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[TWOIAF Spoilers] Tyrion, Son of the Mad King


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I'm sure other people have already arrived at this small point but it suddenly occurs to me that if this theory is true, wouldn't it invalidate the marriage between Tyrion and Sansa?

I wonder how that even works legally. Say Barristan gives Tyrion the info that allows him to figure out that he wasn't the biological son of Tywin and is actually a Targaryen bastard. Is his word good enough to keep him from being considered an heir of Tywin's any longer? (I realize he's out of the running anyway but let's pretend for a moment that this isn't an issue.) Would a monarch have to take away Tyrion's status of being a son of Casterly Rock?

After Tyrion finds out about everything would it be better for him to pretend to be a Lannister on both sides while keeping the truth about his Targaryen blood to himself or is this information that should be made known to the realm in general?

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1. Having a head hurting when you wake up, is not dreaming. :) A hangover is not a dream. "dragons fighting in his skull" is Tyrion's way of saying "someone is knocking a hammer on my head.." Massive hangover.

2. I'm not saying Tyrion is associated with dragons... But there's a difference in dreaming about dragons, and having Targaryen Dragon dreams.

3. Where is it stated that the first three nights he is dreaming of dragons? Those were not amongs the quotes you provided?

Four dreams... And to be quite honest, Tyrion dreaming of having a dragon of his own doesn't necessarily mean that he dreamt of them while he slept. I'm not sure how to express it in words (so I hope you understand), but I mean more in the sense of "dreaming to achieve your goal"... daydreaming and such.

4. Why associate Tyrion with dragons this heavily? Because he's going to be in the middle of the dragons, as Moqorro's quote I provided above shows.

5. That would entirely depend on the dream, I'd say.

6. Daeron drank because of his dreams... I can't recall it stated that he, nor any other Targaryen who is known to have had the Targaryen Dragon Dreams, had any trouble sleeping..

Could, definitly not should..

7. “Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all.”

Moqorro first speaks of dragons (be it 2 or 6), and then about a man (Tyrion).

Could be it is supposed to read as you say, but that's not the way I read it.

8. I'm not saying that it would have been impossible for Aerys to have had a bastard, just because. I feel that, where Aerys and Joanna are concerned together, taking in Tywin as a factor, there would be only a very small chance for Aerys to have fathered a bastard on Joanna..

1. Ok but that is just your opinion, since we know Tyrion does in fact dream of dragons sometimes. And we have never heard anyone else refer to a hangover as 'dragons fighting in my skull" I mean it is not a commonly used phrase. PLus.....the rest of the quote goes as follows:

"The next day he awoke with dragons fighting in his skull. Griff took one look at him retching over the side of the poleboat, and said, "You are done with drink"

"Wine helps me sleep," Tyrion had protested. Wine drowns my dreams he might have said.

--So he is talking about dreams here, talking about the dreams he has that keep him awake, so he tries to drown them with wine, and the only dream subject he has given us here is 'dragons'.

2. Yes I completely agree he is not having 'prophetic dreams' --- although, to a point you made earlier, sometimes the Prophetic Targ dreams are about people and sometimes they are about dragons, like both animals and people show up in their dreams, much like the Toland girls dream, "Everywhere the dragons danced, people died."

Anyway Tyrion is not having any prophetic dreams here, but my point is that he IS having dreams about dragons, which is clearly a hint he is a Targaryen, even if it is not a full-blown prophetic dream.

3. ok I checked again, I was thinking that the dreams were night after night on the Shy Maid, but I was mistaken, On the Shy Maid he dreams of his father pulling him down to drown several nights in a row and Stony arms reaching hands up for the sky. He has the dreams several nights when he is on the litter with Illyrio. Below I have the dragon talk in order. First he thinks of when he used to dream of dragons as a child in Casterly Rock, we know he is speaking of actual dreams (not daydreaming) because he says "Perhaps Ill dream of dragons' as he remembers "riding dragons through the nights'---this is referring to dreams he has had (nights), I think we can all agree on that. So he wants to get drunk and dream of dragons like when he was a kid. The next day he wakes up and says that he 'dreamed about the queen'--meaning Dany, that she 'fed him to her dragons'. Who knows if he is actually joking here or not, he was hoping to dream of dragons, then the next day he wakes up and says he has just dreamt of dragons. I believe him. Then that day he 'Slept, woke, drank.' And that night is when he has the 'Battle on the Hills of Westeros dream.

I also like how Illyrio specifically mentions the word 'prophetic' right in the middle of all these dreams of dragons, like he is giving us a hint.

day 1 ‘When the magister drifted off to sleep with the wine jar at his elbow, Tyrion crept across the pillows to work it loose from its fleshy prison and pour himself a cup. He drained it down, and yawned, and filled it once again. If I drink enough wine, he told himself, perhaps I’ll dream of dragons.’ When he was still a lonely child in the depths of Casterly Rock, he oft rode dragons through the nights, pretending he was some lost Targaryen Princeling, or a Valyrian dragonlord soaring high o’er fields and mountains. Once when his uncles asked him what gift he wanted for his name day, he begged them for a dragon. “It wouldn’t need to be a big one. It could be little, like I am.” His uncle Gerion thought that was the funniest thing he had ever heard, but his uncle Tygett said, “The last dragon died a century ago, lad.” That had seemed so monstrously unfair that the boy had cried himself to sleep that night. Yet if the lord of cheese could be believed the Mad King’s daughter had hatched three living dragons. Two more than even a Targaryen should require.’…..When he woke, dawn had come…… “I dreamed about the queen,” he said. “I was on my knees before her, swearing my allegiance, but she mistook me for my brother, Jaime, and fed me to her dragons.” “Let us hope this dream was not prophetic.”

