped that he would finally set his wife aside if she would give the King the 2 son he so much wanted

[Chaircat Meow]

I believe Joanna had an early affair with Aerys, maybe even just because Yandel is saying she did not.

I think Joanna was very ambitious, she is Cersey's mother after all, I believe she had an affair with the crown prince/ king but after realizing that he is not going to put his wife aside for her she settles for the next best thing, the hand. Why didn't Aerys loose interest in her?? the same reason why she ruled Tywin, the same reason her son is doing everything his sister tells him to and her nephew helps Cersey get rid of Robert... She is a woman who knows how to play men. I find lord Varys theory very plausible .

And why she didn't get rid of the pregnancy? She knew that Aerys would protect her and his baby and Tywin couldn't do anything about it.

but after Joannas death and the malformed baby Aerys lets Tywin raise the dwarf.

That makes her about as stupid as Cersei, if not a bit more so. Not much else.

[Dorea]

and why shouldn't she be as stupid as Cersei??

[Lord Varys]

Hear me Meow,

the ADwD Epilogue suggests that Kevan and Tywin intended to come to Aerys' aid even as late as the Battle of the Bells. That does not suggests a deep loathing of all Targaryens, not even Aerys. Tywin was still 'Targaryen fan boy' enough to reconcile with his childhood friend should he make the first step.

I'm also not sure if Tywin could have known for a certainty that Tyrion was not his son. After all, he could have slept with Joanna the night before or the night after (or in the same night) she had intercourse with Aerys (that is actually very likely, as, with Joanna residing in Casterly Rock, Tywin would not have had sex with her all that often, and he was still in twenties by then...

And you don't think Tywin would not have raised Joanna's son as his own if he had known the truth? Not even in a 'Promise me, Tywin...' situation? If Tywin was as devoted to Joanna as we think he was, he would have done it. Tywin raises other Lannister bastards at Casterly Rock (Joy Hill), and it would have made him the laughingstock of the Realm if he had publicly declared that the dwarf was no son of his, as everyone would have believed that he was just trying to have no dwarf son. Aerys clearly would have not acknowledged Tyrion as his son, either, as he clearly did not want to have a dwarf son, so Tywin was effectively stuck with the paternity there.

That leads me to another assumption: What if Tywin had the secret tunnel into Chataya's built while Joanna was still alive, to have a chance to have sex while she was away, and in a manner so that she could not possibly find out what he was doing...?

Mithras,

as to the revelation: I still go with Barristan Selmy on this one. Either he stood guard at Aerys' bedchamber when Joanna came, or he was one of the KG Aerys sent to the Tower of the Hand to call Joanna to his chambers. Barristan could have heard what was going on inside, or Joanna/Aerys could have spoken to him afterwards, making it clear what happened. The rest is simple math, eventually confirmed by Tyrion becoming a dragonrider.

By the way: I really hope this whole 'visions of the past' thing is not taking over the series, but is rather mostly used to uncover stuff no one can possibly know in the present (i.e. stuff concerning the Long Night and the Others). In my opinion, the Jon Snow thing should not be uncovered this way, even if Rhaegar and Lyanna were married in front of a heart tree. Bran could allude that he has seen such a vision like that in a later chapter, but I don't think the reader should share that particular vision...

[Chaircat Meow]

Hear me Meow,

the ADwD Epilogue suggests that Kevan and Tywin intended to come to Aerys' aid even as late as the Battle of the Bells. That does not suggests a deep loathing of all Targaryens, not even Aerys. Tywin was still 'Targaryen fan boy' enough to reconcile with his childhood friend should he make the first step.

Oh come on, now you are being sloppy. There is a lot of stuff about Tywin's behaviour wrt Aerys that doesn't make sense if you don't assume there is a lot going on beneath the surface. The most salient problem is why ask for Rhaegar's hand for Cersei in 275 when it is obvious Aerys will say no.

