[TWOIAF] Six Dragons and the North

[Moondancer]

Regarding dragons, I've made this little graph to put things in perspective.

Neat.

(Btw, I think that Laenor was indeed Seasmoke's first rider. I get that from the way the dragon is described - Laenor's pride. One wouldn't claim such connection if it were for another rider. Balerion is the conqueror's dragon, regardless of the subsequent riders.)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

It seems that Vaegon was the only son of Jaehaerys and Alysanne who lived until adulthood but did not have a dragon... I suspect that especially the sons would have gotten dragons/eggs, as the dragons would remain with House Targaryen that way.

While daughters could naturally receive dragons, it would be logical if they tried to keep the dragons with the main line as much as would be possible.

So Rhaenys would then have gotten Meleys because she was Aemons child, and Aemon was heir to the throne (which most logically gives him a dragon too). Laenor could have received an egg of Meleys, hatching Seasmoke. Why Laena received Vhagar, I don't know.

Viserys had Balerion and Daemon Caraxes, so it makes sense that Baelon had a dragon as well. Alyssa, his sister-wife, and the eldest daughter, would make a fine candidate for a dragonrider as well.

It could be that only the eldest daughter received a dragon, and thus Daella, who married outside of the family, didn't.

With this many children, it seems likely that the younger children did not receive a dragon of their own.

That could potentially lead to dragons ending up in the possession of other families, and that could be dangerous.

Also, Kcenturion, I can't check now, and the order of Jaehaerys and Alysanne's children isn't completely stuck in my memory yet, but I seem to recall that Viserra was older than Maegelle (you list Maegelle as having been older than Viserra).

Regarding dragons, I've made this little graph to put things in perspective.

Nice graph. Jaehaerys and Jaehaera were born in 123 AC though, not 124 AC. ;)

[Hardstone]

I listed them from memory so I'll check the book and edit if needed. :)

I'm swaying that there wasn't that many riders after all. Damn, when it was first confirmed that J1 and Alysanne had 9 children, there were so many possibilties and mishaps to whittle down the numbers.

I had Daella lined up as Meleys' potential first rider on my less stylish graph.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

It is of course possible that Daella was Medley' rider, and that Rhaenys acquired Meleys in 82 AC, after Daella had died.

[Colonel Green]

My default assumption is that Prince Aemon rode Vhagar, and Rhaenys was thus able to assert a kind of family claim on him and have it given to her daughter.

[Barty]

Interesting - the North clearly has had some tensions with the Targaryens. Wish there had been more information about the Company of the Rose - they sound awesome. I dont think they were knelt - they exiled themselves because they refused to kneel when Torrhen gave up his crown

[Hardstone]

Interesting - the North clearly has had some tensions with the Targaryens. Wish there had been more information about the Company of the Rose - they sound awesome. I dont think they were knelt - they exiled themselves because they refused to kneel when Torrhen gave up his crown

The realm they belonged to had knelt to a higher monarch so in the aftermath of this, they decided to rise and make their own life elsewhere. How else would you explain Rose? They ain't no Tyrell.

Unless there is some historical parallel I'm not aware of...

[Lord Annaly]

There are two ways someone can get a dragon.

A dragon egg is put into the royal cradle

Or a person can approach a dragon and hope & pray that they will be accepted.

A child may be given an egg but no-one is given a dragon.

Trying to discount someone, even a lowly daughter, from ever having a dragon is tricky because we have seen many princesses who have had eggs and those who have bonded with adult dragons.

Elaena had an egg and yet she was the third daughter so not a case of the eldest who would probably marry the crown prince and keep it in the family.

Prince Daemon's twins (the Pentos Two) both were given eggs yet they were not in the main line or ever likely to be so they possibly could have been married off to any House.

Alysanne's daughters may or may not have been given eggs as babes but even if they all were it is possible that some or all of them did not hatch. Or like Rhaena of Pentos it could have died soon after.

Vaegon being called the Dragonless would seem to imply that he alone of his brothers did not have a dragon, maybe the only child of the king who's egg failed to hatch.

We are told that once a person has bonded with a dragon they will never ride another even if their dies. But does that include those who loose a a hatchling before it matures to be ridable? Rhaena of Pentos' case implies that she got a second chance at hatching one...or was that just a case of parents humouring a child despite the likelyhood of no second hatching for her?

Also if an egg does not hatch for a princeling is it recycled and regifted at a later date to see if it will for someone else??

We also have the situation whereby a king decrees who gets an egg...Viserys decreed that Rhaenyra's Velayron boys should be gifted an egg...granted he considered Jacerys as a future king.

So the eggs are gifts from the king to whatever child he wishes to have one...male or female...Targaryen or not.

