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Heresy 142 [World of Ice and Fire spoilers]

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Welcome to Heresy 142 the latest edition of the long-running thread that takes a sideways and sometimes quirky look at the Song of Ice and Fire.



The Heresy is that these threads challenge the conventional assumption that the story is all about defeating the Others and that it is going to end with Jon Snow being identified as Azor Ahai and perhaps using Dany’s Amazing Dragons to destroy the Others. Indeed Heresy questions whether the Others are really the threat they appear, or perhaps more accurately whether they are indeed an icy version of a Dothraki horde, or whether on the one hand that particular threat is at once more complicated and much closer to home, while on the other hand the dragons, far from being the saviours of mankind, may turn out to be the real threat.



This particular thread opens amidst the revelations of the World of Ice and Fire. An embargo is still in place for a few more days until 28 November [Heresy’s third birthday] requiring the use of the Spoilers warning in the title, so if you haven’t yet indulged in a copy of te World book and would rather not know just yet – look way now.



The world of Heresy might at first appear confusing if you’ve not been here before. Normally we range pretty widely and more or less in free-fall, in an effort to try and reach an understanding of what may really be happening through the resulting collision of ideas. We are in other words engaged in an exercise in chaos theory. It’s about making connections, sometimes real sometimes thematic, between east and west, between the various beliefs and types of magick - and also about reconciling the dodgy timelines. However, beyond the firm belief that things are not as they seem, there is no such thing as an accepted heretic view on Craster’s sons or any of the other topics discussed here, and the fiercest critics of some of the ideas discussed on these pages are our fellow heretics.



If new to Heresy you may also want to refer to to Wolfmaid's essential guide to Heresy: http://asoiaf.wester...uide-to-heresy/, which provides annotated links to all the previous editions of Heresy, latterly identified by topic.




Don’t be intimidated by the size and scope of Heresy, or by some of the ideas we’ve discussed over the years. We’re very good at talking in circles and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask, but be patient and observe the local house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all with great good humour.



Oh, and don’t forget Snowfyre’s health warning:



WARNING: Mental exercise is essential for a healthy life. But if you do not already exercise your mind, you should seek the advice of your doctor prior to beginning this or any other mental activity. Not all thought exercises are suitable for everyone, and any use of your imagination may result in injury to preconceived worldviews. Consult with your doctor before embarking on theories with The Snowfyre Chorus or other self-acknowledged Heretics. If you experience pain or discomfort during consideration of any theory, stop immediately and consult your doctor. The creators, producers, participants and distributors of Heresy-related theories cannot guarantee that component ideas are proper for every individual, or "safe" for his or her preconceived narrative expectations.



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Yes, the World book got me thinking along the same lines. Also evolution and migration but in the context of this world. With the Ragnarok theory, the oldest beings and peoples in the world would be the most cold-adapted. And look who is up north - the Others, then the children/giants, and the Ibbenese, who are compared to the early humans of our world though they can interbreed despite what Yandel says if Ben Plumm's grandma was one. The First Men themselves might have been an earlier people than the Andals, not just earlier arrivals in Westeros, as they seem to withstand the cold better.

But who knows what's going on in Sothyros and the islands. Martin would never likely go into a theory like this in the novels, but to me the World book doesnt have to strongly support it but it can't contradict it either. From what I can see, a Ragnarok ice world that slowly changed through magic is at least not inconsistent with the little we have about evolution on the planet.

Just to continue from Heresy 141, I'd hesitate to equate Martin's World to a Ragnarok one if only because that might be too obvious, but its worth bearing in mind that in our world period ice ages have occasioned population movements both as people move south to escape the expanding ice-cap and then north again as it recedes, so there is nothing inherently unlikely in the First Men moving into Westeros as the days grew warmer.