As to the DwD epilogue it does not exactly say that. Kevan thinks Tywin will have to be recalled iirc, but Tywin does not respond to summons to return and fight for the Targs when Rhaegar asks for help. Tywin had also resigned after the loss of Jaime, so why would he want his job back? There is an answer to all this I'm sure.

I don't know how you can read the woiaf and think Tywin did not hate Aerys.

And you don't think Tywin would not have raised Joanna's son as his own if he had known the truth? Not even in a 'Promise me, Tywin...' situation? If Tywin was as devoted to Joanna as we think he was, he would have done it. Tywin raises other Lannister bastards at Casterly Rock (Joy Hill), and it would have made him the laughingstock of the Realm if he had publicly declared that the dwarf was no son of his, as everyone would have believed that he was just trying to have no dwarf son. Aerys clearly would have not acknowledged Tyrion as his son, either, as he clearly did not want to have a dwarf son, so Tywin was effectively stuck with the paternity there.

Tbh, I think Pycelle was right. Tywin would not publicly take another man's 'leavings' and would not put up with Joanna if he thought she was manipulating him/liked somebody else. He is hypersensitive about that sort of thing, takes disappointment very badly and can cut people off if they displease him.

[Mithras]

Mithras,

as to the revelation: I still go with Barristan Selmy on this one. Either he stood guard at Aerys' bedchamber when Joanna came, or he was one of the KG Aerys sent to the Tower of the Hand to call Joanna to his chambers. Barristan could have heard what was going on inside, or Joanna/Aerys could have spoken to him afterwards, making it clear what happened. The rest is simple math, eventually confirmed by Tyrion becoming a dragonrider.

Not possible.

“And my father? Was there some woman he loved better than his queen?”

Ser Barristan shifted in the saddle. “Not … not loved. Mayhaps wanted is a better word, but … it was only kitchen gossip, the whispers of washerwomen and stableboys …”

If he says that it was only kitchen gossip, then he didnot have other information to confirm it because he has nothing to hide from Dany.

Another thing is that now we know that Aerys had dozens of mistresses and neither Joanna nor any other were special. Aerys dumped them according to his wildly swinging moods.

There is also this highly unlikely assumption that Barristan will live long enough to say this to Tyrion or see him riding a dragon. His chapters reek with imminent death.

[rozemarijn]

Not possible.

“And my father? Was there some woman he loved better than his queen?”

Ser Barristan shifted in the saddle. “Not … not loved. Mayhaps wanted is a better word, but … it was only kitchen gossip, the whispers of washerwomen and stableboys …”

I think this is a very important quote, it conyradicts all the suggestions Barristan is hiding something.

I have been wonderong about the following quote for the last few days. I do not have the books with me but remember when Joanna comes to Jaime in a dream and she says something like 'your father wished his son a knight and his daughter a queen' and when Jaime says 'well we are' she starts to weep.

What I am getting at: what about the third child? Maybe she only mentions the two of them because they are his only children.

Other explanations:

-she has never met Tyrion. But since she knows about what happened by with Cersei and Jaime she should know what has happened to Tyrion as well. or of course she only exists in Jaime his imagination and he has not thought that far).

-Tywin never had any future plans for Tyrion.

[Lord Varys]

Dany asked Barristan if there was a woman Aerys loved more than Rhaella. He did not ask whether Aerys ever had sex with that woman. Barristan would have to keep the secrets of the king, and he is interrupted at the end of the whole story by Hizdahr. There is more to this story than he has revealed.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I realise it is not the main purpose of the thread but for teemo the prior affair is actually not that convincing. It reads like something designed to rope the moderately astute reader into believing it, but it falls down on close inspection. We know Rhaella dismissed ladies the king turned into 'whores' but Joanna's reported affair does not fit her dismissal. She was dismissed after she was married, well after the brief reign as paramour, and long after Aerys was said to have taken her maidenhead.

