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40 Thousand Skeletons

[TWOIAF Spoilers] Tyrion, Son of the Mad King

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Here is a summary for you (borrowed from Corbon):

1. Tyrion's hair. Its white-blonde, not golden, far closer to Targaryen colour (indeed, most Targs would be described as 'white-blonde' unless theirs is particualrly 'metallic', and quite definitely not the Lannister colour. People argue that so is Tommens, and they are right, but Tommen is just a child and chidlren's hair is often lighter when they are young. The other Lannisters are quite conclusively golden.

- conclusion? Could be something, could be nothing, can't say for sure either way.

2. Tyrion's eyes. There is one other character in the seres who has mismatched eyes... a Targaryen Bastard by the name of Shiera Seastar.

- conclusion? Coincidence? Could be, hard to tell.

3. Joanna and Aerys. Yes, that quote about the wedding incident is clearly not related directly to Tyrion, as he wasn't conceived for many years afterward. But it is part of a consistent set of data which tells us that Aerys loved Joanna and would have married her, but married Rhaella as it was his duty. This ponts toward the possibility, of an affair, willing or not on Joanna's part (we have later evidence Aerys was not above taking a woman by force). There is no data at all to rule this out - it would have happened before Aerys nailed himself to the Red Keep (after Duskendale), while Tywin was Hand of the King. There is also no further datapointing to this - we just have that Aerys had a thing for Joanna, and no hingt that a connection between them would be difficult, let alone impossible. Not that this is not using absence of disproof as evidence for - the evidence for, very weak, but there, is that Aerys had a thing for Joanna. But as a standard response was immediately "thats physically impossible, one is in CL, the other KL, and Tywin would never let it happen", its become standard to refute that little piece of irrational footstomping before it gets off the ground.

Conclusion? No conclusion. Just that its not impossible, and would in fact match to some known data, so not be completely out of the blue if GRRM goes this way.

4. Many many small hints in the text about Tyrion being a king, or casting the shadow of a King or similar - which as a Lannister he has zero connection to Kingship. As a Targ Bastard, he at least his a tenuous one.

Conclusion - too weak to mean anything, but could be used as pointers if GRRM does use this theory.

5. Tyrion's unusual connection with Dragons. He has had Dragon dreams - something the Targs were noted for, and the only other characters to have had Dragon dreams so far are Jon (1/2 Targ if R+L=J) and Shirreen (full Targ great-grandmother). He also tells Jon he used to dream of burning Cersei with Dragonfire. He also asked his uncle for a pet dragon. He also has read just about everything every written on Dragons and is possibly one of the foremost authorities in the world (if unrecognised). He also has an unusual reaction to the dragon skulls under the Red Keep, feeling them as welcoming, as opposed to Arya and others, who feel them creepy. There's an interesting allusion there to dragons and fire and blood, or something similar (shadows?, power?), when he has sex with Shae in amongst them, IIRC, but I can't recall the details.

Counter-argument - well, so would any young boy. It means nothing!

Conclusion - this is a very strong hint, probably the strongest. But not definitive. True, so 'could' any young boy. But Tyrion is the only character who has all these things, he's the only young boy we are told of that does/did have these dreams.

6. Moquorro's vision - Tyrion and many dragons of all types, him amongst them. That could equally be read as him the not-dragon, and as him being one of the dragons.

Conclusions - can't form one from this as it could go either way equally.

7. Tywin's actions and statements. Clearly Tywin doesn't know Tyrion is not his, or Tyrion would be dead for sure (accidentally, at birth). But he may suspect. That would perfectly match his actions. He can't do anything directly against Tyrion, as that would do three things - i) confirm to the world that Joanna cuckolded him (making him a laughing stock, the one thing he hates above all else), ii) make him a kinslayer if his suspicions were wrong, and iii) remove the last hint of Joanna from his life. So instead he acknowledges Tyrion is his son, but refuses to give him his due as his son. The only times he allows Tyrion any power, or acknowledges Tyrion as his son (to Tyrion) is when he needs something from Tyrion. And he discards him as soon as possible afterwards. Its the opposite for Jaime, who is given everything and denied only when he defies his father.

There are lots of counters to this, but in the end it all can goes either way quite consistently (nurture tends to be conveniently ignored as need by the haters).

Conclusion - wait and see. Both ways work. Note that this works whether the theory is true or not.

8. The two characters Tyrion seems to get on best with? Jon and Aemon.

Conclusion - less than nothing in terms of meaning, but... interesting.

9. What do Jon, Tyrion and Dany have in common? Mothers who died birthing them, and, maybe Targaryen fathers?

Conclusion - does not mean he must be a Targ. But... interesting...

10. Oh, I almost forgot, the delightfulling charming note that Tyrion likes his bacon "burned black", and lots of peppers in his food.

