Jump to content

Do we really need Maggy's prophecy? Or did it really happen?


Mithras

Recommended Posts

For me, as far as the story so far is concerned, Maggy's prophecy adds nothing to the story because Cersei's actions towards Tyrion/Marg are completely reasonable within the context. On the contrary, this prophecy contaminates the story because it gives an out-of-context motive to Cersei and since it progresses in a self-fulfilling manner, we cannot be even sure whether Cersei would do these things had she not stepped in that tent.

At one hand, we have Bran who is able to speak with past (but apparently nothing changed in the present time) and at the other hand, we have these sneak peaks of future in terms of visions and prophecies but that knowledge does not seem to change the future as well; instead, the very knowledge of that prophecized future becomes the reason of that future coming true.

Pycelle said that some doors are better be kept closed when Cersei asked him if it was possible to see the future. Is that the message of George?

:agree:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not going to criticize the prophecy until I see what Martin ultimately chooses to do with it. But so far, I can't say I'm a fan.



I have my own personal crackpot that Maggy's prophecy never actually happened, at least not in the way Cersei remembers it. Perhaps all Maggy did was give some morbid generic future to Cersei, and Cersei's own paranoia keeps inventing new details about what the prophecy entails. Consider how the prophecy continually gets more and more specific the more Cersei gets paranoid and crazy.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not going to criticize the prophecy until I see what Martin ultimately chooses to do with it. But so far, I can't say I'm a fan.

I have my own personal crackpot that Maggy's prophecy never actually happened, at least not in the way Cersei remembers it. Perhaps all Maggy did was give some morbid generic future to Cersei, and Cersei's own paranoia keeps inventing new details about what the prophecy entails. Consider how the prophecy continually gets more and more specific the more Cersei gets paranoid and crazy.

I like this explanation! Cersei is expert in creating false memories.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not going to criticize the prophecy until I see what Martin ultimately chooses to do with it. But so far, I can't say I'm a fan.

I have my own personal crackpot that Maggy's prophecy never actually happened, at least not in the way Cersei remembers it. Perhaps all Maggy did was give some morbid generic future to Cersei, and Cersei's own paranoia keeps inventing new details about what the prophecy entails. Consider how the prophecy continually gets more and more specific the more Cersei gets paranoid and crazy.

Oh I had never actually thought about it that way, but that would be really neat!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am not arguing :-) I do think that Jaime is a likelier candidate, but it would be an interesting twist to let Tyrion be the valonquar both because he would be driven to it by Cersei's own actions and because he is the obvious choice, which hasn't been the case so far. It would be a deviation from the current pattern of the way prophecies are usually fulfilled.

Self-fulfilling prophecy means that people bring it on themselves by acting to prevent it from happening. It depends on how the author handles it, of course, but the irony of such an action has a great potential.

Fair enough. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have my own personal crackpot that Maggy's prophecy never actually happened, at least not in the way Cersei remembers it. Perhaps all Maggy did was give some morbid generic future to Cersei, and Cersei's own paranoia keeps inventing new details about what the prophecy entails. Consider how the prophecy continually gets more and more specific the more Cersei gets paranoid and crazy.

Why can't this forum have a Like button?

See, this is the sort of twist I'd really enjoy. Not a self-fulfilling prophecy, but a self-creating one. False memories, leading Cersei to believe she's been told her future, and whenever something bad happens to her, she unconsciously retcons the prophecy to entail that bit too, reinforcing her belief that a terrible fate is catching up to her.

Then again, much as I'd like to believe it, there are a couple of points that makes it pretty certain that Cersei at least heard some phrases of her prophecy. She wouldn't come up with the word "Valonqar" by herself, and Maggy's count of Robert's bastards seemed oddly specific (on the other hand, we haven't heard the exact number confirmed anywhere, and if Cersei has, she'd change her memory to fit to that number anyway). She also remembers being surprised to hear that she wouldn't marry the prince, but the king. Seeing that bit become true, despite all odds, a few years later, would definitely reinforce her belief in the rest of whatever she (thinks she) heard, though. I'd say your theory has some merit, but there are reasons to believe that Cersei heard at least parts of what she remembers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

it''s very important because it pretty much shapes Cercei as a character. she was never able to forget that prophecy because it predicted her doom and now she's so obsessed with changing that fate, but ironically it's probably the reason the prophecy will come true. it's a self fullfilling prophecy, if she hadn't known she might not have hated Tyrion as much, might not have been so obsessed with bringing down maergery. maybe she would have been less bitter and less impulsive even. without this prophecy, cercei would have been an entirely different character.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why can't this forum have a Like button?

See, this is the sort of twist I'd really enjoy. Not a self-fulfilling prophecy, but a self-creating one. False memories, leading Cersei to believe she's been told her future, and whenever something bad happens to her, she unconsciously retcons the prophecy to entail that bit too, reinforcing her belief that a terrible fate is catching up to her.

How could the memories possibly be shown/proved false, when the only other two people present at the event are dead?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How could the memories possibly be shown/proved false, when the only other two people present at the event are dead?

That's... a fairly good point.

I guess it could be implied that her memory is faulty/self-manipulated if we were shown another flashback with the prophecy, but with a different wording, and Cersei strongly believing the alternate wording later. But that would be a little contrived, so, well, I guess you're right. The way it's set up by Martin means it would be hard to pull off a "false memories" twist. Had there been a living witness, it could have been done much easier, but with no witnesses but Cersei to the actual citation of the prophecy, there would be no way to prove either wording right or wrong.