Perhaps a mistake we're making is equating the magic which screwed the seasons as being of recent origin and associated with the Long Night. Perhaps its earlier and had something to do with that mysterious elder race associated with the basalt ruins and the seastone chair, and that the First Men who entered Westeros across the Arm of Dorne were entering on to a land which had once been tundra. I've spoken before about the breaking of the Arm having a real world precedent in the breaking of the Wealden-Artois Anticline - by the calving of an ice-cap which extended far to the south of the present one. If that was how the children broke the Arm that would imply that the Westerosi ice cap was then further south and that the conquest by the First Men took place at a time when the ice was still retreating. After all, the Long Night, lasting about 13 years only qualifies at best as a mini-ice age such as occurred in our 17th century rather than a full blown one lasting centuries or more

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Yeah theze places like Moat Cailin and Oldtown are, or were at one time, hotspots for magic. They built these focal points for their fiery purposes. Similar to the film 'The Arrival'. (Of course in the film it was aliens who used newly built power plants to raise the temperature of the earth to make way for their own race.) But it could be something similar using magic to disrupt the seasons.

Then again, I've been thinking that some of the stories of darkness from old civilisations in the Far East may have come from before the Long Night of Westeros fame. In the past I debated that the original AA may have been before the LN, and I think it could be that a seperate occasion in other parts of the world occured previously. The world book seems like it is describing the same event around the planet, but I'm not 100% sure about that.

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Just an addition to the discussion in the previous thread about the role of Dany and the dragons as destroyers -

For my part, I agree that Dany and the dragons represent a major threat to Westeros, but I see them as a concurrent threat with the Others, rather than one or the other being the 'true threat.'

I've made this comparison before, and I'll make it again, because it rings true to me: I think the larger Fire and Ice conflict that seems to be building up is more a repeat of the Lion and Wolf dynamic that played out in the War of the Five Kings, rather than a good vs. evil situation. We see in the Riverlands that, regardless of whether or not one fought for the Lion or the Wolf, the consequences for your average peasant were the same. That Robb and the Starks are more sympathetic as human beings than Joffrey and Tywin was meaningless for those swept up into their war.

Similarly, I can't imagine that this impending clash of major powers can be anything but disastrous for your average Westerosi, even if we can find sympathy for the motives of the force building up north of the Wall.

Another textual comparison I would make is the Blackwater; GRRM spends all of aCoK building it up, and by the time the battle actually roles around we have characters that are both sympathetic and unsympathetic on both sides, and it becomes difficult to view a victory for either side as something to root for. Instead, it's just more meaningless death for the masses in service of a very small group of entitled noble families.

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Just to continue from Heresy 141, I'd hesitate to equate Martin's World to a Ragnarok one if only because that might be too obvious, but its worth bearing in mind that in our world period ice ages have occasioned population movements both as people move south to escape the expanding ice-cap and then north again as it recedes, so there is nothing inherently unlikely in the First Men moving into Westeros as the days grew warmer.

Perhaps a mistake we're making is equating the magic which screwed the seasons as being of recent origin and associated with the Long Night. Perhaps its earlier and had something to do with that mysterious elder race associated with the basalt ruins and the seastone chair, and that the First Men who entered Westeros across the Arm of Dorne were entering on to a land which had once been tundra. I've spoken before about the breaking of the Arm having a real world precedent in the breaking of the Wealden-Artois Anticline - by the calving of an ice-cap which extended far to the south of the present one. If that was how the children broke the Arm that would imply that the Westerosi ice cap was then further south and that the conquest by the First Men took place at a time when the ice was still retreating. After all, the Long Night, lasting about 13 years only qualifies at best as a mini-ice age such as occurred in our 17th century rather than a full blown one lasting centuries or more

I don't think using Ragnarok is too cliche in that Martin uses Norse mythology obviously, right down to patterning characters off specific gods through physical characteristics and attributes. It gets very murky after some basics, however, and he throws in a lot of other myths and history and good writing on human nature, so few conclusions can be drawn from it. Still, he used Ragnarok and the Norse gods as one pillar of the series' creation and their tales thread through from beginning to end. I'm sure over the years this has been written about ad nauseum on the forums but hopefully familiarity has not bred contempt. I enjoy following up on those references. Today I looked up Skadi as a Night's Queen precedent, and Heimdalr as Hightower, based on new info in the World book about the Hightower words. The connections are there. Coming to conclusions based on them is usually fruitless, but enhances Martin's brilliance in my eyes. The weaving he does with so much material from different sources is awe inspiring.