Conclusion - nothing, but... if=then, cool hint!

Add the 5th book's title, 'A Dance with Dragons', that could be the clearest clue that Tyrion is a dragon (a Targ) : the whole book shifts (dances?) between 3 characters POVs, Dany (a Targ), Jon (almost certainly a Targ) and Tyrion...

Yes but I still think there is a difference between him be a dragonrider and him being a secret Targ. One is no safe guarantee for the other. I think the dragonriding evidence is way stronger as the secret Targ evidence.

I do think Targ blood is necessary to ride a dragon, except with the horn.

And if you want I can also provide you with some extensive textual evidence foreshadowing Tyrion riding Viserion, and as aWoIaF clearly states the necessity to be a dragonseed to do so...

I like to read the foreshadowing, but as staded above., the horn remains a possibility.

Edit: What if it isn't true, Tyrion rides Viserion because of the horn. But then Dany shows up and he wants her acceptance (he wants to be loved) or he wants a claim. He might have heard the story of his mother and Aerys by Barristan and sees it as the ultimate humiliation for his father to style himself as a Targaryen bastard. He rides a dragon, his father made assumptions and there is location, timing and gossip. Dany is delighted to have a half brother with a weaker claim, who is happy to advice her in exchange for love, a position, revenge.

It would explain why Martin put the gossip there, it would be great revenge for Tyrion and a bang end for the Tyrion-Tywin relationship.

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I think the story that Tywin accepts Tyrion to save his name is a pretty solid one. It would explain everything a lot better as most AJ explanations.

No one has used the line 'I cannot prove that you are not mine' as evidence before. But it really is the best one I've heard so far. With this line he is suggesting there is a possibility Joanna was pregnant from someone else. That does not comply with the great love story of Tywin and Joanna. Who would say such a thing about his dead wife?

I still think Tyrion to be his trueborn son would be a better story. I actively dislike Tywin and I would hate it if he had been cheated on and was 'in his right' by not completely accepting Tyrion as his son.

Tywin's weak point is the Lannister name, and his biggest fear is having that name be mocked instead of feared. A Targaryen child by his wife fathered by the KING, regardless of how it was gotten upon her, would be the apex of humiliation for him should the knowledge get out...but he just can't be sure.

Added irony to my earlier speculation about Aerys killing his bastards would be Aerys putting the responsibility upon Tywin, as his Hand and lead cleanup man, to track them all down and oversee the executions himself. (See:

Tywin's mystery trip to Lys during his Handship mentioned in TWOW "Mercy".

) If word of Tyrion's possible paternity got out, Tywin could find himself in the position of carrying out forced kinslaying or defying his king.

FWIW, I originally hated the idea of Tyrion as a secret Targ. However, looking at all the evidence from the series and now the WB, I believe this is the real deal. GRRM has said that Tyrion is his favorite character, Tyrion is the character most like himself, and in-universe Tyrion is the least likely to be taken seriously/have things work out for him despite being decidedly clever and competent in his actions, so it makes sense that Tyrion will be the character that ends up with the OMG!!! plot arc. GRRM also made the comment about the big mystery that some people figured out as early as the first two books - of course the immediate assumption for that was directed at R+L=J, but given all the clues and references for Tyrion laid out in the early story, *I* think this is the REAL mystery to which he's referring.

*edited to fix spoiler tag.

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Yes but I still think there is a difference between him be a dragonrider and him being a secret Targ. One is no safe guarantee for the other. I think the dragonriding evidence is way stronger as the secret Targ evidence.

I do think Targ blood is necessary to ride a dragon, except with the horn.

I like to read the foreshadowing, but as staded above., the horn remains a possibility.

Edit: What if it isn't true, Tyrion rides Viserion because of the horn. But then Dany shows up and he wants her acceptance (he wants to be loved) or he wants a claim. He might have heard the story of his mother and Aerys by Barristan and sees it as the ultimate humiliation for his father to style himself as a Targaryen bastard. He rides a dragon, his father made assumptions and there is location, timing and gossip. Dany is delighted to have a half brother with a weaker claim, who is happy to advice her in exchange for love, a position, revenge.

It would explain why Martin put the gossip there, it would be great revenge for Tyrion and a bang end for the Tyrion-Tywin relationship.

Here is the textual evidence, borrowed from Mithras Stoneborn (former Paper Waver - I had not realised this in my previous post answering him!):

Posted 06 January 2014 - 11:11 PM

Dany vs. fAegon conflict is building up to be the second Dance of the Dragons (DotD). In the first contest, there was a female and a male Targaryen claimant to the IT. Of course fAegon is actually a false dragon, i.e. he is not Rhaegar’s son as he claims. That makes this contest a Blackfyre Campaign as well.