day 2 ‘The wine, the food, the sun, the sway of the litter, the buzzing of the flies, all conspired to make Tyrion sleepy. So he slept, woke, drank.

day 3 ‘That night Tyrion Lannister dreamed of a battle that turned the hills of Westeros as red as blood. He was in the midst of it, dealing death with an axe as big as he was, fighting side by side with Barristan the bold and Bittersteel as dragons wheeled across the sky above them. In the dream he had two heads, both noseless. His father led the enemy, so he slew him once again. Then he killed his brother, Jaime, hacking at his face until it was a red ruin, laughing every time he struck a blow. Only when the fight was finished did he realize that his second head was weeping. When he woke his stunted legs were stiff as iron.'

4. To me that is not a good enough reason, lots of people are going to associated with dragons, not just Tyrion, yet most of the emphasis is on him in his chapters, not even on Dany hardly at all in DwD, mostly on Tyrion. None on fAegon.

5. I disagree. if Jon had ever dreamed of a dragon it would be listed int he OP of R+L=J all 130 versions. LIke for instance when Jon says "I wish i had a dragon or 3 to help defend the wall", If he had said, "Last night I dreamed that 3 dragons came to wall and saved us."---You cannot tell me with a straight face that this would not be proof that he is Rhaegars son. I would certainly see it that way, and I think the majority of others would as well.

6. I need to go look at D&E and see about it, I can't recall either. You are probably right about this one though. Still I think Tyrion and Dareon have some similarities, Drunk all the time, depressed, having trouble with their dreams.

7. Yes we can interpret it differently. :)

8. GRRM had a perfect opportunity to shut the door on this theory like he did with A+J=C&J in TWOIAF. He specifically put Aerys and Joanna apart from each other during the twins conception, and specifically put them together (around the time) of Tyrion's conception. He did not have to do this. If this theory was wrong or a red herring it could already be ended. But instead what did he do? He shows us they definitely had a relationship, sexual in nature. Enough to piss off Rhaella enough to send Joanna away (even though they had been friends most of their lives). Then he brings Joanna back to KL one last time for the 10 year anniversary party, Aerys makes a comment about her breasts, then the next day Tywin tries to resign, they leave for CR, she dies giving birth to TYrion sometime in the next year. I would say this is all written out to conclude Aerys is the father. Why else would it all be there? this would be the longest, and most involved Red Herring thus far in the novels, and I don't believe that for a second. Occam's Razor right? The simplest answer is usually the correct one. Well in this situation and all the hints given, A+J=T is the simplest answer. To say it is not is to ignore almost everythign about Aerys in WOIAF and given that he, out of all the Targ kings, comes into play more in ASOIAF than any others, his life and his relationships are highly important to the 5 main novels, so I think they are an extremely important part of WOIAF.

ETA: Another thing I just thought of that I forgot to mention earlier. You say that 'dragons fighting in his skull' is just a metaphor for a hangover. Well in earlier DwD chapters, Tyrion also has a hangover, but describes it differently

‘When he stirred again, his head felt like to burst.’-- I just wanted to point that out :)

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A question.. if Tyrion is a Targaryen, he'd be a dragon, yet Moqorro makes a distinction, between the dragons that he sees, and Tyrion. Which would make Tyrion not a dragon.

Moqorro's quote is very ambiguous. You can interpret it in your way, but it can also be interpreted that Moqorro was describing all the dragons that he was seeing in the flames, until he focused on the one standing right next to him. The "and you" leaves a lot of wiggle room for Martin to go either way, no doubt exactly as he intended.

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I'm sure other people have already arrived at this small point but it suddenly occurs to me that if this theory is true, wouldn't it invalidate the marriage between Tyrion and Sansa?

I wonder how that even works legally. Say Barristan gives Tyrion the info that allows him to figure out that he wasn't the biological son of Tywin and is actually a Targaryen bastard. Is his word good enough to keep him from being considered an heir of Tywin's any longer? (I realize he's out of the running anyway but let's pretend for a moment that this isn't an issue.) Would a monarch have to take away Tyrion's status of being a son of Casterly Rock?

After Tyrion finds out about everything would it be better for him to pretend to be a Lannister on both sides while keeping the truth about his Targaryen blood to himself or is this information that should be made known to the realm in general?

If Tyrion swears allegiance to Dany, she would be the ultimate judge of all that. If he rides a dragon, to keep the Targaryen magic alive (note that Nettles is officially considered to a dragonseed, so either she is or she is not but the Targaryens made sure she was believed to be) she'll have reasons to make sure Tyrion is wide and far considered to be a Targaryen. If she wants and if he wants it, she can still easily make him lord of CR, through his bloodlink with Joanna and through military might (pushing aside Tywin's line in favour of Joanna's direct line).

But if Tyrion is Dany's half-brother, she could come to see him as her heir as long as she doesn't birth a living child (and Mirri has given her reason to doubt that may happen). In that case, CR could seem like small fry when Tyrion could potentially end up on the Iron Throne (assuming Dany and/or Jon stay childless and neither end up ruling longterm, for whatever reason).