But then there are those whose eggs failed to hatch or those who did not get an egg .....now they do not get a gift from the king of a live dragon so if they decide to be brave enough they can approach any riderless dragon and gods willing become a dragonlord (or lady).

I have not looked at hereditary dragons but we do have cases where a dragon has chosen to bond with the son or grandson of their last rider...of the top of my head Maegor was chosen by Balerion, Seasmoke went to Laenor's "son" and Quicksilver went to Aenys' son Aegon.

[Colonel Green]

We are told that once a person has bonded with a dragon they will never ride another even if their dies.

No, we're not told that. In fact, Viserys I is explicitly said to have remained dragonless after Balerion solely by choice (perhaps no other mount could compare).

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

It's that no dragon can have two riders at the same time, and that a dragon can have a new rider after their original rider has died. As Viserys I remained dragonless after the death of his dragon by choice, you can probably also bond with a new dragon when yours has died.

Other examples of these believes are Rhaena of Pentos getting a new egg to hatch after her hatchling died, and Rhaenyra wanting to return to Dragonstone after the death of Syrax to get more dragons (she herself was the only rider remaining), heavily suggest that a rider can bond with another dragon, if their dragon has died.

[RumHam]

It's that no dragon can have two riders at the same time, and that a dragon can have a new rider after their original rider has died. As Viserys I remained dragonless after the death of his dragon by choice, you can probably also bond with a new dragon when yours has died.

Other examples of these believes are Rhaena of Pentos getting a new egg to hatch after her hatchling died, and Rhaenyra wanting to return to Dragonstone after the death of Syrax to get more dragons (she herself was the only rider remaining), heavily suggest that a rider can bond with another dragon, if their dragon has died.

To play devil's advocate, Rhaena never rode her hatchling, and Rhaenyra may have been referring to Moondancer and Baela. As in "I must have another dragon on my side." The thing about Viserys I is trickier to get around, but the actual line:

King Viserys never claimed another dragon after Balerion’s death, nor did he have much taste for the joust, the hunt, or swordplay, whereas Prince Daemon excelled in these spheres and seemed all that his brother was not

Doesn't really say he chose not to, it states the fact that he did not. Yes this would be strange wording if Glydayn knew there was no possibility of him claiming another, but this could be attributed to the maester's ignorance. I mean it's really never come up right? We have no examples of a Targaryen losing one dragon and then claiming another? So maybe Glydayn just assumes it wouldn't be an issue?

[Colonel Green]

I would think there'd be a decent historical record on Viserys' not taking another dragon, since it resulted in there being a dragonless monarch.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

The realm they belonged to had knelt to a higher monarch so in the aftermath of this, they decided to rise and make their own life elsewhere. How else would you explain Rose? They ain't no Tyrell.

Unless there is some historical parallel I'm not aware of...

I think 'the Rose' does mean those that didn't kneel but my head is screaming that it should be 'The Company of the Risen' unless they pulled a double meaning and used the Blue Winter Rose as their symbol.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

To play devil's advocate, Rhaena never rode her hatchling, and Rhaenyra may have been referring to Moondancer and Baela. As in "I must have another dragon on my side." The thing about Viserys I is trickier to get around, but the actual line:

Doesn't really say he chose not to, it states the fact that he did not. Yes this would be strange wording if Glydayn knew there was no possibility of him claiming another, but this could be attributed to the maester's ignorance. I mean it's really never come up right? We have no examples of a Targaryen losing one dragon and then claiming another? So maybe Glydayn just assumes it wouldn't be an issue?

Placing eggs in the cradle is to increase the bond between dragon and rider, right? And only one rider per dragon at a time is because of the bonding, right? So if Rhaena had bonded with her first dragon, then she would prove that it was possible with Morning.

As to Rhaenyra:

Ser Harrold Darke urged her to seek refuge with Lady Arryn in the Vale, whilst Ser Medrick Manderly tried to persuade her to accompany him and his brother Ser Torrhen back to White Harbor, but Her Grace refused them both. She was adamant on returning to Dragonstone. There she would find dragon’s eggs, she told her loyalists; she must have another dragon, or all was lost.

Rhaenyra was speaking about herself here, and possibly Aegon. Neither had an egg anymore. Had it purely been about the eggs, she could have travelled to the Vale, where Rhaena was with at least 2 eggs, possibly 3 (depending on when Morning had hatched).

GRRM said about Viserys

Viserys I flew Balerion, I seem to recall. When the Black Dread died (of old age, not in war), he did not take a second dragon.

"he did not take a second dragon".. To me it would sound like he could have taken another dragon, had he wanted to.