Returning to the original DotD, Rhaenyra as Dany’s parallel had a lot of dragons but few riders to ride them. Thus, one of the first things she did was to call for dragonriders to tame wild dragons. Rhaenyra had much more dragons than Aegon II, so she wanted to exploit this advantage to the end. Just like Rhaenyra, Dany will strive to make up in dragons what she lacks in armies.

Therefore, Dany will have two dragonriders for Viserion and Rhaegal.

I must say that these dragonriders (and their dragons) may not be necessarily loyal to Dany until the end. Rhaenyra had two dragonriders who betrayed her (Ulf the White and Hugh Hammer). I think Ulf and Hugh have dangerously high parallels with Tyrion and Victarion but let us leave that for another time.

Two POVs are on a crash course with Dany. Victarion is armed with a real dragonhorn and a Red Priest of proven power. He openly wishes to bind these dragons to his will. Tyrion is armed with his wits, his knowledge of Westeros, his political skills and his dragonlore.

Since the beginning of the series, Tyrion showed his morbid fascination with dragons.

“When I was your age, used to dream of having a dragon of my own.”

“You did?” the boy said suspiciously. Perhaps he thought Tyrion was making fun of him.

“Oh, yes. Even a stunted, twisted, ugly little boy can look down over the world when he’s seated on a dragon’s back.”

This brings us to the special saddle he designed or Bran for him to ride his horse.

“Will I truly be able to ride?” Bran asked. He wanted to believe them, but he was afraid. Perhaps it was just another lie. The crow had promised him that he could fly.

“You will,” the dwarf told him. “And I swear to you, boy, on horseback you will be as tall as any of them.”

Bolded sentences share a common notion. Bran rode his horse with this special saddle. So, Tyrion’s dream of dragons may well come true. Tyrion compared Bran’s saddle to his own.

“With the right horse and the right saddle, even a cripple can ride.”

“It came easier to me, Maester. It is not terribly unlike my own saddles.”

tPatQ made clear how Targaryens used special saddles to ride their dragons. Tyrion showed his capability of designing one. Note that the horse Bran rod with the special saddle Tyrion designed was Dancer. That is an interesting name considering Tyrion will be in the middle of the Dance of Dragons 2.0, which makes him a Dancer as well.

Tyrion grinned at him. “That’s good, bastard. Most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it.”

“Most men,” the boy said. “But not you.”

“No,” Tyrion admitted, “not me. I seldom even dream of dragons anymore. There are no dragons.”

Tyrion says that he does not dream of dragons anymore because there are no dragons. By the end of AGoT, that will change because Dany will hatch three wormlings.

She heard a crack, the sound of shattering stone. The platform of wood and brush and grass began to shift and collapse in upon itself. Bits of burning wood slid down at her, and Dany was showered with ash and cinders. And something else came crashing down, bouncing and rolling, to land at her feet; a chunk of curved rock, pale and veined with gold, broken and smoking. The roaring filled the world, yet dimly through the firefall Dany heard women shriek and children cry out in wonder.

Viserion was the first dragon to hatch. Following his hatching, roaring filled the world. Roaring is highly associated with the lion of Lannister (Hear me roar). This is a clear foreshadowing for Tyrion getting Viserion.

There is another foreshadowing for Tyrion getting Viserion, credited to Fire Eater.

The fool was all that he had time to think as the quarrel caromed off Viserion’s neck to vanish in the gloom. A line of fire gleamed in its wake—dragon’s blood, glowing gold and red.

The crossbowman was fumbling for another quarrel as the dragon’s teeth closed around his neck.

Viserion's blood is described using the colors of House Lannister. This occurs when Viserion is fired at with a crossbow, something Tyrion has used and relates to using often throughout ADwD. Viserion eats the crossbowman.

Don’t assume that this foreshadows Viserion killing Tyrion. Eating one’s flesh shows a special connection for some people. For example, Varamyr thought of eating his own flesh in his second life with his pack. Mormont’s Raven ate the face of the Old Bear and some people believes that a part of him still lives in the annoying bird. These two cases have the connection between humans and animals. Thus, Viserion eating the crossbowman should be a similar case to these.

So how will Tyrion get his dragon? I think the answer mainly lies in the following quote:

Robb Stark seemed puzzled. “Is this some trap, Lannister? What’s Bran to you? Why should you want to help him?”

“Your brother Jon asked it of me. And I have a tender spot in my heart for cripples and bastards and broken things.” Tyrion Lannister placed a hand over his heart and grinned.

Tyrion helped the bastard (Jon) and cripple (Bran). Now the only thing remains is a broken thing. I believe Viserion will be wounded in the Battle of Meereen and Tyrion will take care of him. That is how he will bond with his dragon.