The potential for such a situation could arguably give Dany a reason to push for Tyrion to marry and get offspring. Since Tyrion is not gonna be attractive to any woman and a marriage with a random common woman (like, say, Penny) is apparently "not done" in Westeros (short of getting disinherited), a continued mariage to Sansa might not look that bad anymore from a political POV. With Sansa's ties to the North, the Riverlands and the Vale, 3 of the 4 regions who originally rebelled against Aerys, potentially it could help reunite the kingdom if a child of her and Tyrion would take the throne (after Dany or Tyrion himself). Granted, he could marry another girl of (very) high birth but would Margaery or Arianne or Arya be more willing or more suited than Sansa?

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I am sorry but claiming that Tyrion had 5 Targaryen dragon dreams is a huge stretch, an obvious example of confirmation bias. None of them can be counted as a dragon dream.

If you would read the posts more thoroughly you would know that I never claimed he had 5 'Dragon Dreams'. What I have been saying is that he had dreams involving a dragon at least 5 different times, with one of them possibly being of the prophetic nature, the one with Bittersteel.

I am saying that we have only one character who seems to be constantly having the animal called a dragon in his dreams during his whole life. No other characters do except known Targaryens. What is the literary purpose of this for 5 straight books?

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If you would read the posts more thoroughly you would know that I never claimed he had 5 'Dragon Dreams'. What I have been saying is that he had dreams involving a dragon at least 5 different times, with one of them possibly being of the prophetic nature, the one with Bittersteel.

1. Where is the dragon in that dream?

2. Are all the people who see prophetic dreams Targs? What about Jaime and Cersei and Theon?

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1. Where is the dragon in that dream?

2. Are all the people who see prophetic dreams Targs? What about Jaime and Cersei and Theon?

Good lord!!!

‘That night Tyrion Lannister dreamed of a battle that turned the hills of Westeros as red as blood. He was in the midst of it, dealing death with an axe as big as he was, fighting side by side with Barristan the bold and Bittersteel as dragons wheeled across the sky above them.

You will have to be more specific about #2. Please show me examples of C&J and Theon having dreams with dragons in them, otherwise they are just dreams, like everyone has.

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Good lord!!!

‘That night Tyrion Lannister dreamed of a battle that turned the hills of Westeros as red as blood. He was in the midst of it, dealing death with an axe as big as he was, fighting side by side with Barristan the bold and Bittersteel as dragons wheeled across the sky above them.

This is not a prophetic dream. When he dreamed this, he was going to meet the GC, Barristan, Dany and her dragons. Then, they would go to Westeros together. This is nothing like the dream of Teora.

In Targ dreams, dragons do not look like decorations. They interact with the dreamer.

You will have to be more specific about #2. Please show me examples of C&J and Theon having dreams with dragons in them, otherwise they are just dreams, like everyone has.

Jaime and Theon definitely saw prophetic dreams. I am not so sure about Cersei though.

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Theon was at "the feast of the dead" in dream Winterfell. He also saw Robb and Grey Wind enter, bleeding from a dozen wounds.



Jaime had that strange dream of the cavern in/under Casterly Rock.



I don't know if Tyrion could be said to have "dragon dreams", but his POV surely thinks/dreams about dragons a whole lot, probably more than any other but Dany.


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Theon was at "the feast of the dead" in dream Winterfell. He also saw Robb and Grey Wind enter, bleeding from a dozen wounds.

Jaime had that strange dream of the cavern in/under Casterly Rock.

I don't know if Tyrion could be said to have "dragon dreams", but his POV surely thinks/dreams about dragons a whole lot, probably more than any other but Dany.

TYrion definitely dreams of dragons more than Dany does. IIRC she has 2 or 3 total, like I said tyrion has 5, plus the 2 quotes that he dreamed of dragons often as a child.

I am not trying to make any arguments about which dreams are 'prophetic' or not, even if some are trying to derail the thread with talk of it.

I am saying the same thing I have been the whole time. Tyrion has too many dreams about dragons for it to be a superfluous fact.

.......wait, I thought it was Dany who had the 'feast of the dead' dream.

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.......wait, I thought it was Dany who had the 'feast of the dead' dream.

Dany saw a similar vision in the House of the Undying, Theon had a nightmare about it. Given what happened to Robb and Grey Wind, his version was clearly as prophetic as the HotU vision.

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This is not a prophetic dream. When he dreamed this, he was going to meet the GC, Barristan, Dany and her dragons. Then, they would go to Westeros together. This is nothing like the dream of Teora.

In Targ dreams, dragons do not look like decorations. They interact with the dreamer.

Jaime and Theon definitely saw prophetic dreams. I am not so sure about Cersei though.

In fact, it would seem they represent a person..

1. Ok but that is just your opinion, since we know Tyrion does in fact dream of dragons sometimes. And we have never heard anyone else refer to a hangover as 'dragons fighting in my skull" I mean it is not a commonly used phrase. PLus.....the rest of the quote goes as follows:

"The next day he awoke with dragons fighting in his skull. Griff took one look at him retching over the side of the poleboat, and said, "You are done with drink"

"Wine helps me sleep," Tyrion had protested. Wine drowns my dreams he might have said.

