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Do we really need Maggy's prophecy? Or did it really happen?


Mithras

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I mean, if you remove it from the story, do you think that Cersei's story loses anything? Is there a need for such a motive for her feeble machinations?



ETA: Or can this Maggy episode be the product of Cersei's deranged mind as Balerion06 suspected?


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I think it does feel a little forced.



Once Cersei made up her mind that Tyrion murdered Joffery, she had plenty of reason to fear and loathe him--and she had reason before Joffery's death just by virtue of Tyrion being a dwarf, Joanna Lannister's death, and--well--Cersei being Cersei.



I think the prophecy is supposed to do a few things.


1) make her more sympathetic--oh no! she's been fearing for her life this whole time because of something a witch told her! Poor Cersei! It works on some, doesn't on others. That's the nature of subjective reading.


2) Set up her children's deaths, though it's obviously not subtle foreshadowing like other foreshadowed deaths have been.


3) The irony of (imo) Jaime killing her and being her Volanqar. But it would have been just as poetic/shocking without the prophecy. Now it's just a way for us to pat ourselves on the back if we get it right.


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Hisssss nooo.
It's not something thats easily ignored, but if you don't pay much attention to foresahdowing (like me) its not hard to miss.

One of the worst parts of the books imo. I came to the conclusion that Jaime would probs kill her and Myrcella adn Tommen are in dangerous places without it.

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Jaime isn't going to kill Cersei. I think he has enabled her death by forming a close bond with Brienne, however. I do believe that the turning point in Brienne's story will see her dealing with a situation similar to Jaime and Aerys, and having to come to grips with her decision and self-righteousness.


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I'm doing my essay about that for the Cersei/Dany parallel. So, it is important. :P



Here is the thing. What would happen if someone tells you "you are going to die in the next five minutes"?. Chances are that you will leave the place so hurriedly that a car would hit you and kill you. That's what Cersei's plot is. She's not a creature to understand or receive magic or anything related to magic. She is mundane.



The problem with the prophecy is what Maggy told Cersei is nothing out of ordinary either. She told Cersei "one day, you will get old" and embellished it because she forced her to do it: Cersei had no more destiny than being a woman, having kids, get old and die. Cersei had two choices: accept it or fight it. But, that's something no one, not even the heroes, can escape. She believes the prophecy is something more than what it is because she herself believes that.



People like Dany or Jon, otoh, are naturally magical: prophecies involving them were made even before they were born. And those who are meant to help them in any way are also having their fortunes being told: Tyrion, Victarion, Stannis. And even Quaithe and the House of the Undying have mentioning other people meant to play a role.



But... in those kind of prophecies or visions, Cersei does not appear, despite she IS the Queen. Whatever "controls" the magic in Westeros cares little for Cersei being Queen because the game of thrones is not important. And the power Cersei holds so dear means little.

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No. Also, I actually would have removed the ghost of high heart prophecy and the undying prophecies as well.



They actually get particularly bad because of forums like this and the over analysis sucking so much mystery out of the novels but I found this god forsaken place, so it would be better for me as a reader.



Now some key elements in this unlike the other prophecies are not that hard to guess (though who is the beautiful queen isn't but the fact there is and Cersei falls is) for a singular reader in contrast to the unintentional assembly line of analysis that are the forums so while the others I might leave this is particularly egregious.



It does feel kind of unnecessary and forced. But that is a much smaller crime than making the future seem a lot more boring and predictable. Sucking the excitement of the spontaneity of events by seeing them happen a lot before they do. The whole background around the prophecy with Cersei throwing her friend down the well also removes some ambiguity about Cersei's character. I guess at a plus point it means less Cersei fanboys and fangirls, I guess, but still she appears as more of a caricature for it and the whole prophecy. And I don't think it was needed as an explanation for her actions.


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Yeah, I always enjoyed the whole prophecy thing. It really trumps up her own paranoia factor when she sees Tyrion in every shadow. The funny thing is, it's really a self fulfilling prophecy. Had she just been nice to Tyrion, he probably would've been loyal to her to the end.


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Considering that the TV show had a scene



in which Cersei was about to poison Tommen thinking that the city has fallen during the Blackwater;



and in the next season, it is confirmed that



Maggy and her prophecy will be included;



I wonder what are D&D up to.



Do they need extra whitewashing of Cersei or introducing more character depth to her? I don't think it is needed. Even George admitted that book Cersei is a monster whereas the show-Cersei is quite human (i.e. whitewashed).





I think it does feel a little forced.



Once Cersei made up her mind that Tyrion murdered Joffery, she had plenty of reason to fear and loathe him--and she had reason before Joffery's death just by virtue of Tyrion being a dwarf, Joanna Lannister's death, and--well--Cersei being Cersei.



I think the prophecy is supposed to do a few things.


1) make her more sympathetic--oh no! she's been fearing for her life this whole time because of something a witch told her! Poor Cersei! It works on some, doesn't on others. That's the nature of subjective reading.