“This one understands.” Missandei turned as if to go, then paused a moment and said, “It is said that the Yunkai’i have ringed the city all about with scorpions, to loose iron bolts into the sky should Drogon return.”

Ser Barristan had heard that too. “It is no simple thing to slay a dragon in the sky. In Westeros, many tried to bring down Aegon and his sisters. None succeeded.”

Missandei nodded. It was hard to tell if she was reassured.

Scorpions were cranked upwards to loose iron bolts of the sort that had once felled Meraxes in Dorne.

Dorne is a hot and dry place full of sand. Meereen is much the same. The correct account for the death of Meraxes is that an iron bolt loosed by a scorpion slew the dragon. We don’t know much about this particular event but that must be a lucky shot. I think, Viserion will get a hit by one of those iron bolts. Probably his wing will be damaged and he will not be able to fly for a while. Both Brarristan and Missandei will turn out to be true. Viserion will be shot as she feared but will not die from it as Barristan tried to assure her.

This will be the time for Tyrion. He will feed mutton to the dragon, help him recover and finally bond with him similar to Nettles and Sheepstealer. Tyrion knows tPatQ and how Aegon and his dragon were recovering from their wounds. He also remembers how Bran in comatose seemed to draw strength from his direwolf. I think Viserion will recover better in the presence of Tyrion.

At this point, it can be a good idea to search Viserion and see if he showed similarities with his future rider Tyrion. Strikingly, Viserion seems to act like Tyrion and foreshadow some of Tyrion’s future deeds.

Drogon and Rhaegal were asleep atop some cushions, curled about each other, but Viserion perched on the edge of her empty bath. “Missandei, what language will these Yunkai’i speak, Valyrian?”

“Yes, Your Grace,” the child said. “A different dialect than Astapor’s, yet close enough to understand. The slavers name themselves the Wise Masters.”

“Wise?” Dany sat cross-legged on a cushion, and Viserion spread his white-and-gold wings and flapped to her side. “We shall see how wise they are,” she said as she scratched the dragon’s scaly head behind the horns.

Dany scratched the head of Tyrion’s dragon while she was talking about the Wise Masters.

“What do you plan to offer the dragon queen, little man?”

My hate, Tyrion wanted to say. Instead he spread his hands as far as the fetters would allow. “Whatever she would have of me. Sage counsel, savage wit, a bit of tumbling. My cock, if she desires it. My tongue, if she does not. I will lead her armies or rub her feet, as she desires. And the only reward I ask is I might be allowed to rape and kill my sister.”

Tyrion is likely to be a wise advisor of Dany once they are united. It is also likely that Dany will assign him as her Master of Coin and Tyrion will promise her a significant amount of the Lannister gold in the CR.

In some of those pyramids, the Sons of the Harpy are plotting new murders even now, she thought, and I am powerless to stop them.

Viserion sensed her disquiet. The white dragon lay coiled around a pear tree, his head resting on his tail. When Dany passed his eyes came open, two pools of molten gold. His horns were gold as well, and the scales that ran down his back from head to tail. “You’re lazy,” she told him, scratching under his jaw. His scales were hot to the touch, like armor left cooking too long in the sun. Dragons are fire made flesh. She had read that in one of the books Ser Jorah had given her as a wedding gift. “You should be hunting with your brothers. Have you been fighting Drogon again?” Her dragons had grown wilder of late. Rhaegal had snapped at Irri, and Viserion had set Reznak’s tokar ablaze the last time the Seneschal had called. I have left them too much to themselves, but where am I to find the time for them?

Viserion senses Dany’s disquiet. In fact, I feel like whenever Dany wants fire and blood other dragons are attending Dany and whenever she needs wise counsel, Viserion is in the picture. That would be Tyrion of course. Viserion attacked Reznak thus I think he is the perfumed seneschal. Tyrion will deal with his schemes.

From Tyrion TWoW chapter:

Spoiler
Brown ben muses that the two dragons are wild cards which could attack anything on either side during the battle. They [Tyrion and Ben] assume Dany will return on the third dragon and speculate about rescuing the three hostages – Daario, the eunuch and the horse boy – and delivering them to Mereen, thereby changing sides a second time, but claiming that they only pretended to change sides before so as to learn the Yunkish plans

Viserion’s tail lashed sideways, thumping the trunk of the tree so hard that a pear came tumbling down to land at Dany’s feet.

Tyrosh is famous for its pear brandy and sellswords. Tyrion is planning to rescue the hostages including Daario. I think they will save them to prove their loyalty to Dany.

But as Brown Ben was leaving, Viserion spread his pale white wings and flapped lazily at his head. One of the wings buffeted the sellsword in his face. The white dragon landed awkwardly with one foot on the man’s head and one on his shoulder, shrieked, and flew off again.