--So he is talking about dreams here, talking about the dreams he has that keep him awake, so he tries to drown them with wine, and the only dream subject he has given us here is 'dragons'.

Is there any other character to describe hangovers?

2. Yes I completely agree he is not having 'prophetic dreams' --- although, to a point you made earlier, sometimes the Prophetic Targ dreams are about people and sometimes they are about dragons, like both animals and people show up in their dreams, much like the Toland girls dream, "Everywhere the dragons danced, people died."

Anyway Tyrion is not having any prophetic dreams here, but my point is that he IS having dreams about dragons, which is clearly a hint he is a Targaryen, even if it is not a full-blown prophetic dream.

That's not what I meant, that they could be about actual dragons... I suggested possibile dream-scenario's for Aerion's dream.. And one of them indeed was that Aerion dreamt about the birth of Drogon, Rhaegal and Viserion - though IIRC, I also pointed out already one error with that one.. Aerion should have dreamt about multiple dragons, not one.

Looking over all prophetic Targaryen dreams concerning dragons, it would seem that we are talking about dreams where a dragon represents a human..

Is association with dragons enough to say someone is a Targaryen? No, of course not. All it says is that said character is going to be involved with dragons, in whatever way.

Tyrion's entire Dance with Dragons arc is about dragons (Aegon, Dany, her three dragons)... so of course, they will feature in his chapters...

3. ok I checked again, I was thinking that the dreams were night after night on the Shy Maid, but I was mistaken, On the Shy Maid he dreams of his father pulling him down to drown several nights in a row and Stony arms reaching hands up for the sky. He has the dreams several nights when he is on the litter with Illyrio. Below I have the dragon talk in order. First he thinks of when he used to dream of dragons as a child in Casterly Rock, we know he is speaking of actual dreams (not daydreaming) because he says "Perhaps Ill dream of dragons' as he remembers "riding dragons through the nights'---this is referring to dreams he has had (nights), I think we can all agree on that. So he wants to get drunk and dream of dragons like when he was a kid. The next day he wakes up and says that he 'dreamed about the queen'--meaning Dany, that she 'fed him to her dragons'. Who knows if he is actually joking here or not, he was hoping to dream of dragons, then the next day he wakes up and says he has just dreamt of dragons. I believe him. Then that day he 'Slept, woke, drank.' And that night is when he has the 'Battle on the Hills of Westeros dream.

I also like how Illyrio specifically mentions the word 'prophetic' right in the middle of all these dreams of dragons, like he is giving us a hint.

day 1 ‘When the magister drifted off to sleep with the wine jar at his elbow, Tyrion crept across the pillows to work it loose from its fleshy prison and pour himself a cup. He drained it down, and yawned, and filled it once again. If I drink enough wine, he told himself, perhaps I’ll dream of dragons.’ When he was still a lonely child in the depths of Casterly Rock, he oft rode dragons through the nights, pretending he was some lost Targaryen Princeling, or a Valyrian dragonlord soaring high o’er fields and mountains. Once when his uncles asked him what gift he wanted for his name day, he begged them for a dragon. “It wouldn’t need to be a big one. It could be little, like I am.” His uncle Gerion thought that was the funniest thing he had ever heard, but his uncle Tygett said, “The last dragon died a century ago, lad.” That had seemed so monstrously unfair that the boy had cried himself to sleep that night. Yet if the lord of cheese could be believed the Mad King’s daughter had hatched three living dragons. Two more than even a Targaryen should require.’…..When he woke, dawn had come…… “I dreamed about the queen,” he said. “I was on my knees before her, swearing my allegiance, but she mistook me for my brother, Jaime, and fed me to her dragons.” “Let us hope this dream was not prophetic.”

day 2 ‘The wine, the food, the sun, the sway of the litter, the buzzing of the flies, all conspired to make Tyrion sleepy. So he slept, woke, drank.

day 3 ‘That night Tyrion Lannister dreamed of a battle that turned the hills of Westeros as red as blood. He was in the midst of it, dealing death with an axe as big as he was, fighting side by side with Barristan the bold and Bittersteel as dragons wheeled across the sky above them. In the dream he had two heads, both noseless. His father led the enemy, so he slew him once again. Then he killed his brother, Jaime, hacking at his face until it was a red ruin, laughing every time he struck a blow. Only when the fight was finished did he realize that his second head was weeping. When he woke his stunted legs were stiff as iron.'

"he oft rode dragons through the nights, pretending he was some lost Targaryen Princeling, or a Valyrian dragonlord " this sounds like a child at play, not like a child dreaming in his sleep... HGow can you pretend in your dreams?

The second day (or at least, that quote) contains no dragons.

The third quote, I've already described what my thoughts about it are.

4. To me that is not a good enough reason, lots of people are going to associated with dragons, not just Tyrion, yet most of the emphasis is on him in his chapters, not even on Dany hardly at all in DwD, mostly on Tyrion. None on fAegon.

Tyrion's entire ADWD arc is about dragons.. How can those not enter his thoughts?

And Aegon can not truly be compared to Dany and Tyrion.. we're not looking in his head, yet we are looking in the heads of Dany and Tyrion.. we can't see the boy's inner thoughts..

5. I disagree. if Jon had ever dreamed of a dragon it would be listed int he OP of R+L=J all 130 versions. LIke for instance when Jon says "I wish i had a dragon or 3 to help defend the wall", If he had said, "Last night I dreamed that 3 dragons came to wall and saved us."---You cannot tell me with a straight face that this would not be proof that he is Rhaegars son. I would certainly see it that way, and I think the majority of others would as well.