Pycelle also had no reason to lie about this. People lazily assume he is just Tywin's toady so he's obviously lying but I think Pycelle only became that because he convinced himself Tywin was a good hand, 'a man who did what needed to be done,' as he said in AffC. There was therefore no need to lie about an affair between Joanna and Aerys in a report to the Citadel. He could have just said, 'shame about the hand's wife, she is not worthy of him, etc.'

We also know Aerys went through women like water, but he seems to have kept up an interest in Joanna for something like four years (presumably on and off) and still been interested in her after her marriage. That's doesn't quite fit.

It makes more sense if Aerys acquired a passion for her which she wouldn't indulge. So he invented rumours (or his lickspittles did) and drunkenly joked about lord's rite of first night at her wedding night. In 272 he carried that thought through.

Yes--this is exactly the same impression I got as I was reading the relevant portions of WOIAF. For me, the subtext seemed to be that Aerys really lusted after Joanna but was unable to have her for many years--but made repeated comments that led to rumors. I got the sense that Rhaella dismissed Joanna not because Joanna and Aerys were having an affair but because Aerys would not stop trying to get Joanna, so Rhaella sent Joanna away for her own safety. Then, in 272, Aerys has been king long enough that he decided he is just going to do what he wants, and has Joanna brought to his chamber that night and finally has Joanna and satisfies that "itch" he had been unable to scratch for so many years.

But Lord Varys makes persuasive arguments regarding the plot development aspects of having Joanna be the manipulator behind the scenes and the one person who could get away with treating Tywin that way. I just don't think we have enough information to be sure which alternative is correct, and I don't think we will unless and until there is a big reveal. GRRM does not need to foreshadow the answer to that question--he only needs to foreshadow that Tyrion is the son of Aerys (which I believe GRRM has). The details can be kept completely unrevealed until GRRM is ready to reveal them explicitly.

[Chaircat Meow]

But Lord Varys makes persuasive arguments regarding the plot development aspects of having Joanna be the manipulator behind the scenes and the one person who could get away with treating Tywin that way. I just don't think we have enough information to be sure which alternative is correct, and I don't think we will unless and until there is a big reveal. GRRM does not need to foreshadow the answer to that question--he only needs to foreshadow that Tyrion is the son of Aerys (which I believe GRRM has). The details can be kept completely unrevealed until GRRM is ready to reveal them explicitly.

Personally I do rule LV's theory out. It is very unlike GrrM to pull as big a lampshade on Tywin's character as that would. He's hypersensitive to women using sex to take advantage of Lannisters but he not only tolerates this in his own wife, he cherishes her memory after she is dead and brings up her son by Aerys as his own. Frankly, Tywin-Tyrion scenes will make no sense if that is true. Tywin needs to at least think Tyrion could be his son.

Joanna being raped and Tywin pursuing revenge for it by trying to get Cersei to marry Rhaegar and overthrow Aerys in the process makes sense of all Tywin actions from 273 on (if you suppose a few other things). He did not expect Aerys to say yes at that tourney, for instance.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Personally I do rule LV's theory out. It is very unlike GrrM to pull as big a lampshade on Tywin's character as that would. He's hypersensitive to women using sex to take advantage of Lannisters but he not only tolerates this in his own wife, he cherishes her memory after she is dead and brings up her son by Aerys as his own. Frankly, Tywin-Tyrion scenes will make no sense if that is true. Tywin needs to at least think Tyrion could be his son.

Joanna being raped and Tywin pursuing revenge for it by trying to get Cersei to marry Rhaegar and overthrow Aerys in the process makes sense of all Tywin actions from 273 on (if you suppose a few other things). He did not expect Aerys to say yes at that tourney, for instance.

Good points. I suppose I am more on the fence than you--but I am leaning in your direction. Predicting actions based primarily on the nature of the personality of a character can be dangerous, however. Tywin being the best example given the surprise we find out regarding his relationship with Shae. Didn't that action seem totally out of character? I prefer to analyze based on "clues" and "foreshadowing" rather than relying too much on arguments like "X cannot be true because Person Y would never have behaved that way if X had been true." I tend to think that line of analysis often leads to incorrect conclusions. Very few characters are so fleshed out (particularly non-POV characters) that GRRM is not free to surprise us with their actions.