This is a clear foreshadowing of Tyrion using Brown Ben and Second Sons as stepping stone to reach Dany. Viserion could not land properly and he had to fly off. That may foreshadow the incident we talked about earlier. While Tyrion is using Brown Ben to reach Dany, Viserion will be shot and because of that he will fall with a crash.

Once, not long ago, he had ridden on her shoulder, his tail coiled round her arm. Once she had fed him morsels of charred meat from her own hand. He had been the first chained up. Daenerys had led him to the pit herself and shut him up inside with several oxen. Once he had gorged himself he grew drowsy. They had chained him whilst he slept.

Tyrion is enslaved by Jorah while whoremongering. Very similar to Viserion’s case. Jorah was having a whore which resembled Dany in that scene.

The cream-and-gold dragon was suckling at her left breast, the green-and-bronze at the right.

When the dragons first hatched, Rhaegal and Viserion were suckling Dany’s teats. That is not a child suckling mother’s nipple because dragons don’t have nipples. They are carnivores, they don’t breastfeed their hatchlings. That suckling was from lust if you ask me.

“She [Dany] gives her body to men to take their souls in thrall.”

Oh, good, thought Tyrion. If she gives her body to me, she is welcome to my soul, small and stunted though it is.

There we have it.

“Quaithe?” Dany sprung from the bed and threw open the door. Pale yellow lantern light flooded the cabin, and Irri and Jhiqui sat up sleepily. “Khaleesi?” murmured Jhiqui, rubbing her eyes. Viserion woke and opened his jaws, and a puff of flame brightened even the darkest comers. There was no sign of a woman in a red lacquer mask.

Tyrion will solve the mystery surrounding Quaithe.

Viserion’s claws scrabbled against the stones, and the huge chains rattled as he tried to make his way to her again. When he could not, he gave a roar, twisted his head back as far as he was able, and spat golden flame at the wall behind him. How soon till his fire burns hot enough to crack stone and melt iron?

Again we have Viserion’s golden flame (Lannister gold) and roar (Hear me roar). Melting iron is also interesting. Blackfyres are associated with black iron several times in the text (like Septon Meribald’s famous talk about the clanking dragons, black iron plate appearing as red from rust, hence fAegon the last Blackfyre pretender). Therefore, Tyrion will be a key figure in defeating the last Blackfyre campaign.

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I only have time for one of your posts, so this one first :)

Here is a summary for you (borrowed from Corbon):

Thanks! :)

1. Tyrion's hair. Its white-blonde, not golden, far closer to Targaryen colour (indeed, most Targs would be described as 'white-blonde' unless theirs is particualrly 'metallic', and quite definitely not the Lannister colour. People argue that so is Tommens, and they are right, but Tommen is just a child and chidlren's hair is often lighter when they are young. The other Lannisters are quite conclusively golden.

- conclusion? Could be something, could be nothing, can't say for sure either way.

The fact remains that Tommen's hair was described the same colour as Tyrions at one point, in the first book, when there originally were supposed to be only three books.

And silver with golden hair is not a strange thing for Targaryens... So if Tyrion's hair was a hint, why not give him a mixture?

Tyrion also has black in his beard.. Where does that come from?

2. Tyrion's eyes. There is one other character in the seres who has mismatched eyes... a Targaryen Bastard by the name of Shiera Seastar.

- conclusion? Coincidence? Could be, hard to tell.

Euron Greyjoy ;) Definitly not a Targaryen

3. Joanna and Aerys. Yes, that quote about the wedding incident is clearly not related directly to Tyrion, as he wasn't conceived for many years afterward. But it is part of a consistent set of data which tells us that Aerys loved Joanna and would have married her, but married Rhaella as it was his duty. This ponts toward the possibility, of an affair, willing or not on Joanna's part (we have later evidence Aerys was not above taking a woman by force). There is no data at all to rule this out - it would have happened before Aerys nailed himself to the Red Keep (after Duskendale), while Tywin was Hand of the King. There is also no further datapointing to this - we just have that Aerys had a thing for Joanna, and no hingt that a connection between them would be difficult, let alone impossible. Not that this is not using absence of disproof as evidence for - the evidence for, very weak, but there, is that Aerys had a thing for Joanna. But as a standard response was immediately "thats physically impossible, one is in CL, the other KL, and Tywin would never let it happen", its become standard to refute that little piece of irrational footstomping before it gets off the ground.

Conclusion? No conclusion. Just that its not impossible, and would in fact match to some known data, so not be completely out of the blue if GRRM goes this way.

No. The quote does not state that Aerys loved Joanna. It stated that he lusted after her, which is quite a difference. Still, it does seem that there was, early on, an affair. And that affair ended in 263 AC, when Joanna left for Casterly Rock, to seldom return to KL (and that seldom is, as far as we know, only once).