The reason I was looking those up wasnt because of my ice giant world theory but because of a really interesting conversation on 141 that I wasn't part of regarding Bran's possibly reading the past from a time in the future and reaching out to the past, with a 'ring tone' as you mentioned, or actual words as others thought might be the case, or dreams. It made me think about Odin's two ravens, thought and memory. THAT led me to the structure of the book itself, all the POV characters, as if someone from the future was playing Martin himself, riffling through the thoughts and memories of these characters, sending the odd dream back perhaps to influence them to a different course of action, such as when Jaime goes back to save Brienne, to bring things to a wanted conclusion. It was a bit surreal.

Your paragraph regarding when these events may have taken place makes total sense. It is just as likely, in fact more likely I think because of the World material, that the Long Night was not the beginning of the seasonal irregularity but an overlong symptom of it. I like the idea of the First Men following the decreasing tundra into Westeros. Yandel says he wonders why the Children broke the Arm against the FM as that didn't stop them coming; it was too late. I wondered if it was because they were some fire magic affinities with them and the Children weren't stopping the FM in general at that point but the wave of fire people that were sure to come after them.

Maybe even, specifically, the Dothraki...

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There's absolutely no doubt that GRRM is drawing on the Nordic legends in constructing his story, just as other aspects draw on Celtic legends, both of which may have common roots - and in the case of Ragnarok a memory of the last big Ice Age. And we've also identified other sources ranging from mediaeval history to Conrad's Heart of Darkness, but while yielding to none in my admiration of the way GRRM weaves these together I'm extremely wary of regarding any one of them as dominant or rather of looking at ASoIF as Ragnarok with the names changed to protect the guilty.



Otherwise, yes, I still think reaching further back for the cause of the imbalance makes sense and after all Mel refers to the conflict as one waged since time began, which hyperbole aside suggests its something which has been going on long before 1189.


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I share this view of seasonal imbalance. It seems so fundamental to this universe that it must predate the Dawn Age itself.



And, Lady Barbrey, you may be on to something regarding the Breaking of the Arm.... Four times removed...from Heresy 135, via the Citadel, via Bran's POV in AGOT, so spake Maester Luwin:



But some twelve thousand years ago, the First Men appeared from the east, crossing the Broken Arm of Dorne before it was broken. They came with bronze swords and great leathern shields, riding horses. No horse had ever been seen on this side of the narrow sea. No doubt the children were as frightened by the horses as the First Men were by the faces in the trees. As the First Men carved out holdfasts and farms, they cut down the faces and gave them to the fire. Horror-struck, the children went to war. The old songs say that the greenseers used dark magics to make the seas rise and sweep away the land, shattering the Arm, but it was too late to close the door.



This part stands out to me, "No horse had ever been seen on this side of the narrow sea. No doubt the children were as frightened by the horses as the First Men were by the faces in the trees. " No doubt the Singers knew the First Men would keep coming, but felt they must do something to stop the influx of horses themselves. Or Dothraki. I know this sounds funny, and petty, but why else break the Arm? Men have boats. Perhaps the Maester himself was speaking a bit more accurately than he realized...



While breaking the Arm was an awesome display of magic, what did the Singers hope to accomplish from it? I know the common belief, but in reality, it didn't change things much unless you happened to be a Khal with "southron" intentions :smoking:


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So was the Breaking and the flooding of the Neck one single event, or two separate ones? I used to assume they were different, the WB wording is slightly confusing, sounds a bit like the two were contemporary:

Legend says that the great floods that broke the land bridge that is now the Broken Arm and made the Neck a swamp were the work of the greenseers, who gathered at Moat Cailin to work dark magic. Some contest this, however: the First Men were already in Westeros when this occurred, and stemming the tide from the east would do little more than slow their progress. Moreover, such power is beyond even what the greenseers are traditionally said to have been capable of … and even those accounts appear exaggerated. It is likelier that the inundation of the Neck and the breaking of the Arm were natural events, possibly caused by a natural sinking of the land. What became of Valyria is well-known, and in the Iron Islands, the castle of Pyke sits on stacks of stone that were once part of the greater island before segments of it crumbled into the sea.