The better question probably is which alternative pushes the narrative forward better or tells a more interesting story. Now that line of analysis can also go quite wrong as it is so subjective. But here--where either alternative is available to GRRM and either alternative gets to the place the story needs to be (with Aerys as the bio-dad of Tywin), I think that the "which tells a more interesting story" is probably a useful way of thinking. I see both sides, but I agree that your view seems more likely. But the idea of Joanna as master manipulator has something going for it as well.

[Chaircat Meow]

Good points. I suppose I am more on the fence than you--but I am leaning in your direction. Predicting actions based primarily on the nature of the personality of a character can be dangerous, however. Tywin being the best example given the surprise we find out regarding his relationship with Shae. Didn't that action seem totally out of character? I prefer to analyze based on "clues" and "foreshadowing" rather than relying too much on arguments like "X cannot be true because Person Y would never have behaved that way if X had been true." I tend to think that line of analysis often leads to incorrect conclusions. Very few characters are so fleshed out (particularly non-POV characters) that GRRM is not free to surprise us with their actions.

The better question probably is which alternative pushes the narrative forward better or tells a more interesting story. Now that line of analysis can also go quite wrong as it is so subjective. But here--where either alternative is available to GRRM and either alternative gets to the place the story needs to be (with Aerys as the bio-dad of Tywin), I think that the "which tells a more interesting story" is probably a useful way of thinking. I see both sides, but I agree that your view seems more likely. But the idea of Joanna as master manipulator has something going for it as well.

Not exactly, Tywin had specific reasons for going on about Tyrion's whoring. His attitude was like the one you might take to an alcoholic. He isn't allowed to drink, but you still can. It was not obvious on a first read though, so it looked like a lampshade. Personally I think I have an idea of how GrrM operates, and of how far he goes with turning readers' views of a character around. LV's theory really does not fit with that. It is altering one pretty prominent character in a very big way (Tywin) to build up an unknown and in most respects unimportant character (Joanna).

Having said that I agree with your methodology in general, I just happen to be quite convinced I have figured out how all the pieces fit together in this case. I will let the matter drop.

[chrisdaw]

Tywin and Joanna's relationship, on Tywin's side at least, is unique. GRRM has gone out of his way to established this. What Tywin is and would allow in the outside world is irrelevant to what would pass in his relationship with Joanna. He's playing a game with Tywin, building him up publicly to rip him down privately. Joanna ruled Tywin.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Not possible.

“And my father? Was there some woman he loved better than his queen?”

Ser Barristan shifted in the saddle. “Not … not loved. Mayhaps wanted is a better word, but … it was only kitchen gossip, the whispers of washerwomen and stableboys …”

If he says that it was only kitchen gossip, then he didnot have other information to confirm it because he has nothing to hide from Dany.

Another thing is that now we know that Aerys had dozens of mistresses and neither Joanna nor any other were special. Aerys dumped them according to his wildly swinging moods.

There is also this highly unlikely assumption that Barristan will live long enough to say this to Tyrion or see him riding a dragon. His chapters reek with imminent death.

Even if Lord Varys (or any poster) does not know the answer to how it will be revealed, it makes no difference at all. I doubt anyone could say with certainty how R+L=J will be revealed either save GRRM, but that does not take away form the facts, clues and hints leading everyone to believe Jon is the son of Rhaegar. When faced with accepting a theory, the argument; "For this to be true you must tell me what will happen in the next unpublished book", Is very weak and proves nothing except GRRM is not one of the posters on this thread. None of us know how it will happen, and us not knowing proves nothing.

I have said before several times that Tyrion is 100% certain about BBP's heritage based solely on the fact that the dragons like him. Why would he not apply this same reasoning to himself when the time comes? Even though it has never been brought up in the books, it seems to be common knowledge in-universe that Aerys had a thing for Joanna at one point. Dany was ignorant of it, not having grown up in Westeros, but I would bet that Tyrion has at least heard the rumors, being a very knowledgeable little guy in general.