In addition, Aerys started sleeping with his wife using force only after his insanity hit a certain level. His character prior to the Defiance, does not suggest any sexual violence. In fact, from Jaime, we know that Aerys would become sexually abusive towards Rhaella after having burned a man alive (that aroused him), a thing which he started doing starting around 280 AC (there is once incidence recorded a few years earlier, in 274 AC, but everything suggests that was a one-time thing at the time, an act out of anger).

An affair between the two is not impossible, I'll never say that. But still.. Even the argumentation people have added to this particular point since the World Book, is not yet convincing (to me, at least).

4. Many many small hints in the text about Tyrion being a king, or casting the shadow of a King or similar - which as a Lannister he has zero connection to Kingship. As a Targ Bastard, he at least his a tenuous one.

Conclusion - too weak to mean anything, but could be used as pointers if GRRM does use this theory.

The same hint is there for Jaime.

5. Tyrion's unusual connection with Dragons. He has had Dragon dreams - something the Targs were noted for, and the only other characters to have had Dragon dreams so far are Jon (1/2 Targ if R+L=J) and Shirreen (full Targ great-grandmother). He also tells Jon he used to dream of burning Cersei with Dragonfire. He also asked his uncle for a pet dragon. He also has read just about everything every written on Dragons and is possibly one of the foremost authorities in the world (if unrecognised). He also has an unusual reaction to the dragon skulls under the Red Keep, feeling them as welcoming, as opposed to Arya and others, who feel them creepy. There's an interesting allusion there to dragons and fire and blood, or something similar (shadows?, power?), when he has sex with Shae in amongst them, IIRC, but I can't recall the details.

Counter-argument - well, so would any young boy. It means nothing!
Conclusion - this is a very strong hint, probably the strongest. But not definitive. True, so 'could' any young boy. But Tyrion is the only character who has all these things, he's the only young boy we are told of that does/did have these dreams.

The Targaryens dreamt their dragon dreams, and there, it would seem, a dragon represented a Targaryen (Daeron the Drunken, Daemon II, etc.)

The "I used to dream of a dragon of my own" (paraphrased) is simply a whish as in "I used to dream of a puppy of my own when I was a little kid". Asking your uncle for a dragon (as a pet, I assume) is also not a dragon dream as Targaryens have them. Wanting a dragon for your own does not make you a Targaryen.

So, in short, I agree with your (Corbon's?) conclusion here.

6. Moquorro's vision - Tyrion and many dragons of all types, him amongst them. That could equally be read as him the not-dragon, and as him being one of the dragons.

Conclusions - can't form one from this as it could go either way equally.

The way I read it, was that Tyrion finds himself amongst dragons... Yet that does not mean he is a dragon himself.

7. Tywin's actions and statements. Clearly Tywin doesn't know Tyrion is not his, or Tyrion would be dead for sure (accidentally, at birth). But he may suspect. That would perfectly match his actions. He can't do anything directly against Tyrion, as that would do three things - i) confirm to the world that Joanna cuckolded him (making him a laughing stock, the one thing he hates above all else), ii) make him a kinslayer if his suspicions were wrong, and iii) remove the last hint of Joanna from his life. So instead he acknowledges Tyrion is his son, but refuses to give him his due as his son. The only times he allows Tyrion any power, or acknowledges Tyrion as his son (to Tyrion) is when he needs something from Tyrion. And he discards him as soon as possible afterwards. Its the opposite for Jaime, who is given everything and denied only when he defies his father.

There are lots of counters to this, but in the end it all can goes either way quite consistently (nurture tends to be conveniently ignored as need by the haters).
Conclusion - wait and see. Both ways work. Note that this works whether the theory is true or not.

This is actually touching on the route I think this part of the story is going... Because there once was an affair, Tywin has had his doubts about Tyrion.. But there is no way for Tywin to discover the truth. Tywin´s suspicions, or, better yet, fears, have formed his attitude towards Tyrion, which was so very important for the man Tyrion would become, and is now.

8. The two characters Tyrion seems to get on best with? Jon and Aemon.

Conclusion - less than nothing in terms of meaning, but... interesting.
9. What do Jon, Tyrion and Dany have in common? Mothers who died birthing them, and, maybe Targaryen fathers?
Conclusion - does not mean he must be a Targ. But... interesting...
10. Oh, I almost forgot, the delightfulling charming note that Tyrion likes his bacon "burned black", and lots of peppers in his food.
Conclusion - nothing, but... if=then, cool hint!

These three are very little in itself.. I would find it a stretch to say that Tyrion got along very well with Aemon.. We barely see any interaction between the two. With Jon, yeah, there was a good relationship there. Jon even calls Tyrion his friend, later on.