Again, it would depend on the dream.. "I with I had a dragon or so to help defend the Wall" would mean barely anything.. a small short joke, nothing more.

"Last night I dreamed that three dragons came to defend the Wall" would be entirely different.. Did Jon foresee the future?

Would Jon have dreamed/would Jon dream something like "And in his dreams, he could see a dragon, black as the night, rising from the Wall, and gazing north, screaming.." that would then be a dream of himself, personating a dragon.. That would count as a hint towards Jon's parentage.. "I wish I had a dragon..." no, it wouldn't... In fact, I've never seen anyone use it in an argument..

“The Lysene pirate? Some say he has returned to his old haunts, this is so. And Lord Redwyne’s war fleet creeps through the Broken Arm as well. On its way home, no doubt. But these men and their ships are well-known to us. No, these other sails … from farther east, perhaps … one hears queer talk of dragons.”

“Would that we had one here. A dragon might warm things up a bit.”

8. GRRM had a perfect opportunity to shut the door on this theory like he did with A+J=C&J in TWOIAF. He specifically put Aerys and Joanna apart from each other during the twins conception, and specifically put them together (around the time) of Tyrion's conception. He did not have to do this. If this theory was wrong or a red herring it could already be ended. But instead what did he do? He shows us they definitely had a relationship, sexual in nature. Enough to piss off Rhaella enough to send Joanna away (even though they had been friends most of their lives). Then he brings Joanna back to KL one last time for the 10 year anniversary party, Aerys makes a comment about her breasts, then the next day Tywin tries to resign, they leave for CR, she dies giving birth to TYrion sometime in the next year. I would say this is all written out to conclude Aerys is the father. Why else would it all be there? this would be the longest, and most involved Red Herring thus far in the novels, and I don't believe that for a second. Occam's Razor right? The simplest answer is usually the correct one. Well in this situation and all the hints given, A+J=T is the simplest answer. To say it is not is to ignore almost everythign about Aerys in WOIAF and given that he, out of all the Targ kings, comes into play more in ASOIAF than any others, his life and his relationships are highly important to the 5 main novels, so I think they are an extremely important part of WOIAF.

Does he think there is a theory whose door needs to be shut? He doesn't frequent forums, so who knows?

Let's assume that he is aware, however, that there is a theory concerning Tyrion's parentage.. Why would he shut that one down? Why would he want to shut any theory down?

Joanna and Rhaella had not been friends all of their lives. Joanna had come to KL in 259AC, and was send away in 263AC.. That's five year. And were they friends? That's never specified.

Just for the sake of it, because I feel I'm not remembering them all and thus feel like I shouldn't start to discuss it before having a full list.. What are all the hints for Tyrion being a Targaryen?

ETA: Another thing I just thought of that I forgot to mention earlier. You say that 'dragons fighting in his skull' is just a metaphor for a hangover. Well in earlier DwD chapters, Tyrion also has a hangover, but describes it differently

‘When he stirred again, his head felt like to burst.’-- I just wanted to point that out :)

Ok, here he describes it differently... Still.. That was before talk of dragons entered his arc.. What is going on in your life, will influence your thougts, whether you realise it or not.. If dragons are on your mind a lot, you are more like to start using them in thought, than when you aren't having dragons on your mind.

A question for you :)

Is everyone who is being associated with dragons a secret Targaryen?

Wun Wun began to laugh. A giant’s laughter could put to shame a dragon’s roar.

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Not all 'dragon dreams' are prophetic dreams in which the dragons represent people with Valyrian blood.



A point in ADwD - and with Tyrion in general - is that we got very seldom a detailed description of his dreams. Out of my head I only remember the Tysha dream from ACoK following the Battle on the Blackwater.



Most of his other dreams are short summaries from what he remembers after waking up.



We cannot use any of that as textual evidence to disprove the possibility that Tyrion had dragon dreams the way, say, Aegon V did (who apparently did never have prophetic dreams of the Daeron or Daemon II type).



In that context, we should also keep in mind that Tyrion is very educated and not really into magic and that whole subject, predisposing him to not interpret any dreams he had in a prophetic sense.


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In fact, it would seem they represent a person..

Is there any other character to describe hangovers?

That's not what I meant, that they could be about actual dragons... I suggested possibile dream-scenario's for Aerion's dream.. And one of them indeed was that Aerion dreamt about the birth of Drogon, Rhaegal and Viserion - though IIRC, I also pointed out already one error with that one.. Aerion should have dreamt about multiple dragons, not one.

Looking over all prophetic Targaryen dreams concerning dragons, it would seem that we are talking about dreams where a dragon represents a human..

Is association with dragons enough to say someone is a Targaryen? No, of course not. All it says is that said character is going to be involved with dragons, in whatever way.

Tyrion's entire Dance with Dragons arc is about dragons (Aegon, Dany, her three dragons)... so of course, they will feature in his chapters...

"he oft rode dragons through the nights, pretending he was some lost Targaryen Princeling, or a Valyrian dragonlord " this sounds like a child at play, not like a child dreaming in his sleep... HGow can you pretend in your dreams?

The second day (or at least, that quote) contains no dragons.

