Heresy 142 [World of Ice and Fire spoilers]

[Matthew.]

Maybe I'm being crazy here, but I was imagining our lost race of black stone builders not just predating the First Men, but maybe even predating the Singers and giants. Their structures appear everywhere from the Iron Islands to Asshai, the far eastern and western edges of the known world, yet nobody claims knowledge of them.

Not necessarily. It sounds very much like that black basalt maze which was discussed earlier - something to do with the Old Gods. The two aren't incompatible of course but I have my doubts.

I'm also inclined to wonder a little whether the Valyrians really could perform these wonders with dragon-flame or whether they merely pretended they had built those black structures.

Maybe, but Asshai was also built by the lost race, it's heavily associated with dragon-lore, and we have GRRM's comment that dragons could once be found everywhere in the known world. I was kind of envisioning at least some of the lost race as having been dragonlords in their own right--given how large their empire is implied to be, it's not improbable that they were as magically varied as the current generation; nature worshipers, sea worshipers, dragon riders, and so forth.

If we're supposed to take anything at all away from the easter eggs with the elder race, besides the Lovecraft homage, I think it's the implied horror of a race capable of spanning continents, yet still being so thoroughly erased that only their structures remain. It kind of plays into the trend of Planetos being a place where magical catastrophes of apocalyptic scale can occur, especially with the reputation the black structures have of not long suffering habitation--even Asshai seems only habitable by healthy adults.

[Armstark]

I'm also inclined to wonder a little whether the Valyrians really could perform these wonders with dragon-flame or whether they merely pretended they had built those black structures.

It would have been very hard for the Valyrians to pretend they could do it when they actually couldn't. How could they reasonably maintain the illusion? How would anyone believe them when they never built anything new like that? You also have to consider that some of the fused black stone structures have been built pretty recently. Dragonstone for example is no older than 1000 years by all accounts. Not much fog of history there.

Not necessarily. It sounds very much like that black basalt maze which was discussed earlier - something to do with the Old Gods. The two aren't incompatible of course but I have my doubts.

I challenge you to look again. The black basalt mazes have not much in common with the Hightower foundation other than both being black. Another hint that they are not the same is that the Valyrians never claimed to have built the basalt mazes.

[Black Crow]

Mazes aren't mighty walls, built to impress. Whether we equate the upright structures with the Valyrians or not we're still left with the black mazes under Hightower and on Lorath, and perhaps under the sidhe hills as well. And in both the latter cases at least we have an association with darkness and the third eye. Whether there is such an association with Hightower we as yet don't know but I'd suggest that we're closer to the blind god in the darkness than to the dragons.

After all faced with the fires of Nuclear war [or dragons] where else do you go to survive and fight if not into underground bunkers.

[MaesterSam]

Hi everyone, it's been a while but I thought I'd peek in... and I see I have a lot to catch up on! Very interesting discussions you've been having! :)

Not necessarily. It sounds very much like that black basalt maze which was discussed earlier - something to do with the Old Gods. The two aren't incompatible of course but I have my doubts.

I'm also inclined to wonder a little whether the Valyrians really could perform these wonders with dragon-flame or whether they merely pretended they had built those black structures.

You mean they may have just stumbled upon structures/roads left by a previous advanced civilization and claimed them as their own? Very interesting! Just how advanced were the Valyrians really? We know they made Valyrian steel and had those magic skype candles, so they couldn't have been complete frauds... and yet, the Targaryens didn't build a single impressive stone structure in Westeros in over 300 years. Why not?

(To be fair, they only had dragons for the first 100 years. Still, that's several generations- should be plenty of time to build something. There is of course Dragonstone. Assuming they really built it. It fits the style, but IIRC it's made of normal rocks, not the fancy black stuff.)

I suppose we could apply this question to other "world wonders" as well- did the Braavosi build the Titan? I think many of us already doubt that the NW built the Wall, at least without help. Nagga's ribs on the Iron Islands are another example of advanced architecture (unless they really are ribs, of course).

Just how many advanced, ancient civilizations have there been? And what happened to them all, that they would disappear without a trace?

[MaesterSam]

Maybe I'm being crazy here, but I was imagining our lost race of black stone builders not just predating the First Men, but maybe even predating the Singers and giants. Their structures appear everywhere from the Iron Islands to Asshai, the far eastern and western edges of the known world, yet nobody claims knowledge of them.

Maybe, but Asshai was also built by the lost race, it's heavily associated with dragon-lore, and we have GRRM's comment that dragons could once be found everywhere in the known world. I was kind of envisioning at least some of the lost race as having been dragonlords in their own right--given how large their empire is implied to be, it's not improbable that they were as magically varied as the current generation; nature worshipers, sea worshipers, dragon riders, and so forth.