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We did actually discuss how the breaking of the Arm and the Hammer of the Waters appear to be one and the same on Heresy 135 [still open for business] but the World Book certainly seems to confirm that to be the case and that's where some of the difficulty arises with the ruins of Moat Cailin - ruins that may pre-date the coming of the First Men.


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Just an addition to the discussion in the previous thread about the role of Dany and the dragons as destroyers -

For my part, I agree that Dany and the dragons represent a major threat to Westeros, but I see them as a concurrent threat with the Others, rather than one or the other being the 'true threat.'

I've made this comparison before, and I'll make it again, because it rings true to me: I think the larger Fire and Ice conflict that seems to be building up is more a repeat of the Lion and Wolf dynamic that played out in the War of the Five Kings, rather than a good vs. evil situation. We see in the Riverlands that, regardless of whether or not one fought for the Lion or the Wolf, the consequences for your average peasant were the same. That Robb and the Starks are more sympathetic as human beings than Joffrey and Tywin was meaningless for those swept up into their war.

Similarly, I can't imagine that this impending clash of major powers can be anything but disastrous for your average Westerosi, even if we can find sympathy for the motives of the force building up north of the Wall.

Another textual comparison I would make is the Blackwater; GRRM spends all of aCoK building it up, and by the time the battle actually roles around we have characters that are both sympathetic and unsympathetic on both sides, and it becomes difficult to view a victory for either side as something to root for. Instead, it's just more meaningless death for the masses in service of a very small group of entitled noble families.

Completely concur. That's why Feast was so important to the story, I think, because we get a real sense of devastation to the commoners throughout Westeros. So many people have died in these wars as soldiers or innocent civilians that every time someone gives numbers in an army, ie he had ten thousand men with him and they almost all die, I start a worried tally in my head - how many people, whatever side they're on, can be left after all this devastation? One of the characters even says the Trident battle is down in history as the battle between Rhaegar and Robert, but believe him there were many others killing and dying in that battle.

Anyway, any time I think of the Dothraki hordes actually crossing to Westeros I shudder for the people, just as much, actually more than, when I think of an Others' invasion. Westeros is going to die, regardless of who might win, unless there is a conversion of 'spirit' or pact. Watching each character's path in human terms shows how likely they may or may not be willing to give up the death dance in a final moment. Doesn't look good for Dany.

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Yes, I rather think the Dothraki are being overlooked in the Dany and her Amazing Dragons scenario, because if she does turn up in Westeros she isn't just going to have the beasties all ready to arrive in the very nick of time to deal with the Others [all six of them - or five if Ser Puddles was one of the original six brothers], she's going to have a murderous Dothraki khalasar as well


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I share this view of seasonal imbalance. It seems so fundamental to this universe that it must predate the Dawn Age itself.

And, Lady Barbrey, you may be on to something regarding the Breaking of the Arm.... Four times removed...from Heresy 135, via the Citadel, via Bran's POV in AGOT, so spake Maester Luwin:

But some twelve thousand years ago, the First Men appeared from the east, crossing the Broken Arm of Dorne before it was broken. They came with bronze swords and great leathern shields, riding horses. No horse had ever been seen on this side of the narrow sea. No doubt the children were as frightened by the horses as the First Men were by the faces in the trees. As the First Men carved out holdfasts and farms, they cut down the faces and gave them to the fire. Horror-struck, the children went to war. The old songs say that the greenseers used dark magics to make the seas rise and sweep away the land, shattering the Arm, but it was too late to close the door.

This part stands out to me, "No horse had ever been seen on this side of the narrow sea. No doubt the children were as frightened by the horses as the First Men were by the faces in the trees. " No doubt the Singers knew the First Men would keep coming, but felt they must do something to stop the influx of horses themselves. Or Dothraki. I know this sounds funny, and petty, but why else break the Arm? Men have boats. Perhaps the Maester himself was speaking a bit more accurately than he realized...

While breaking the Arm was an awesome display of magic, what did the Singers hope to accomplish from it? I know the common belief, but in reality, it didn't change things much unless you happened to be a Khal with "southron" intentions :smoking:

That last line made me shiver!