The third quote, I've already described what my thoughts about it are.

Tyrion's entire ADWD arc is about dragons.. How can those not enter his thoughts?

And Aegon can not truly be compared to Dany and Tyrion.. we're not looking in his head, yet we are looking in the heads of Dany and Tyrion.. we can't see the boy's inner thoughts..

Again, it would depend on the dream.. "I with I had a dragon or so to help defend the Wall" would mean barely anything.. a small short joke, nothing more.

"Last night I dreamed that three dragons came to defend the Wall" would be entirely different.. Did Jon foresee the future?

Would Jon have dreamed/would Jon dream something like "And in his dreams, he could see a dragon, black as the night, rising from the Wall, and gazing north, screaming.." that would then be a dream of himself, personating a dragon.. That would count as a hint towards Jon's parentage.. "I wish I had a dragon..." no, it wouldn't... In fact, I've never seen anyone use it in an argument..

“The Lysene pirate? Some say he has returned to his old haunts, this is so. And Lord Redwyne’s war fleet creeps through the Broken Arm as well. On its way home, no doubt. But these men and their ships are well-known to us. No, these other sails … from farther east, perhaps … one hears queer talk of dragons.”

“Would that we had one here. A dragon might warm things up a bit.”

Does he think there is a theory whose door needs to be shut? He doesn't frequent forums, so who knows?

Let's assume that he is aware, however, that there is a theory concerning Tyrion's parentage.. Why would he shut that one down? Why would he want to shut any theory down?

Joanna and Rhaella had not been friends all of their lives. Joanna had come to KL in 259AC, and was send away in 263AC.. That's five year. And were they friends? That's never specified.

Just for the sake of it, because I feel I'm not remembering them all and thus feel like I shouldn't start to discuss it before having a full list.. What are all the hints for Tyrion being a Targaryen?

Ok, here he describes it differently... Still.. That was before talk of dragons entered his arc.. What is going on in your life, will influence your thougts, whether you realise it or not.. If dragons are on your mind a lot, you are more like to start using them in thought, than when you aren't having dragons on your mind.

A question for you :)

Is everyone who is being associated with dragons a secret Targaryen?

Wun Wun began to laugh. A giant’s laughter could put to shame a dragon’s roar.

I think we just see most of these points differently, as we are only talking about opinions now anyway. I guess we will just have to wait and see what happens and who is right

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Also, on a side note, most Targaryen kings were players, had many bastards, the family is sort of famous for having bastards. Aerys, in his youth, was just as blonde and handsome as any of them, why is he the only one who cannot have a bastard? the Targ family tree is littered with them, Tyrion just happens to be the last one.

Was musing a bit on this, and while I agree that royal bastardy does not seem to be unusual, what DOES seem to be unusual is the total absence of living ones via Aerys II.

(Disclaimer: I do not have ASOIAF or WB available for quoting at the moment, so please correct me where I state something that isn’t right.)

Of course we have recount of Aegon’s numerous bastards Great and otherwise, other Targ products from the wrong side of the blanket here and there, current-universe knowledge of Robert’s brood, and the WB suggests that the Mad King had his share of mistresses from all lands and walks as well. However, there are no mentions of any offspring, even though his infidelity career seemingly spanned 13 years and purportedly didn’t end until after the death of Jaehaerys. The only children we’re told of (by a pro-Baratheon/pro-Lannister maester to boot) are those produced by Rhaella. Furthermore, it seems odd to me that there is no mention of the mistresses either, highborn or common, save for the one that he had executed upon suspicion of poisoning Jaehaerys in 274. Joanna is the only paramour we know by name, and the saving grace of her marriage to Tywin is probably what earned her a mere dismissal from court instead of another fate.

In addition, there is the still-unexplained throwaway line in AGOT by Ned to Robert regarding standing up to the Mad King to “put an end to the murder of children.” (There is also a show mention by Robert of Aerys “murdering women and babies” but I use that for reference support only.) The WB notes that by 270 Aerys believed that Rhaella was being unfaithful and all her failed pregnancies happened because the gods would not want a bastard to sit the Iron Throne.

Based on the above, it is my conclusion that someone in the Targaryen royal family (and I suspect Aerys himself) was ordering/overseeing the murder of his bastard children, and possibly their mothers as well. (We see this repeated with Cersei in regard to Robert’s spawn too.) Not only are these bastard children an embarrassment to the IT, they are a danger to it….especially given Rhaegar as the only heir thus far. Should something happen to him…..well, we know the Dance, so to speak.

Whether the above is true or not, however, it still doesn’t really matter whether Joanna's pregnancy by Aerys is via consensual sex or rape - It is a no-win for Tywin either way. What matters is that presumably Joanna herself can’t be certain of paternity at time of conception so must wait until the child is born. If the child is born with Lannister looks, all is well. If the child born with Targaryen looks, though….

1) If the sex was consensual, she has to confess to Tywin, bring shame to House Lannister, and risk the life of her child (and maybe even herself). Tywin punishing Joanna for her infidelity and perhaps killing the babe himself announces to the world that Aerys cuckolded him again. Aerys having the child later executed implies the same.

