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40 Thousand Skeletons

[TWOIAF Spoilers] Tyrion, Son of the Mad King

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Alternative explanation for the clues: they are not clues. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Before TWOIAF, Daemon Lannister - Elaena Targaryen marriage theory made perfect sense. There were many clues as strong as those for A+J=T.

Later this week, when the one-month moratorium on WOIAF spoilers expires for the main board I intend to post A+J=T v.2 on the main board (v.1 was locked last April). I have put together a lengthy list of clues taken from all the various threads discussing this issue. After reading the entire list, you are free to maintain that they either are not clues at all or red herrings for some other mystery. But I think most people reviewing the list objectively would consider that the list--as a whole--appears to be in the form of clues (even if a few on the list can be discounted). It will be more fruitful to continue this discussion then, when I am free to lay out all the clues on the main board (which I have not taken the time to do on this sub-forum, as 11/27 is coming soon and this sub-forum gets less traffic than the main board).

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Apart from possible magical requirements of pure blood to work sorcery other than dragonriding, they should have done it mainly to hold the power within the family. At least that is why real world incest was practiced by Ptolemaics. Dragonriding is one thing. Breeding dragons is something different. Given that TWOIAF made it very probable that Valyrian dragons were unnatural constructs, perhaps the sorceries required to hatch and breed dragons were the real necessity behind incest. We know that magical affinity is related to blood.

If you believe the bolded then why are you against the theory that Valyrians practiced incest to retain the dragonlord gene?

It doesn't make sense for incest to be used to breed dragons, since the first dragons created would mate each other and human interference would no longer be needed.

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I doubt the horn works that way. GRRM included this event for some reason. While it does not guarantee that Aerys and Joanna had sex at that time, or even if they did, that Tyrion is the result of the encounter. But it put them together at what could have been the right time--a piece of the puzzle that was missing before. So this information makes it more likely that Aerys is the bio-dad.

As for protecting Joanna from rape--while in KL, if Aerys sends his guards to bring Joanna to his bed chambers, Tywin would not be in a position to stop it.

Well doesn't the book also say Tywin wouldn't of married her if the rumors about her losing her virginity to Aerys were true? That's why I was surprised about the theory. I thought it was easier to believe before- I feel like one of the books hinted, but can't remember which right now.

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If you believe the bolded then why are you against the theory that Valyrians practiced incest to retain the dragonlord gene?

It doesn't make sense for incest to be used to breed dragons, since the first dragons created would mate each other and human interference would no longer be needed.

I am not sure of that. Dragons (at least Valyrian dragons) are just organic mass destruction machines created by magic IMO. They used natural firewyrms and wyverns as raw products. I am not sure whether Valyrian dragons can reproduce by themselves.

What I suggested is that all this sorcery required to prodcue and maintain dragons might be related to pure blood but dragonriding might not be related to it. Given that the raw products in creating the dragons were natural, perhaps there is always this backdoor of skinchanging into a dragon.

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I am not sure of that. Dragons (at least Valyrian dragons) are just organic mass destruction machines created by magic IMO. They used natural firewyrms and wyverns as raw products. I am not sure whether Valyrian dragons can reproduce by themselves.

What I suggested is that all this sorcery required to prodcue and maintain dragons might be related to pure blood but dragonriding might not be related to it. Given that the raw products in creating the dragons were natural, perhaps there is always this backdoor of skinchanging into a dragon.

well the Targaryen dragons are from Valyria and they did end up reproducing, so there doesnt seem for there to be a need continuously producing dragons from wyverns and firewyrms.

Im not sure how that works. Are suggesting that someone with no dragonblood can ride a dragon but can't mainrain it? I don't know what you mean by "maintain"

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well the Targaryen dragons are from Valyria and they did end up reproducing, so there doesnt seem for there to be a need continuously producing dragons from wyverns and firewyrms.

Im not sure how that works. Are suggesting that someone with no dragonblood can ride a dragon but can't mainrain it? I don't know what you mean by "maintain"

I didnot suggest that each dragon was produced by interbreeding wyverns and firewyrms. After creating the first dragon like that, perhaps further sorcery is needed to reproduce the new offspring from that dragon.