But mothers dying in childbirth, that happens more often in the story, and the burned bacon.... if the theory is true, it's a funny little thing. But... doubtful..

Add the 5th book's title, 'A Dance with Dragons', that could be the clearest clue that Tyrion is a dragon (a Targ) : the whole book shifts (dances?) between 3 characters POVs, Dany (a Targ), Jon (almost certainly a Targ) and Tyrion...

Dragons are dancing regardless.. Jon, Dany, Aegon, even Aemon, despite not being in the book itself, is "dancing" during the storyline. And Brynden Rivers, of course, up north. Don't forget, Tyrion is said to be "in the midst of all"... Tyrion has been with Jon, making him in rather close vicinity to Brynden (though he didn't know that at the time, of course), and with Aemon, and currently, Tyrion has actively entered a political game, dancing admidst of Aegon and Dany. Tyrion dances with dragons... that doesn't mean he is a dragon. ;)

And if you want I can also provide you with some extensive textual evidence foreshadowing Tyrion riding Viserion, and as aWoIaF clearly states the necessity to be a dragonseed to do so...

You posted this above.. I will answer soon this week, when I have the time to look closely at it :)

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Rhaenys, most of your points are taken and fair. That said...

The fact remains that Tommen's hair was described the same colour as Tyrions at one point, in the first book, when there originally were supposed to be only three books.

And silver with golden hair is not a strange thing for Targaryens... So if Tyrion's hair was a hint, why not give him a mixture?

Tyrion also has black in his beard.. Where does that come from?

In fact, IIRC, Tyrion does have a whitish streak in his hair in the books.

No. The quote does not state that Aerys loved Joanna. It stated that he lusted after her, which is quite a difference. Still, it does seem that there was, early on, an affair. And that affair ended in 263 AC, when Joanna left for Casterly Rock, to seldom return to KL (and that seldom is, as far as we know, only once).

In addition, Aerys started sleeping with his wife using force only after his insanity hit a certain level. His character prior to the Defiance, does not suggest any sexual violence. In fact, from Jaime, we know that Aerys would become sexually abusive towards Rhaella after having burned a man alive (that aroused him), a thing which he started doing starting around 280 AC (there is once incidence recorded a few years earlier, in 274 AC, but everything suggests that was a one-time thing at the time, an act out of anger).

An affair between the two is not impossible, I'll never say that. But still.. Even the argumentation people have added to this particular point since the World Book, is not yet convincing (to me, at least).

Ok we clearly disagree on this, as the OP states:

(....)

However, with TWOIAF out, it seems basically confirmed that:
1) J+C are Tywin's children.

2) You need Valyrian blood to ride a dragon, possibly even more specific than that (families of dragons bonded to specific Valyrian families possibly, doesn't matter much anymore)

3) Lannisters never married any Targs, so no Targ blood in them (100% EDIT: 99% confirmed by family tree, Plumm blood technically possible as some people here have pointed out, though I think there would be some mention of it by now)

(...)

Based on this info, and the other info about Aerys and Joanna and the visit to KL in 272 and some other tidbits from TWOIAF (...)

As some others members have stressed it before me, I find it telling that GRRM has closed the door to A+J= J+C but reinforced the hints about A+J=T in tWoIaF.

Actually, I have an alternative crackpot theory that Tyrion might be the son of Rhaegar and not Aerys, but this is only based on :

- the 'Aerys and Rhaella line' (confirmation bias, granted) ;

- Joanna possibly being a 'cougar' like her daughter Cersei (or the other way round: Cersei taking after her mother) and attracted to the son after having lust for the younger father ;

- Tywin NOT seeking revenge against Aerys ;

- Aerys (Rhaegar?) spurning Cersei for daughter in law (aware of the genetic risk?) ;

- the similar character traits between Tyrion and Rhaegar regarding their thirst for knowledge (love of books), romanticism or political progressivism - or as stated above, his empathy with Jon or Aemon ;

- the irony of Tyrion and Jon being brothers (as they say when they part in aGoT).

The same hint is there for Jaime.

Where? No, the only two characters who are described casting large shadows (like dragons) are Jon and Tyrion. Jaime is only described as kingly in appearance.

This is actually touching on the route I think this part of the story is going... Because there once was an affair, Tywin has had his doubts about Tyrion.. But there is no way for Tywin to discover the truth. Tywin´s suspicions, or, better yet, fears, have formed his attitude towards Tyrion, which was so very important for the man Tyrion would become, and is now.