My little crackpot of the prophecy being faulty or irrelevant remains, though. How ironic wouldn't it be if a prophecy-obsessed person would be killed by something entirely unrelated, which she didn't see coming because she never considered any alternatives to the prophecy?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

About memory manipulation of Cersei, here is a wonderful Purple Wedding theory. It is basically argued that Cersei tried to poison Tyrion with the poisoned pie but she ended up killing Joffrey when he unexpectedly came and ate Tyrion's pie. The reason why Cersei never recalls any of this and blames Tyrion (and Tyrion only) for Joffrey's murder is the result of her memory manipulation and abusive personality (abusive people blame the victims for why they abuse them - a man who beats his wife thinks that it is the wife's fault because she made him do that). In this case, Cersei reworked her memory and blamed Tyrion because he didnot eat the pie and die as he was supposed to do.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

How could the memories possibly be shown/proved false, when the only other two people present at the event are dead?

You don't have to explicitly show the memories of Maggy being false, but you could definitely hint towards it. For example, you could have Cersei meet some other fortune teller in one of her POV chapters who gives her some mundane generic future that she immediately dismisses, but as things start to go to hell around her (well, more to hell than they are already) you can have her recollections of the crappy fortune become more and more unhinged and specific to the situation she's in now.

Shrugs. Just a thought.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Perhaps the entire Maggy episode was invented by Cersei to provide a pretext for her murdering Melara (probably because she got jealous of Jaime).



Cersei turned on him in green-eyed fury. “Are you utterly witless? Did you read what he says? The boy Joffrey, he calls him. And he dares to accuse me of incest, adultery, and treason!”

Only because you’re guilty. It was astonishing to see how angry Cersei could wax over accusations she knew perfectly well to be true. If we lose the war, she ought to take up mummery, she has a gift for it.


Cersei has a gift.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Perhaps the entire Maggy episode was invented by Cersei to provide a pretext for her murdering Melara (probably because she got jealous of Jaime).

Cersei turned on him in green-eyed fury. “Are you utterly witless? Did you read what he says? The boy Joffrey, he calls him. And he dares to accuse me of incest, adultery, and treason!”

Only because you’re guilty. It was astonishing to see how angry Cersei could wax over accusations she knew perfectly well to be true. If we lose the war, she ought to take up mummery, she has a gift for it.

Cersei has a gift.

Lying to others convincing is a lot different than inventing false memories and believing their veracity.

I just don't see real evidence that Cersei was anywhere near unhinged enough to invent something so major and convince herself it actually happened.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

*shrugg* I don't get why people hate it so much. But I guess I'm biased myself. As much as I bitch about cheesyness I just love cheesy (self-fullfilling) prophecies. I also like that Cersei turns out to be cray-cray. Her utter denial about having killed Melara (because I'll eat my hat if she hasn't) is puzzling me a bit, though. She doesn't shy away from incest, torture and stuff but that seems to have been even for her brain to much to comprehend.




Cersei is not nearly as unhinged as these "false memories" theories present her.




I don't know about "false memories" theories but Cersei is pretty damend unhinged. If you read her first POV chapter again after a while of not having been in her head: Holy moly. :uhoh:


Link to comment
Share on other sites

it''s very important because it pretty much shapes Cercei as a character. she was never able to forget that prophecy because it predicted her doom and now she's so obsessed with changing that fate, but ironically it's probably the reason the prophecy will come true. it's a self fullfilling prophecy, if she hadn't known she might not have hated Tyrion as much, might not have been so obsessed with bringing down maergery. maybe she would have been less bitter and less impulsive even. without this prophecy, cercei would have been an entirely different character.

Well, this is the repetition of Mel's story.

Lying to others convincing is a lot different than inventing false memories and believing their veracity.

I just don't see real evidence that Cersei was anywhere near unhinged enough to invent something so major and convince herself it actually happened.

I think lying is an understatement in this case.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it does feel a little forced.

Once Cersei made up her mind that Tyrion murdered Joffery, she had plenty of reason to fear and loathe him--and she had reason before Joffery's death just by virtue of Tyrion being a dwarf, Joanna Lannister's death, and--well--Cersei being Cersei.

I think the prophecy is supposed to do a few things.

1) make her more sympathetic--oh no! she's been fearing for her life this whole time because of something a witch told her! Poor Cersei! It works on some, doesn't on others. That's the nature of subjective reading.

2) Set up her children's deaths, though it's obviously not subtle foreshadowing like other foreshadowed deaths have been.

3) The irony of (imo) Jaime killing her and being her Volanqar. But it would have been just as poetic/shocking without the prophecy. Now it's just a way for us to pat ourselves on the back if we get it right.

This is how I always interpreted it. Cersei says that volanqar means little brother so she assumes it''s Tyrion who will kill her, but we know that Cersei was born before Jaime. So Jaime is perfectly capable of fulfilling the prophecy as well, yet Cersei never thinks about that. And we've seen that Jaime has turned his back on her, so I'm expecting Jaime to fulfill the prophecy.

Once you realize though that Jaime fits the volanqar, it's less shocking when he finally does it. Would have been better to have left out the fact that Jaime was born second, and instead only have it revealed as Cersei's dying. Have her last thoughts be like "Cersei had forgotten. How could she have forgotten that Jaime had been born second. He was the volanqar, not Tyrion..."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...