After Rhaenyra had stillbirth and recovered from it (the woman body preparing itself for reproduction again), her dragon produced another clutch of eggs. Was it coincidence or some sorcery with Targaryen blood was going on?

Most of the Bulldogs are delivered by vets using Caesarean section because they are unnatural breed and without careful maintenance, their breed would die out pretty soon due to extreme mortality rate in births.

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Well doesn't the book also say Tywin wouldn't of married her if the rumors about her losing her virginity to Aerys were true? That's why I was surprised about the theory. I thought it was easier to believe before- I feel like one of the books hinted, but can't remember which right now.

Keep in mind the audience for this book--Tywin and his family. But even if Joanna did not lose her virginity to Aerys (I tend to think actually that she did), it does not mean Aerys did not have Joanna brought to his chambers years later in 272 when she came to KL for the tourney.

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Well, the best idea would be that she may have been not sure whether it was Aerys' child or Tywin's. She would not want to kill Tywin's unborn child, or would she? Especially not if they had tried to have more children after the twins.

But that question only works in a rape scenario. If it was not a rape, then the possibility that Joanna wanted to give birth to Aerys' child would be still valid.

I'm not sure with what sort of rape scenario we are going. I imagine Aerys either seducing or somehow coercing/forcing Joanna to share his bed. I think whatever happened had little/nothing to do with what post-Duskendale Aerys did to Rhaella.

I also don't think we can (or should) interpret Tywin's attempted resignation as a sign that Tywin felt (or knew) Aerys had hurt or brutally raped his wife. It may rather be some sort of admission for defeat. Tywin conceding that Aerys did get yet another successful shot at Joanna, and defeating him again at a field where Tywin may actually have not excelled all that much (with women in general and his wife in particular).

If we go with the unlikely 'Joanna never had an affair with Aerys' scenario and add the 'Aerys brutally had sex with Joanna against her will' possibility then Tywin, not Jaime, should have been the Kingslayer back in 272 AC, for the sake of being true to the character. Nobody really doubts that Tywin was deeply in love with his wife, and I cannot see him standing by while anyone hurts her.

But if he was aware that Joanna was attracted to Aerys and had had an affair with him in the past, he would not have done anything at all but try to resign. The idea that he would only resign because Aerys made a bad jape about Joanna's breasts makes little sense at all. He suffered much more verbal humiliations over the years and made no attempt whatsoever to resign.

I disagree.

Even if Joanna knew there was a chance that it was Tywin's child, she would still know that there was a chance it was Aerys' child.. How was she going to explain to Tywin that she gave birth to a silverhaired, purple-eyed child, whilst neither have these traits, nor their ancestors?

And that works in both the matter of "it had been rape", and the matter of "it had been consentual". If it had been rape, I'd say that Joanna would definitly have taken moon tea, not when discovering she was pregnant, but as soon as she possibly could after the incident.

Had it been with her consent, then the matter of moon tea would arise only after she had discovered she was pregnant (or as soon as she had access to it, depending on how cautious she was).

Pre-Defiance Aerys doesn't seem to have been the kind of guy to rape women, I agree. But he humiliated Joanna that night at KL, so why would she want to have sex with him? That Tywin tried to resign the next day, to me, tells me that he refused to see himself, or any of his family, humiliated.

Tywin himself suffered humiliation over the years.. That's true. But the thing that changed in 272AC, is that it was no longer him, but the wife he loved deeply, who was being humiliated, and who could easily have become the target of japes from that moment on.

You say that you can't see Tywin standing by while anyone hurts Joanna.. By humiliating her, and making her the new target of jokes, the thing that Tywin has endured for years by then, would be hurting her.. And Tywin resigning gives him reason to take Joanna back to CR, far away from any more hurting comments. The King started making jokes about Tywin, and court soon followed. The King had now made a joke about Joanna, and naturally, it would only be a matter of time before court would follow.

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And that works in both the matter of "it had been rape", and the matter of "it had been consentual". If it had been rape, I'd say that Joanna would definitly have taken moon tea, not when discovering she was pregnant, but as soon as she possibly could after the incident.

Had it been with her consent, then the matter of moon tea would arise only after she had discovered she was pregnant (or as soon as she had access to it, depending on how cautious she was).

I think it has been addressed in the series that Moon Tea does not always work.

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I disagree.

