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40 Thousand Skeletons

[TWOIAF Spoilers] Tyrion, Son of the Mad King

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For a lot of people starting on the series, Jon is the son of Ashara and Ned. Because GRRM intentionally mentions it; makes it a plausible possibility,until further analyze and the dropping of contradictory clues make the reader question that version of events.... Does GRRM want us to think Tyrion is the son of Aerys? possibly. I think at the very least, he wants us to entertain the possibility and I don't doubt that he's finding amusement in it.

Does the fact that he's dropping clues intentionally mean that the most logical conclusion we should draw from it, must be that Tyrion is the son of Aerys? Or is GRRM directing our attention away from something else and toward a red-herring? What is his true intention?

  • It could be, that GRRM's intention was no more no less than to tell us about Aerys and Tywin, their relationship and rivalry; thus giving us a better idea of what happened prior to Robert's Rebellion.

It could be that GRRM wants us to think Tyrion is a Targaryen bastard, so that we will not question the past of other characters we've met like Aegon, Varys, Illyrio etc.

It could be that some of these clues were meant to let us know Aerys as a frivolous man, turning Rhaella's ladies in waiting into 'whores.' And if that was the case, what's to say he stopped there and did not turn other ladies into his personal whores? -- more on that later.

It could be all of the above, at the same time.

The real red herrings are

  • Three heads of the dragon = three dragon riders.

Targaryen blood is necessary to ride dragons.

A+J=T is only a part of this big game.

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The real red herrings are

  • Three heads of the dragon = three dragon riders.

Targaryen blood is necessary to ride dragons.

A+J=T is only a part of this big game.

yes, that two... well sort of ;) I agree about the three heads, not however about the Targaryen blood... I think the greatest red-herring/misconception is that the potential dragon riders will save westeros in a joint effort against Others. I doubt there'll be anything like a joint effort; and imo, before any of the dragon riders become 'heroes' they will tear westeros further apart, and use the dragons against humans armies, even civilians.

I'm not sure the 'three heads' is any part of a prophecy and not just a reference to the conqueror, and the Targaryen sigil -- mistakenly assimilated to the prophecy by people who have studied it. There is one PtwP, not three. If it's part of a prophecy, then yes, it's possible the three heads refers to three 'facets' of one dragon.

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George is most secretive about the nature of magic and prophecies. Do we expect him to reveal the truth about them straightforwardly or should we expect several sharp turns before we see the truth?


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Valyrian blood isn't equal to dragonlord blood. The dragons lords were Valyrians, but not all Valyrians were dragonlords.

Lys has a high concentration of the blood of Old Valyria.. but that doesn't necessarily mean that they all descend from dragonriders.. and those who do, have at least 500 years between the last dragonrider, and themselves..

Actually, it does mean that they have dragonlord blood, and lots of it. I spent a whole bunch of posts explaining why dragonlord blood would increase in the Valyrian population over time.

Also, Lys's particular history as a sex tourism mecca catering to dragonlords would naturally have led to a lot of people with dragonlord blood being born there. I believe that's why the blood of Valyria runs so strong in Lys, compared to other Free Cities.

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Actually, it does mean that they have dragonlord blood, and lots of it. I spent a whole bunch of posts explaining why dragonlord blood would increase in the Valyrian population over time.

Also, Lys's particular history as a sex tourism mecca catering to dragonlords would naturally have led to a lot of people with dragonlord blood being born there. I believe that's why the blood of Valyria runs so strong in Lys, compared to other Free Cities.

Actually, it doesn't.

The tradition amongst the Targaryens had always been to marry kin to kin. Wedding brother to sister was thought to be ideal. Failing that, a girl might wed an uncle, a cousin, or a nephew; a boy, a cousin, aunt, or niece. This practise went back to Old Valyria, where it was commmon amongst many of the ancient families, particularly those who bred and rode dragons. "The blood of the dragon must remain pure", the wisdom went.

As the World Book shows, not all families in Old Valyria rode dragons. So Valyrian blood does not equal dragonlord blood.. Most dragonlord families died during the Doom, and those few who survived were killed alongside their dragons. House Targaryen was the only dragonlord family to survive.

Old Valyria was rather large, and only 40 families rode dragons. The might be some very, very, very, very, very, very distant descendants left of these dragonlord families, but the majority of people of Valyrian descent who survived would have descendent from the non-dragonlord families.

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We know that one of Vayrian cities near Freehold was Tyria.

Does it hint that Tyrion was given Vayrian name?

Is it known who've given him this name? If it was Joanna, it may be

made on purpose to indicate his Targaryen parentage.

Also from TWOIAF we know that Aerys visited Anniversary Tourney of 272 AC

and "In 273 AC Lady Joanna was taken to childbed once again at Casterly Rock,

where she died delivering Lord Tywin’s second son."

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We know that one of Vayrian cities near Freehold was Tyria.

Does it hint that Tyrion was given Vayrian name?

Is it known who've given him this name? If it was Joanna, it may be

made on purpose to indicate his Targaryen parentage.

Also from TWOIAF we know that Aerys visited Anniversary Tourney of 272 AC

and "In 273 AC Lady Joanna was taken to childbed once again at Casterly Rock,

where she died delivering Lord Tywin’s second son."

There were a few Lannister Kings named Tyrion, so Tyrion is simply a Lannister name.

According to SSM, it was Tywin who gave Tyrion his name.

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There were a few Lannister Kings named Tyrion, so Tyrion is simply a Lannister name.

According to SSM, it was Tywin who gave Tyrion his name.

But Tyrion II was a Lannister king called Tyrion the Tormentor who enjoyed making women bleed. I don't think it is a coincidence that Tywin would give Tyrion this name given how Joanna died. I doubt it was just another Lannister name--it was this specific name for this specific reason (I strongly suspect).