It's true that we've not yet seen an example of it actually occuring, but whether it is possible or not, it would seem that at least the Targaryens themselves believe it is possible.

And I think it would be strange if it wouldn't be possible? If a dragon can bond with multiple riders, (one at a time), why wouldn't a rider be able to bond with multiple dragons, if only one at a time?

[HexMachina]

I assumed Aemon rode Meleys and she then went to Rhaenys after he died. She was no stranger to battle, according to the text, and Aemon died in battle iirc?

[Jaak]

There are two ways someone can get a dragon.

A dragon egg is put into the royal cradle

Or a person can approach a dragon and hope & pray that they will be accepted.

A child may be given an egg but no-one is given a dragon.

Can we rule it out?

We only have an example of Aemond taming Vhagar, which was completely unauthorized. Had he asked permission of his parents or encountered any guards on his way to castle yards, rather than just the three year old Joffrey, he would have been forcibly stopped from attempting to tame Vhagar.

How did Targaryen children normally tame preowned dragons? Laena and Helaena are introduced as riders of Vhagar and Dreamfyre... both are 12. When did they tame these dragons, and did THEY have a prior permission of anyone to attempt taming the dragon? Or indeed instruction/prompting to tame the dragon?

[Lord Annaly]

It's that no dragon can have two riders at the same time, and that a dragon can have a new rider after their original rider has died. As Viserys I remained dragonless after the death of his dragon by choice, you can probably also bond with a new dragon when yours has died.

Other examples of these believes are Rhaena of Pentos getting a new egg to hatch after her hatchling died, and Rhaenyra wanting to return to Dragonstone after the death of Syrax to get more dragons (she herself was the only rider remaining), heavily suggest that a rider can bond with another dragon, if their dragon has died.

Fair enough

[Lord Annaly]

Can we rule it out?

We only have an example of Aemond taming Vhagar, which was completely unauthorized. Had he asked permission of his parents or encountered any guards on his way to castle yards, rather than just the three year old Joffrey, he would have been forcibly stopped from attempting to tame Vhagar.

How did Targaryen children normally tame preowned dragons? Laena and Helaena are introduced as riders of Vhagar and Dreamfyre... both are 12. When did they tame these dragons, and did THEY have a prior permission of anyone to attempt taming the dragon? Or indeed instruction/prompting to tame the dragon?

From what we know it is up to the dragon whether or not it will accept whoever presents themselves to it.

When I say no one is given a dragon I mean that the king can not give a particular dragon to a particular person.

Yes the king may give permission for a person to try out for the dragon but unless the dragon holds fire the king's wish is worthless.

For what we know it is the dragon who chooses not anyone else.

So if a Targaryen relative was not given an egg at birth they still could become a dragonrider if they decided to test out their luck and approach a riderless dragon.

I wonder if a dragon ever chose a rider who did not try or present themselves to a dragon?

[RumHam]

Placing eggs in the cradle is to increase the bond between dragon and rider, right? And only one rider per dragon at a time is because of the bonding, right? So if Rhaena had bonded with her first dragon, then she would prove that it was possible with Morning.

My understanding is that there's "bonding" like you would bond with your pet dog, the animal gets used to your presence and thus is less likely to bite you. Then there's "the bond" that seems to be cemented when you ride the dragon. Like with Aemond and Vhaegar. This is something magic based and is the thing that prevents one person from riding two dragons (at the same time.) I could be wrong about this, but if I was than Daenerys would be bound to all three of her dragons and I think we can agree that is not the case.

As to Rhaenyra:

Rhaenyra was speaking about herself here, and possibly Aegon. Neither had an egg anymore. Had it purely been about the eggs, she could have travelled to the Vale, where Rhaena was with at least 2 eggs, possibly 3 (depending on when Morning had hatched).

Yes I really should have read more of the quote than "I must have another dragon." I missed the part about the eggs :dunce:

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

My understanding is that there's "bonding" like you would bond with your pet dog, the animal gets used to your presence and thus is less likely to bite you. Then there's "the bond" that seems to be cemented when you ride the dragon. Like with Aemond and Vhaegar. This is something magic based and is the thing that prevents one person from riding two dragons (at the same time.) I could be wrong about this, but if I was than Daenerys would be bound to all three of her dragons and I think we can agree that is not the case.

I thought that Dany had dreams about Dragon, and a special connection to Drogon, even before he hatched? Which then might have come from the fact that she held Drogon's egg first (out of all the nightly sessions of egg-holding).. or simply the most often?

But perhaps putting eggs in the cradle is simply so the Targaryen children won't fight amongst each other for the hatchling when only one egg every so many years hatches or something :p