Even if Joanna knew there was a chance that it was Tywin's child, she would still know that there was a chance it was Aerys' child.. How was she going to explain to Tywin that she gave birth to a silverhaired, purple-eyed child, whilst neither have these traits, nor their ancestors?

And that works in both the matter of "it had been rape", and the matter of "it had been consentual". If it had been rape, I'd say that Joanna would definitly have taken moon tea, not when discovering she was pregnant, but as soon as she possibly could after the incident.

Had it been with her consent, then the matter of moon tea would arise only after she had discovered she was pregnant (or as soon as she had access to it, depending on how cautious she was).

Pre-Defiance Aerys doesn't seem to have been the kind of guy to rape women, I agree. But he humiliated Joanna that night at KL, so why would she want to have sex with him? That Tywin tried to resign the next day, to me, tells me that he refused to see himself, or any of his family, humiliated.

Tywin himself suffered humiliation over the years.. That's true. But the thing that changed in 272AC, is that it was no longer him, but the wife he loved deeply, who was being humiliated, and who could easily have become the target of japes from that moment on.

You say that you can't see Tywin standing by while anyone hurts Joanna.. By humiliating her, and making her the new target of jokes, the thing that Tywin has endured for years by then, would be hurting her.. And Tywin resigning gives him reason to take Joanna back to CR, far away from any more hurting comments. The King started making jokes about Tywin, and court soon followed. The King had now made a joke about Joanna, and naturally, it would only be a matter of time before court would follow.

A valid explanation, except that Joanna was already staying at CR and rarely visited KL, so I don't think the desire to remove her from KL is a reason for Tywin to resign.

Well doesn't the book also say Tywin wouldn't of married her if the rumors about her losing her virginity to Aerys were true? That's why I was surprised about the theory. I thought it was easier to believe before- I feel like one of the books hinted, but can't remember which right now.

I'm 99% sure TWOIAF was implying that Joanna did lose her virginity to Aerys, since we had never heard of that rumor before, and it was specifically discounted by Grand Maester Pycelle, who we know is basically a servant of Tywin.

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A valid explanation, except that Joanna was already staying at CR and rarely visited KL, so I don't think the desire to remove her from KL is a reason for Tywin to resign.

Without Tywin at KL, Aerys would have had a much more difficult time to summon Joanna to KL..

But the presence or removal from KL shouldn't have been the true issue... Joanna had been send away by Rhaella, long before, and Rhaella was still the queen in 272 AC ;)

It was about the fact that Aerys' hurting comments and japing were no longer directed at Tywin alone.. They were directed at Joanna now, too.. Which would definitly give Tywin enough reason to try and resign..

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Without Tywin at KL, Aerys would have had a much more difficult time to summon Joanna to KL..

But the presence or removal from KL shouldn't have been the true issue... Joanna had been send away by Rhaella, long before, and Rhaella was still the queen in 272 AC ;)

It was about the fact that Aerys' hurting comments and japing were no longer directed at Tywin alone.. They were directed at Joanna now, too.. Which would definitly give Tywin enough reason to try and resign..

Joanna was going back to CR after the tourney no matter what--the question is whether such an insult could be considered the "last straw" because Aerys was now including Joanna in the insults. Joanna was unlikely to be back to KL any time soon thereafter, so it was not like she would have to ensure insults continuously or regularly thereafter. While we cannot know for sure how Tywin would react to any particular provocation, one might easily consider that GRRM is intending for the "subtext" to suggest Tywin was responding to something more while the "cover story" is that the attempted resignation was over the insult. We cannot know for sure either way, but it certainly can count as a "clue" that perhaps something more occurred between Aerys and Joanna.

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Do you have any proof of Nettles having Targ blood other than some maester deducing it a century later that since she rode a dragon, she must be a dragonseed?

Which is an important point as far as the A+J may be T theory goes.

In the case of Nettles, there are two possibilities: either she is a dragonseed (in the sense of having the right Valyrian or Targaryen gene to ride Targ dragons) or she is not, but she is officially accepted to be one anyway, with the same explanation accepted (she is from Dragonstone, lots of Velaryon/Targaryen bastards) as for the other dragonseeds. Even maesters as Yandel and Gyldayn accept this without mentioning any doubt, maybe because they really are convinced she was a dragonseed or because they know better than to not tow the party line (allthough the latter is unlikely considering the book was written in Baratheon times).