2) If the sex was rape, then she has to confess to Tywin that Aerys dishonored him, bring shame to House Lannister, and risk the life of her child (and maybe even herself.) Should Tywin bring grievance and rise against Aerys for raping his wife, Tywin puts Joanna squarely in Aerys’ sights and brings dire threat upon the woman he loves. You can’t accuse a king of rape and live to tell about it. Tywin later murdering the child raises too much suspicion, so most likely he would have to remain silent and tolerate Aerys’ bastard offspring to preserve his own name (until that grievous “hunting accident” that would happen later, I’m sure).

Joanna really had him over a barrel here. Even if it WAS consensual, she can still claim rape and there is nothing short of an uprising that Tywin can do about it without bringing ruin to his house.

When Tyrion is born a dwarf with indeterminate features and Joanna dies, Tywin has two options: murder what may be his trueborn son in cold blood and become a kinslayer, or claim the son he’s pretty sure isn’t his own but can’t swear to (“I have no proof that you are not mine”) and quash the rumors of the blight on House Lannister perpetrated by Aerys Targaryen. It’s a bitter pill. Tywin's pride rules all, so he chose the latter.

Just some thoughts....this may be garbage.

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Was musing a bit on this, and while I agree that royal bastardy does not seem to be unusual, what DOES seem to be unusual is the total absence of living ones via Aerys II.

(Disclaimer: I do not have ASOIAF or WB available for quoting at the moment, so please correct me where I state something that isn’t right.)

Of course we have recount of Aegon’s numerous bastards Great and otherwise, other Targ products from the wrong side of the blanket here and there, current-universe knowledge of Robert’s brood, and the WB suggests that the Mad King had his share of mistresses from all lands and walks as well. However, there are no mentions of any offspring, even though his infidelity career seemingly spanned 13 years and purportedly didn’t end until after the death of Jaehaerys. The only children we’re told of (by a pro-Baratheon/pro-Lannister maester to boot) are those produced by Rhaella. Furthermore, it seems odd to me that there is no mention of the mistresses either, highborn or common, save for the one that he had executed upon suspicion of poisoning Jaehaerys in 274. Joanna is the only paramour we know by name, and the saving grace of her marriage to Tywin is probably what earned her a mere dismissal from court instead of another fate.

In addition, there is the still-unexplained throwaway line in AGOT by Ned to Robert regarding standing up to the Mad King to “put an end to the murder of children.” (There is also a show mention by Robert of Aerys “murdering women and babies” but I use that for reference support only.) The WB notes that by 270 Aerys believed that Rhaella was being unfaithful and all her failed pregnancies happened because the gods would not want a bastard to sit the Iron Throne.

Based on the above, it is my conclusion that someone in the Targaryen royal family (and I suspect Aerys himself) was ordering/overseeing the murder of his bastard children, and possibly their mothers as well. (We see this repeated with Cersei in regard to Robert’s spawn too.) Not only are these bastard children an embarrassment to the IT, they are a danger to it….especially given Rhaegar as the only heir thus far. Should something happen to him…..well, we know the Dance, so to speak.

Whether the above is true or not, however, it still doesn’t really matter whether Joanna's pregnancy by Aerys is via consensual sex or rape - It is a no-win for Tywin either way. What matters is that presumably Joanna herself can’t be certain of paternity at time of conception so must wait until the child is born. If the child is born with Lannister looks, all is well. If the child born with Targaryen looks, though….

1) If the sex was consensual, she has to confess to Tywin, bring shame to House Lannister, and risk the life of her child (and maybe even herself). Tywin punishing Joanna for her infidelity and perhaps killing the babe himself announces to the world that Aerys cuckolded him again. Aerys having the child later executed implies the same.

2) If the sex was rape, then she has to confess to Tywin that Aerys dishonored him, bring shame to House Lannister, and risk the life of her child (and maybe even herself.) Should Tywin bring grievance and rise against Aerys for raping his wife, Tywin puts Joanna squarely in Aerys’ sights and brings dire threat upon the woman he loves. You can’t accuse a king of rape and live to tell about it. Tywin later murdering the child raises too much suspicion, so most likely he would have to remain silent and tolerate Aerys’ bastard offspring to preserve his own name (until that grievous “hunting accident” that would happen later, I’m sure).

Joanna really had him over a barrel here. Even if it WAS consensual, she can still claim rape and there is nothing short of an uprising that Tywin can do about it without bringing ruin to his house.

When Tyrion is born a dwarf with indeterminate features and Joanna dies, Tywin has two options: murder what may be his trueborn son in cold blood and become a kinslayer, or claim the son he’s pretty sure isn’t his own but can’t swear to (“I have no proof that you are not mine”) and quash the rumors of the blight on House Lannister perpetrated by Aerys Targaryen. It’s a bitter pill. Tywin's pride rules all, so he chose the latter.

Just some thoughts....this may be garbage.

I think the story that Tywin accepts Tyrion to save his name is a pretty solid one. It would explain everything a lot better as most AJ explanations.

No one has used the line 'I cannot prove that you are not mine' as evidence before. But it really is the best one I've heard so far. With this line he is suggesting there is a possibility Joanna was pregnant from someone else. That does not comply with the great love story of Tywin and Joanna. Who would say such a thing about his dead wife?

I still think Tyrion to be his trueborn son would be a better story. I actively dislike Tywin and I would hate it if he had been cheated on and was 'in his right' by not completely accepting Tyrion as his son.

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(...)

Tyrion's entire Dance with Dragons arc is about dragons (Aegon, Dany, her three dragons)... so of course, they will feature in his chapters...