In the TV series, in the aSoS scene between Tywin and Tyrion, the wordings of Tywin's change from '(...) since I can not prove you are not my son' to '(...) I raised you as my own son because you are a Lannister', thus possibly giving us a 'despite all you are part of the family - I am not a kinslayer' reason for not killing Tyrion as a babe (Joanna IS a Lannister, remember), and not a 'you are really my son after all' as the novel implies (perhaps not GRRM's desired effect at the time). Also, the timings and the selection of the scenes closely link the revealing of Tywin's sulking against Aerys (Joffrey's sending to bed by Tywin during the Council) to the possibility of Tyrion not being Tywin's son (the scene described above, in the same episode): an intended effect?

But again, most telling for me are the clear clues to Tyrion riding Viserion in the near future and the now confirmed (by tPatQ and tWoIaF) dragonseed nature required in order to achieve the taming of a dragon.

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I'd say that Tommen's pale blond hair has more to do with the fact that (blond) children tend to have pale blond hair when their are young, rather than with their heritage. I've brown hair now, but when I was young, my hair was pale blond, too.


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Just because George fanned the flames of A+J=T in TWOIAF does not mean we should believe it by heart. He didnot prove anything. He just fanned some flames.



We see that George fanned the flames of "there are no lemon trees in Braavos" too.




“Seven hells, this place is damp,” she heard her guard complain. “I’m chilled to the bones. Where are the bloody orange trees? I always heard there were orange trees in the Free Cities. Lemons and limes. Pomegranates. Hot peppers, warm nights, girls with bare bellies. Where are the bare-bellied girls, I ask you?”


“Down in Lys, and Myr, and Old Volantis,” the other guard replied. He was an older man, big-bellied and grizzled. “I went to Lys with Lord Tywin once, when he was Hand to Aerys. Braavos is north of King’s Landing, fool. Can’t you read a bloody map?”




In fact, this one is much more absolute than Aerys/Joanna thing.



Are we supposed to delve into crackpot territories like Dany's past was a lie?


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I should have started my last post with "Welcome to the boards." To elaborate on your question, while I think it is interesting to speculate on how the reveal would happen, I think it is almost impossible to anticipate how GRRM would do the reveal. As I think about it, others that might know about Aerys raping Joanna might be Varys (he seems to know everything that happens at KL) and maybe Gerion Lannister as Tywin's brother (although that seems less likely). While most people who were around during that period were either quite young or are dead--but not everyone. And in a fantasy story, there are always "magical" ways (such as visions).

There's a living Tywin's sister.

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Just because George fanned the flames of A+J=T in TWOIAF does not mean we should believe it by heart. He didnot prove anything. He just fanned some flames.

We see that George fanned the flames of "there are no lemon trees in Braavos" too.

(...)

In fact, this one is much more absolute than Aerys/Joanna thing.

Are we supposed to delve into crackpot territories like Dany's past was a lie?

Actually I do believe that this 'lemon tree flag' points at some hidden truth with regard to Dany's infancy... But no theory has really convinced me so far.

There's a living Tywin's sister.

Indeed there is. But she is the one insisting that Tyrion is Tywin's son, so I can't see her revealing Tyrion's supposed bastardry! On the contrary, even knowing for a fact that Tyrion is not Tywin's son, she would stick to claiming Tyrion's legitimacy as she deems him (rightly IMHO) the only one able to maintain the Lannister power (because of his Tywin-like strength).

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A+J=T is not crackpot, not even close.



Nothing like some of the more absurd theories, it is just as legit as R+L=J (simply not as universally liked).



Hair and eye color is just the tip of the iceberg.



We have it straight from the fathers mouth twice;



"I cannot prove you are not mine."


"You are no son of mine." (last dying words of the great Tywin Lannister) are we really supposed to assume this is a throw away statement? That Tywin's last words mean nothing?



Ill say the same thing as earlier, can anyone provide quote's from Tywin that would suggest he liked Tyrion in any way, considered him a trueborn son? I feel like he is is only cordial with Tyrion once or twice tops, the rest of the time he is berating, and insulting, never loving. No matter how much evidence we offer up, it is turned around to, 'Oh Euron has a red eye so Tyrion cannot be Aerys's son' :rolleyes:..... I mean c'mon..... How about any evidence to the contrary? Let us pick apart an argument that someone else has put together about Tywin being the actual father of Tyrion....Until then A+J=T has waaaaay more solid evidence than the alternative.


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Indeed there is. But she is the one insisting that Tyrion is Tywin's son, so I can't see her revealing Tyrion's supposed bastardry! On the contrary, even knowing for a fact that Tyrion is not Tywin's son, she would stick to claiming Tyrion's legitimacy as she deems him (rightly IMHO) the only one able to maintain the Lannister power (because of his Tywin-like strength).

And in the world book it is clearly stated he gets along with them but on a dutiful level, not on a base of fondness. He only opened up to his wife, but had no close friends. He will not have told anyone, it would be out of character.

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