Now, say that Tyrion indeed will ride Viserion; if he does, he will either be a dragonseed or be declared one, just like Nettles. In either case, people will look for the Targaryen connection. And since simpler explanations are more likely to be accepted, if there are any rumours at all about Aerys and Joanna this will certainly be a more ready-made explanation than a nebulous tie to Plumm blood that has never even been hinted at, not even in the World Book (surely the place to leave such a hint, if GRRM would be planning to use it as the supposed or real origin of Tyrion's dragonblood).

From the POV of a Targaryen propagandist, it is far better if there is a clear and direct connection to Targaryen blood so the Targaryen's remain special. If a blood injection from a Plumm (if that even exists, which it likely doesn't) from generations back would be enough, that would dilute much of the specialness of Targ blood. Everyone might have a tiny, tiny drop of Targ blood, but not everyone is a bastard from a Targaryen king.

As an aside, I think the first explanation is far more likely, unless Nettles has access to other, powerful magical means to bond dragons (magic of the Children, maybe). Like some here, I find it hard to swallow that feeding a few sheep is all it takes; the fact that Nettles had access to significant numbers of sheep that she could just offer to Sheepstealer also point to her having somone to "sponsor" her activities. I doubt that your ordinary Dragonstone shepherd could afford to just throw away precious lifestock like that.

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I think if it were possible for anyone to ride a dragon George would have likely provided at least one semi-definitive example in TWOIAF. Because that is not the case, I'm sticking with the idea that the whole point of the incest is to be able to ride dragons, otherwise why bother with putting incest in the story? What is the point of the incest otherwise? If people look at the same info and come to a different conclusion, than I guess we will have to wait until at least TWOW to see who is right.

The show may beat George to the answer. i expect this to come up in early S6; it's unlikely but not entirely impossible there may already be something (contact with a dragon, or a comment from Barristan?) in late S5.

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Well doesn't the book also say Tywin wouldn't of married her if the rumors about her losing her virginity to Aerys were true? That's why I was surprised about the theory. I thought it was easier to believe before- I feel like one of the books hinted, but can't remember which right now.

Pycelle was the one who maintains that the rumours of course weren't true, but Pycelle would also maintain that rumours about Cersei and Jaime are baseless and vile inventions of the sinister "evil uncle" Stannis. Yandel is obviously not going against Pycelle's stated opinion in a book that must be sponsored by the Lannisters (and will be presented to, among others, Joffrey and Tywin). It's already a miracle that Yandel mentioned the rumours at all.

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I'm 99% sure TWOIAF was implying that Joanna did lose her virginity to Aerys, since we had never heard of that rumor before, and it was specifically discounted by Grand Maester Pycelle, who we know is basically a servant of Tywin.

OK I've been skimming and didn't read closely enough to catch that the book changed Maesters, let alone was written for the Lannisters. Does that mean all the info about their enemies and the nightwatch BS? I do recall the book saying giants don't exist anymore, but haven't read about the Starks yet.

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Joanna was going back to CR after the tourney no matter what--the question is whether such an insult could be considered the "last straw" because Aerys was now including Joanna in the insults. Joanna was unlikely to be back to KL any time soon thereafter, so it was not like she would have to ensure insults continuously or regularly thereafter. While we cannot know for sure how Tywin would react to any particular provocation, one might easily consider that GRRM is intending for the "subtext" to suggest Tywin was responding to something more while the "cover story" is that the attempted resignation was over the insult. We cannot know for sure either way, but it certainly can count as a "clue" that perhaps something more occurred between Aerys and Joanna.

GRRM might be intending it that way but he also might intend it as a decent background story to explain why Tywin is who he is.

Secondly the argument that moon tea can fail is a very weak argument. Moon tea is like birth control, but their are still options once you definetely get pregnant. I messed those up before and forgot it was more like birth control as abortion. So there is no reasom why she wouldn't have taken it. You only have the weak explanation it didn't work and she couldn't/wouldn't abort it. (which is possible, Cersei did it). That's two ifs, that's a lot ...