(...)

Just for the sake of it, because I feel I'm not remembering them all and thus feel like I shouldn't start to discuss it before having a full list.. What are all the hints for Tyrion being a Targaryen?

(...)

Here is a summary for you (borrowed from Corbon):

1. Tyrion's hair. Its white-blonde, not golden, far closer to Targaryen colour (indeed, most Targs would be described as 'white-blonde' unless theirs is particualrly 'metallic', and quite definitely not the Lannister colour. People argue that so is Tommens, and they are right, but Tommen is just a child and chidlren's hair is often lighter when they are young. The other Lannisters are quite conclusively golden.

- conclusion? Could be something, could be nothing, can't say for sure either way.

2. Tyrion's eyes. There is one other character in the seres who has mismatched eyes... a Targaryen Bastard by the name of Shiera Seastar.

- conclusion? Coincidence? Could be, hard to tell.

3. Joanna and Aerys. Yes, that quote about the wedding incident is clearly not related directly to Tyrion, as he wasn't conceived for many years afterward. But it is part of a consistent set of data which tells us that Aerys loved Joanna and would have married her, but married Rhaella as it was his duty. This ponts toward the possibility, of an affair, willing or not on Joanna's part (we have later evidence Aerys was not above taking a woman by force). There is no data at all to rule this out - it would have happened before Aerys nailed himself to the Red Keep (after Duskendale), while Tywin was Hand of the King. There is also no further datapointing to this - we just have that Aerys had a thing for Joanna, and no hingt that a connection between them would be difficult, let alone impossible. Not that this is not using absence of disproof as evidence for - the evidence for, very weak, but there, is that Aerys had a thing for Joanna. But as a standard response was immediately "thats physically impossible, one is in CL, the other KL, and Tywin would never let it happen", its become standard to refute that little piece of irrational footstomping before it gets off the ground.

Conclusion? No conclusion. Just that its not impossible, and would in fact match to some known data, so not be completely out of the blue if GRRM goes this way.

4. Many many small hints in the text about Tyrion being a king, or casting the shadow of a King or similar - which as a Lannister he has zero connection to Kingship. As a Targ Bastard, he at least his a tenuous one.

Conclusion - too weak to mean anything, but could be used as pointers if GRRM does use this theory.

5. Tyrion's unusual connection with Dragons. He has had Dragon dreams - something the Targs were noted for, and the only other characters to have had Dragon dreams so far are Jon (1/2 Targ if R+L=J) and Shirreen (full Targ great-grandmother). He also tells Jon he used to dream of burning Cersei with Dragonfire. He also asked his uncle for a pet dragon. He also has read just about everything every written on Dragons and is possibly one of the foremost authorities in the world (if unrecognised). He also has an unusual reaction to the dragon skulls under the Red Keep, feeling them as welcoming, as opposed to Arya and others, who feel them creepy. There's an interesting allusion there to dragons and fire and blood, or something similar (shadows?, power?), when he has sex with Shae in amongst them, IIRC, but I can't recall the details.

Counter-argument - well, so would any young boy. It means nothing!

Conclusion - this is a very strong hint, probably the strongest. But not definitive. True, so 'could' any young boy. But Tyrion is the only character who has all these things, he's the only young boy we are told of that does/did have these dreams.

6. Moquorro's vision - Tyrion and many dragons of all types, him amongst them. That could equally be read as him the not-dragon, and as him being one of the dragons.

Conclusions - can't form one from this as it could go either way equally.

7. Tywin's actions and statements. Clearly Tywin doesn't know Tyrion is not his, or Tyrion would be dead for sure (accidentally, at birth). But he may suspect. That would perfectly match his actions. He can't do anything directly against Tyrion, as that would do three things - i) confirm to the world that Joanna cuckolded him (making him a laughing stock, the one thing he hates above all else), ii) make him a kinslayer if his suspicions were wrong, and iii) remove the last hint of Joanna from his life. So instead he acknowledges Tyrion is his son, but refuses to give him his due as his son. The only times he allows Tyrion any power, or acknowledges Tyrion as his son (to Tyrion) is when he needs something from Tyrion. And he discards him as soon as possible afterwards. Its the opposite for Jaime, who is given everything and denied only when he defies his father.

There are lots of counters to this, but in the end it all can goes either way quite consistently (nurture tends to be conveniently ignored as need by the haters).

Conclusion - wait and see. Both ways work. Note that this works whether the theory is true or not.

8. The two characters Tyrion seems to get on best with? Jon and Aemon.

Conclusion - less than nothing in terms of meaning, but... interesting.

9. What do Jon, Tyrion and Dany have in common? Mothers who died birthing them, and, maybe Targaryen fathers?

Conclusion - does not mean he must be a Targ. But... interesting...

10. Oh, I almost forgot, the delightfulling charming note that Tyrion likes his bacon "burned black", and lots of peppers in his food.

Conclusion - nothing, but... if=then, cool hint!

Add the 5th book's title, 'A Dance with Dragons', that could be the clearest clue that Tyrion is a dragon (a Targ) : the whole book shifts (dances?) between 3 characters POVs, Dany (a Targ), Jon (almost certainly a Targ) and Tyrion...

And if you want I can also provide you with some extensive textual evidence foreshadowing Tyrion riding Viserion, and as aWoIaF clearly states the necessity to be a dragonseed to do so...

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