2) Set up her children's deaths, though it's obviously not subtle foreshadowing like other foreshadowed deaths have been.


3) The irony of (imo) Jaime killing her and being her Volanqar. But it would have been just as poetic/shocking without the prophecy. Now it's just a way for us to pat ourselves on the back if we get it right.





Agree with all. There are tonnes of subtle foreshadowing about the deaths of Cersei's children and Cersei/Jaime killing each other. Maggy's prophecy is certainly not necessary to make sense of these.



Or, it might be possible that George still has something in his sleeve which can only make sense with the presence of Maggy's prophecy.


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The merit of having included a prophecy comes when the prophecy is fulfilled. Judging now is to judge before the pay off.

If we didnot have Cersei POVs (and so no access to Maggy's prophecy), we would have no difficulty in explaining what she is doing in AFfC. Take Margaery. Someone commented that she and Cersei were quibbling over Tommen like two bitches and a chicken bone. That is very natural because Tommen is the child king and whoever controls him gets the power. We do not need Cersei's obsession that Margaery is the prophecized queen to doom her because we can make perfect sense even without that knowledge.

We are yet to see how the prophecy will be fulfilled but so far the prophecy seems redundant and the outcome of the prophecy seems straightforward and natural. In fact, this is more like fortune telling than a prophecy.

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Sure, we need it as much as humanity needs the ebola virus.





Here is the thing. What would happen if someone tells you "you are going to die in the next five minutes"?. Chances are that you will leave the place so hurriedly that a car would hit you and kill you.



No, chances are I'd laugh in his face.


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Also keep in mind the side effects of Cersei being obsessed with the prophecy.



She has heard (and keeps hearing inside her head) that a young queen would rise to be more beautiful than her, then that she's going to lose all she holds dear, and at the end of it all a "little brother" will come and kill her. This makes her extremely wary of beautiful girls, obsessed with keeping her children safe, and she sees Tyrion in every shadow.



However, this also makes her oblivious to all other dangers. She believes, intensely, that some young queen will take her role, and that Tyrion will kill her. But her sole focus on those things makes her totally blind to other threats to herself (such as heavy drinking, fire, or making enemies). After all, she is certain that Tyrion is going to off her after a beautiful queen comes along, so with no queens in sight there is no danger.



I wonder if this focus is what will be her undoing in the end. Always on the lookout for attractive young females/ugly little siblings, while strolling headfirst into some other dangers she doesn't even see. The perfect way for her to go would be another paranoia-induced drinking binge, walking through the Red Keep hearing Tyrion around every corner. Then she'd stumble down her staircase in a drunken stupor, her last thought being "Wait! This isn't how it's supposed to be!" before breaking her head against a wall.


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I mean, if you remove it from the story, do you think that Cersei's story loses anything? Is there a need for such a motive for her feeble machinations?

GRRM seems to think so, and his editors apparently agree, despite all we hear about tryin to cut down word count all the time.

The merit of having included a prophecy comes when the prophecy is fulfilled. Judging now is to judge before the pay off.

This. If you don't agree with GRRM and his editors, it might be because judgement is premature (or it might just be that you disagree with them :) )

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I mean, if you remove it from the story, do you think that Cersei's story loses anything? Is there a need for such a motive for her feeble machinations?

Hard to say.

I think it certainly was not a curse cast by Maggy upon Cersei. Nothing caused Cersei to be a destructive psychopath whose misdeeds must one day backfire on her. The old woman simply made a very accurate weather forecast, and the future she saw may already have been set.

Yet, it's certainly brought out Cersei's paranoia in certain very specific ways. This begs the question of whether knowing the future, and making decisions based upon that knowledge, inadvertently locks you into it.

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Yet, it's certainly brought out Cersei's paranoia in certain very specific ways. This begs the question of whether knowing the future, and making decisions based upon that knowledge, inadvertently locks you into it.

This is a problem George touched with Mel too. Apparently, she killed Renly so that he would not defeat Stannis at KL; but killing Renly directly led to Garlan wearing Renly's armour and defeating Stannis all the same. Later, Mel thought in her POV that she needs to take action to prevent the bad visions coming true ("otherwise what is the point of seeing them" she thinks). That is the recipe for getting kicked in the balls each time by a prophecy.

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If we didnot have Cersei POVs (and so no access to Maggy's prophecy), we would have no difficulty in explaining what she is doing in AFfC. Take Margaery. Someone commented that she and Cersei were quibbling over Tommen like two bitches and a chicken bone. That is very natural because Tommen is the child king and whoever controls him gets the power. We do not need Cersei's obsession that Margaery is the prophecized queen to doom her because we can make perfect sense even without that knowledge.

We are yet to see how the prophecy will be fulfilled but so far the prophecy seems redundant and the outcome of the prophecy seems straightforward and natural. In fact, this is more like fortune telling than a prophecy.

The pay off is not in explaining Cersei's motives it's in creating and toying with the expectations of the reader. The prophecy hasn't been fulfilled, when it has we can assess if it was worthwhile.

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