Thirdly, the whole idea that Aerys could summon anyone he wanted, including Johanna and rape them seems not very likely to me. Tywin was very powerful and even a king can't just rape his lords wifes. We saw that with Roberts rebellion ... If you stretch your power too much (with your lords) you are playing a dangerous game.

If he summoned Joanna, Tywin would simply have gone with her. He had his own guard, his own army...

Last but not least, his actions by Tywin can be explained out of seksual frustration for Joanna. If he could rape her whenever he pleased why would he keep up to be frustrated?

I'm still for that horn ...

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I didnot suggest that each dragon was produced by interbreeding wyverns and firewyrms. After creating the first dragon like that, perhaps further sorcery is needed to reproduce the new offspring from that dragon.

After Rhaenyra had stillbirth and recovered from it (the woman body preparing itself for reproduction again), her dragon produced another clutch of eggs. Was it coincidence or some sorcery with Targaryen blood was going on?

Most of the Bulldogs are delivered by vets using Caesarean section because they are unnatural breed and without careful maintenance, their breed would die out pretty soon due to extreme mortality rate in births.

There is no evidence that Targaryen incest caused Rhaenyra's dragon to produce a clutch of eggs. And even if that was the case I don't see how it affects the argument that Targaryen incest was done to keep the bloodline pure in order for them to have a higher chance of bonding with a dragon. It's the most likely explanation.

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GRRM might be intending it that way but he also might intend it as a decent background story to explain why Tywin is who he is.

Secondly the argument that moon tea can fail is a very weak argument. Moon tea is like birth control, but their are still options once you definetely get pregnant. I messed those up before and forgot it was more like birth control as abortion. So there is no reasom why she wouldn't have taken it. You only have the weak explanation it didn't work and she couldn't/wouldn't abort it. (which is possible, Cersei did it). That's two ifs, that's a lot ...

Thirdly, the whole idea that Aerys could summon anyone he wanted, including Johanna and rape them seems not very likely to me. Tywin was very powerful and even a king can't just rape his lords wifes. We saw that with Roberts rebellion ... If you stretch your power too much (with your lords) you are playing a dangerous game.

If he summoned Joanna, Tywin would simply have gone with her. He had his own guard, his own army...

Last but not least, his actions by Tywin can be explained out of seksual frustration for Joanna. If he could rape her whenever he pleased why would he keep up to be frustrated?

I'm still for that horn ...

We don't really know enough about the percentage effectiveness of moon tea or the dangers of a Westeros "abortion" let alone what personal religious values Joanna might have regarding getting rid of the fetus. Given that we don't know, it is mere speculation that she would have found a way to get rid of the child. We know almost nothing about her personality other than that she was able to rule Tywin.

As far as Tywin being able to go with Joanna if summoned by the King's guards--you are 100% incorrect. If the guards tell you you are not invited to visit the King, only Joanna, you don't go. That is how it works in KL. For the most part, Aerys had no ready access to Joanna because she was at CR and almost never went to KL. We know that one of the only times she went to KL after her dismissal from service was in 272.

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GRRM might be intending it that way but he also might intend it as a decent background story to explain why Tywin is who he is.

Secondly the argument that moon tea can fail is a very weak argument. Moon tea is like birth control, but their are still options once you definetely get pregnant. I messed those up before and forgot it was more like birth control as abortion. So there is no reasom why she wouldn't have taken it. You only have the weak explanation it didn't work and she couldn't/wouldn't abort it. (which is possible, Cersei did it). That's two ifs, that's a lot ...

Thirdly, the whole idea that Aerys could summon anyone he wanted, including Johanna and rape them seems not very likely to me. Tywin was very powerful and even a king can't just rape his lords wifes. We saw that with Roberts rebellion ... If you stretch your power too much (with your lords) you are playing a dangerous game.

If he summoned Joanna, Tywin would simply have gone with her. He had his own guard, his own army...

Last but not least, his actions by Tywin can be explained out of seksual frustration for Joanna. If he could rape her whenever he pleased why would he keep up to be frustrated?

I'm still for that horn ...

Tywin would have simply gone with her? No. Not if the white knights come and take her. He did not have an army within the walls of the Red Keep. And Aerys couldn't rape her whenever he pleased because she was in CR, and also it would be ridiculous anyways, because Tywin would try to resign or something...

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