[rozemarijn]

Even if Lord Varys (or any poster) does not know the answer to how it will be revealed, it makes no difference at all. I doubt anyone could say with certainty how R+L=J will be revealed either save GRRM, but that does not take away form the facts, clues and hints leading everyone to believe Jon is the son of Rhaegar. When faced with accepting a theory, the argument; "For this to be true you must tell me what will happen in the next unpublished book", Is very weak and proves nothing except GRRM is not one of the posters on this thread. None of us know how it will happen, and us not knowing proves nothing.

I have said before several times that Tyrion is 100% certain about BBP's heritage based solely on the fact that the dragons like him. Why would he not apply this same reasoning to himself when the time comes? Even though it has never been brought up in the books, it seems to be common knowledge in-universe that Aerys had a thing for Joanna at one point. Dany was ignorant of it, not having grown up in Westeros, but I would bet that Tyrion has at least heard the rumors, being a very knowledgeable little guy in general.

Only a shame that Barristan, who did live with the king, is also ignorant of it...

Tyrion does not know, he thinks a lot about his father and something like this would havd came up while regelcying upon his father-son relationship.

There are many possibilitirs for R+J, Bloodraven, Bran, Reed. For A+J we only have the fact that Tyrion might think when he climbs upon a dragon. And we have gossip, mind you there is also gossip about Ashara Dayne being Jons mum...

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Only a shame that Barristan, who did live with the king, is also ignorant of it...

Tyrion does not know, he thinks a lot about his father and something like this would havd came up while regelcying upon his father-son relationship.

There are many possibilitirs for R+J, Bloodraven, Bran, Reed. For A+J we only have the fact that Tyrion might think when he climbs upon a dragon. And we have gossip, mind you there is also gossip about Ashara Dayne being Jons mum...

And you know that how? Does Tyrion ever think about his mother at all besides killing her?

Barristan is ignorant of what exactly? confirmed intercourse? Yes that's true, but he knew something was going on as he found it relevant enough to speak it to Dany out loud, when we know that there are literally hundreds of other things he should/could spend his time telling her. If you look at Barristan's conversations with Dany about Westeros history...they are few and far between, but He tells her the KOTLT story, tells her a bit about her father being crazy, and he tells her about Aerys and Joanna. Those other two things are about as important as facts can get in these books, but the thing about A+J is just a throw away right??? Why would GRRM do that? Why would he make Barristan give her such vital info twice, but the third time it's just total BS?

[rozemarijn]

And you know that how? Does Tyrion ever think about his mother at all besides killing her?

Barristan is ignorant of what exactly? confirmed intercourse? Yes that's true, but he knew something was going on as he found it relevant enough to speak it to Dany out loud, when we know that there are literally hundreds of other things he should/could spend his time telling her. If you look at Barristan's conversations with Dany about Westeros history...they are few and far between, but He tells her the KOTLT story, tells her a bit about her father being crazy, and he tells her about Aerys and Joanna. Those other two things are about as important as facts can get in these books, but the thing about A+J is just a throw away right??? Why would GRRM do that? Why would he make Barristan give her such vital info twice, but the third time it's just total BS?

Red herring, that's why! He doubts about the accuracy of this rumors and so should we.

[Rhaechyll Targaryen]

A red herring for what though? I fail (again) at understanding this red herring explanation against the theory.

It's not a red herring for A+J=J & C since TWOIAF pretty much debunked that one. Is it to make us think Tyrion will ride a dragon only to say haha, just kidding? What else would the hints about Tyrion being a bastard son of the Mad King be a red herring for?

I agree that it makes little sense for Barristan to talk to Dany about three important things but one of them just happens not to be true yet makes IMO total sense when put into context with the other information we have on the concerned characters.

[Mithras]

A red herring for what though?

A red herring for

1. Targ blood is necessary to ride dragons

2. Three riders = three heads