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But Tyrion II was a Lannister king called Tyrion the Tormentor who enjoyed making women bleed. I don't think it is a coincidence that Tywin would give Tyrion this name given how Joanna died. I doubt it was just another Lannister name--it was this specific name for this specific reason (I strongly suspect).

Oh, I agree, definitly. Tywin clearly had his reasons for chosing that Lannister name..

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Actually, it doesn't.

The tradition amongst the Targaryens had always been to marry kin to kin. Wedding brother to sister was thought to be ideal. Failing that, a girl might wed an uncle, a cousin, or a nephew; a boy, a cousin, aunt, or niece. This practise went back to Old Valyria, where it was commmon amongst many of the ancient families, particularly those who bred and rode dragons. "The blood of the dragon must remain pure", the wisdom went.

As the World Book shows, not all families in Old Valyria rode dragons. So Valyrian blood does not equal dragonlord blood.. Most dragonlord families died during the Doom, and those few who survived were killed alongside their dragons. House Targaryen was the only dragonlord family to survive.

Old Valyria was rather large, and only 40 families rode dragons. The might be some very, very, very, very, very, very distant descendants left of these dragonlord families, but the majority of people of Valyrian descent who survived would have descendent from the non-dragonlord families.

And I explained, over and over again earlier in the thread, that the normal process by which elites father bastards on commoners would have led, over many generations, to the vast spread of dragonlord blood within the Valyrian population. The fact that their heirs were produced by incest is irrelevant. Elites always outbreed commoners, and so their blood would only increase over time.

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But Tyrion II was a Lannister king called Tyrion the Tormentor who enjoyed making women bleed. I don't think it is a coincidence that Tywin would give Tyrion this name given how Joanna died. I doubt it was just another Lannister name--it was this specific name for this specific reason (I strongly suspect).

Ooooh, nice catch! I can totally get behind this theory.

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Ooooh, nice catch! I can totally get behind this theory.

Well, at least we agree on something (as we totally disagree on the consequence of dragonlord bastards in Essos).

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But Tyrion II was a Lannister king called Tyrion the Tormentor who enjoyed making women bleed. I don't think it is a coincidence that Tywin would give Tyrion this name given how Joanna died. I doubt it was just another Lannister name--it was this specific name for this specific reason (I strongly suspect).

Unfortunately, we don't know much about Tyrion I (he's never mentioned) and Tyrion III, only mentioned once I think.

Did you guys also notice that Tyrion II had prowess with a battle axe?

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“You are your mother's trueborn son of Lannister."

"Am I?" the dwarf replied, sardonic. "Do tell my lord father. My mother died birthing me, and he's never been sure."

"I don't even know who my mother was," Jon said.

"Some woman, no doubt. Most of them are." He favored Jon with a rueful grin. "Remember this, boy. All dwarfs may be bastards, yet not all bastards need be dwarfs."

And with that he turned and sauntered back into the feast, whistling a tune.

When he opened the door, the light from within threw his shadow clear across the yard, and for just a moment Tyrion Lannister stood tall as a king.”

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When George apparently destroyed A+J=J+C theory, what should we say about those clues that had been used to imply J+C should be Targaryens? How are they any different than the clues which are interpreted to imply Tyrion should be a Targaryen too?


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It should be noted, I think, that being the Mad King's bastard would not necessarily be a good thing for Tyrion. It might allow him to ride a dragon and would make him less of a kinslayer if Tywin were only his first cousin once removed, but it would also destroy his claim to be Lord of Casterly Rock, which is something he really wants. Losing his claim to the Rock would also take away his ability to ever pay the debts he owes to BBP and the Second Sons. That could make things complicated for him.


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It should be noted, I think, that being the Mad King's bastard would not necessarily be a good thing for Tyrion. It might allow him to ride a dragon and would make him less of a kinslayer if Tywin were only his first cousin once removed, but it would also destroy his claim to be Lord of Casterly Rock, which is something he really wants. Losing his claim to the Rock would also take away his ability to ever pay the debts he owes to BBP and the Second Sons. That could make things complicated for him.

If he rides a dragon I don't think his legitimate claims really matter. Robert claimed the IT and he didn't even have a dragon.

When George apparently destroyed A+J=J+C theory, what should we say about those clues that had been used to imply J+C should be Targaryens? How are they any different than the clues which are interpreted to imply Tyrion should be a Targaryen too?

The difference for me is, I have never thought Jaime would ride a dragon because there are no hints for that, but I have always thought Tyrion will. Again, if Tyrion doesn't end up on a dragon, I will go back to thinking he is most likely Tywin's son.

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[*]Tyrion 'dreamed' of dragons. In context, Tyrion sounds like 'oh you know when I was young, I dreamed of being an astronaut'. His dreams have nothing in common with the prophetic dragon dreams known to Targaryens.

This. This is very important. He did not have the prophetic dragon dreams Targaryens/Blackfyre's have at times. He dreamt about owning his own dragon, the same way young children in real life will dream of owning a puppy, for example.

That Tyrions knows a lot about dragons does not mean he'll ride one. (note, it doesn't mean he won't ride one either). It simply means what it is.. he has the knowledge, and it would useful if he could put it to use. And that could simply mean teaching Daenerys about dragons.. making himself useful to his queen.

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The difference for me is, I have never thought Jaime would ride a dragon because there are no hints for that, but I have always thought Tyrion will. Again, if Tyrion doesn't end up on a dragon, I will go back to thinking he is most likely Tywin's son.

So you are fully devoted to the idea that Targaryen blood is necessary to ride a dragon. And if someone rides a dragon, whether there were any clues or not, he/she must be a Targ descendant.

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