Putting that bit about horses into the World book, as if to hammer the Dothraki-horse connection home, does underscore it, doesn't it. I hadn't made that connection myself, was more thinking about Spaniards horses introduced to South America, but in this world when I think about horses I don't think about the sand steeds nearly as much as I think Dothraki. Thanks for the quote!

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Yes, I rather think the Dothraki are being overlooked in the Dany and her Amazing Dragons scenario, because if she does turn up in Westeros she isn't just going to have the beasties all ready to arrive in the very nick of time to deal with the Others [all six of them - or five if Ser Puddles was one of the original six brothers], she's going to have a murderous Dothraki khalasar as well

If she can get the ships to cross the Dothraki and their horses over, and we've already seen that that might happen with arrival of all those fleets. But it wouldn't be easy even then to cross them because ... There is no land bridge. Gives incredible long-sighted ness to the Greenseers of that age if this was one of the purposes for the Breaking.

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Not necessarily. I don't really see the Dothraki as conscious players in the game of Ice and Fire but rather as tools to be manipulated. I think their purpose is to add yet more moral ambiguity to Danaerys and underscore her possible role not as saviour of mankind but as Destroyer of Worlds - all for the best possible motives.


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Not necessarily. I don't really see the Dothraki as conscious players in the game of Ice and Fire but rather as tools to be manipulated. I think their purpose is to add yet more moral ambiguity to Danaerys and underscore her possible role not as saviour of mankind but as Destroyer of Worlds - all for the best possible motives.

I have a feeling pretty much every POV will be getting darker in TWOW :)

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Perhaps a mistake we're making is equating the magic which screwed the seasons as being of recent origin and associated with the Long Night. Perhaps its earlier and had something to do with that mysterious elder race associated with the basalt ruins and the seastone chair, and that the First Men who entered Westeros across the Arm of Dorne were entering on to a land which had once been tundra.

This to me has been the most intriguing revelation by the World book as it gives the type of topography where again there seems to have been clear volcanic activity as Basalt erupts from the Mantle and and cools. Its super hard though,put Obsidian to shame.So its another volcanic rock per se.I think there is something to the idea that we have to look futher back for the screwing up of the seasons.What they did with the Basalt is pretty impressive and they have that air of mystery to them indicative of the Puma Punku where your looking at a structure and asking how and who.

Just an addition to the discussion in the previous thread about the role of Dany and the dragons as destroyers -

For my part, I agree that Dany and the dragons represent a major threat to Westeros, but I see them as a concurrent threat with the Others, rather than one or the other being the 'true threat.'

I've made this comparison before, and I'll make it again, because it rings true to me: I think the larger Fire and Ice conflict that seems to be building up is more a repeat of the Lion and Wolf dynamic that played out in the War of the Five Kings, rather than a good vs. evil situation. We see in the Riverlands that, regardless of whether or not one fought for the Lion or the Wolf, the consequences for your average peasant were the same. That Robb and the Starks are more sympathetic as human beings than Joffrey and Tywin was meaningless for those swept up into their war.

Similarly, I can't imagine that this impending clash of major powers can be anything but disastrous for your average Westerosi, even if we can find sympathy for the motives of the force building up north of the Wall.

Another textual comparison I would make is the Blackwater; GRRM spends all of aCoK building it up, and by the time the battle actually roles around we have characters that are both sympathetic and unsympathetic on both sides, and it becomes difficult to view a victory for either side as something to root for. Instead, it's just more meaningless death for the masses in service of a very small group of entitled noble families.

Yeah at the end of this the human death toll is going to be very high and maybe that is as it should be.I agree there are going to be sympathetic characters on both sides.But to be honest how many sides there might be is something very different.I believe there is an impending conflict there are alot of stakeholders involved. My fear is there's alot of powerful tools in this game and unfortunately they don't know they are tools.

I share this view of seasonal imbalance. It seems so fundamental to this universe that it must predate the Dawn Age itself.

And, Lady Barbrey, you may be on to something regarding the Breaking of the Arm.... Four times removed...from Heresy 135, via the Citadel, via Bran's POV in AGOT, so spake Maester Luwin:

But some twelve thousand years ago, the First Men appeared from the east, crossing the Broken Arm of Dorne before it was broken. They came with bronze swords and great leathern shields, riding horses. No horse had ever been seen on this side of the narrow sea. No doubt the children were as frightened by the horses as the First Men were by the faces in the trees. As the First Men carved out holdfasts and farms, they cut down the faces and gave them to the fire. Horror-struck, the children went to war. The old songs say that the greenseers used dark magics to make the seas rise and sweep away the land, shattering the Arm, but it was too late to close the door.

This part stands out to me, "No horse had ever been seen on this side of the narrow sea. No doubt the children were as frightened by the horses as the First Men were by the faces in the trees. " No doubt the Singers knew the First Men would keep coming, but felt they must do something to stop the influx of horses themselves. Or Dothraki. I know this sounds funny, and petty, but why else break the Arm? Men have boats. Perhaps the Maester himself was speaking a bit more accurately than he realized...

While breaking the Arm was an awesome display of magic, what did the Singers hope to accomplish from it? I know the common belief, but in reality, it didn't change things much unless you happened to be a Khal with "southron" intentions :smoking:

Maybe .....Wasn't Westeros inhabited by Unicorns at one time?

Completely concur. That's why Feast was so important to the story, I think, because we get a real sense of devastation to the commoners throughout Westeros. So many people have died in these wars as soldiers or innocent civilians that every time someone gives numbers in an army, ie he had ten thousand men with him and they almost all die, I start a worried tally in my head - how many people, whatever side they're on, can be left after all this devastation? One of the characters even says the Trident battle is down in history as the battle between Rhaegar and Robert, but believe him there were many others killing and dying in that battle.

Anyway, any time I think of the Dothraki hordes actually crossing to Westeros I shudder for the people, just as much, actually more than, when I think of an Others' invasion. Westeros is going to die, regardless of who might win, unless there is a conversion of 'spirit' or pact. Watching each character's path in human terms shows how likely they may or may not be willing to give up the death dance in a final moment. Doesn't look good for Dany.

Yep anytime the Dothraki lands in Westeros people should start grabbing ankles right about now.Hopefully the Khalassar would tell Dany..."Dothraki don't do snow,see ya"

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Yep anytime the Dothraki lands in Westeros people should start grabbing ankles right about now.Hopefully the Khalassar would tell Dany..."Dothraki don't do snow,see ya"

One can only hope! More likely some thing along the lines "oh did we say STALLION that mounts the world? Sorry we meant female khaleesi mounting a dragon. Close though isn't it?"

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This to me has been the most intriguing revelation by the World book as it gives the type of topography where again there seems to have been clear volcanic activity as Basalt erupts from the Mantle and and cools. Its super hard though,put Obsidian to shame.So its another volcanic rock per se.I think there is something to the idea that we have to look futher back for the screwing up of the seasons.What they did with the Basalt is pretty impressive and they have that air of mystery to them indicative of the Puma Punku where your looking at a structure and asking how and who.

Yeah at the end of this the human death toll is going to be very high and maybe that is as it should be.I agree there are going to be sympathetic characters on both sides.But to be honest how many sides there might be is something very different.I believe there is an impending conflict there are alot of stakeholders involved. My fear is there's alot of powerful tools in this game and unfortunately they don't know they are tools.

Maybe .....Wasn't Westeros inhabited by Unicorns at one time?

Yep anytime the Dothraki lands in Westeros people should start grabbing ankles right about now.Hopefully the Khalassar would tell Dany..."Dothraki don't do snow,see ya"

Bearing in mind that the World Book was "written" by a Maester of the Citadel, I would not be surprised to eventually learn the murky basalt ruins are simply artifacts of the first of the First Men migrations, representative of some long abandoned architectural style. Flimsy hunch, perhaps, but we have little else.

Regarding Unicorns... hard to say. I think Osha may make mention of something... Maybe Samwell...in the Castle Black archival research...? Hard to say, but in any case a Unicorn is not a horse. And we've yet to see what a Planetosi Unicorn actually resembles.

Regarding the Dothraki Invasion of Westeros... perhaps this is why the White Walkers are rising. Let's see if they can shatter an Arakh as easily as they shatter a steel sword.

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