If we're supposed to take anything at all away from the easter eggs with the elder race, besides the Lovecraft homage, I think it's the implied horror of a race capable of spanning continents, yet still being so thoroughly erased that only their structures remain. It kind of plays into the trend of Planetos being a place where magical catastrophes of apocalyptic scale can occur, especially with the reputation the black structures have of not long suffering habitation--even Asshai seems only habitable by healthy adults.

YES. This is what really creeps me out- the maze builders were so very advanced, and found everywhere, yet completely disappeared with not even a legend or story remaining of their civilization.

These mass extinction events do seem to be of a recurring or cyclical nature- every few thousand years, civilization is wiped out and has to start over. The one thing that doesn't quite fit is the doom of Valyria. It seems to have been a very focused event, taking out Valyria and its immediate surroundings but not causing global death and destruction (as would have been required for any event that killed the maze builders.) It's weird in how it seems to have targeted the Valyrians, but nobody else. A bit like the Hardhome incident, though on an entirely different scale.

The Long Night on the other hand seems to have been less selective, killing everyone in its path. And yet, it did not wipe out the Westerosi population nearly as completely as the Doom did the Valyrians. Unless its intention was to wipe out only a specific subset of the population? If these catastrophic events are not random, but target advanced civilizations, perhaps the LN ended when it did because it had accomplished its objective? Bran the Builder could have been the last remnant of the previous advanced civilization. While he lived, their technology lived on, but with his death these methods were forgotten.

I realize I am faaaar into crackpot territory here, and personally don't even like the idea of these events being targeted in any way. However, they don't appear to be random natural catastrophes, and if not natural, who/what is causing them and why?

[Matthew.]

Mazes aren't mighty walls, built to impress. Whether we equate the upright structures with the Valyrians or not we're still left with the black mazes under Hightower and on Lorath, and perhaps under the sidhe hills as well. And in both the latter cases at least we have an association with darkness and the third eye. Whether there is such an association with Hightower we as yet don't know but I'd suggest that we're closer to the blind god in the darkness than to the dragons.

After all faced with the fires of Nuclear war [or dragons] where else do you go to survive and fight if not into underground bunkers.

If the Elder Race was utilizing dragons to construct their buildings, such as Yeen and the Five Forts, that does not preclude the same race (and methodology) being used for the mazes. If anything, it makes a sort of sense--if this is the time period where dragons could be found all over the world, and dragons were being utilized in combat, then surely such bunkers might be useful during times of war.

Just because all of these structures came from the same race, that does not mean that that race was all part of a single, unified empire; think of it in terms pre-Conquest Westeros, where you might find plenty of superficially similar structures, styles of dress, etc., yet still a variety of petty kingdoms at war with one another.

If the Elder Race were to go to war with one another, using dragons, one might assume that it'd be useful to have bunkers for the civilian population--in addition to the potential magical/enlightenment purposes the mazes might have had in peace time.

Edit: It's the WB that has raised the idea of this Elder Race in the first place, and also the WB that suggests that structures like the maze in Oldtown or the Five Forts resemble the fused black stone of Valyria in material, but not in aesthetic style (and, in the case of the Five Forts, are known to predate Valyria); I see no reason to doubt the WB's own implicit assertion that all of these structures were created utilizing dragon fire.

[Black Crow]

I suppose it's perhaps worth bearing in mind that the eponymous Ice Dragon was an interloper in a war between two kingdoms both possessed of the ordinary [!] fire-breathing kind so it's not impossible that having bombed each other back to the stone age, the Dawn age followed - I speak metaphorically of course.

[Matthew.]

However, they don't appear to be random natural catastrophes, and if not natural, who/what is causing them and why?

I would say they're not natural, but not necessarily intentional either. I think they're more the consequence of these civilizations going too far in disrupting the natural order with their magic; and, in some cases, I think Martin is doing a fantastical/magical take on the concept of nuclear war, and escalation of arms.

For real world comparisons, we could have an extinction event caused by a super volcano on the natural end, or nuclear war on the unnatural end--in either case, it would be death by fire and ice; first comes the fire, then the long volcanic/nuclear winter to take care of the rest of the population.

This, in my opinion, would fit in Melisandre's view of the war that has been waged since the dawn of time; civilizations advance, discover the unique magical properties of Planetos, use them in increasingly hubristic and selfish ways, and inevitably cause their own magical demise. In the Elder Race's case, it might have been an escalating magical war. In Valyria's case, it was partially self-inflicted from trying to defy nature in the Fourteen Flames.

I also feel semi-confident in this interpretation because of the nuclear fallout imagery associated with Valyria. 400 years later, and it's still uninhabitable, and the nearest inhabited city (Mantarys) has a reputation for physical deformity, plus the rumors of 'demons' being spotted in the vicinity of Valyria.

[Matthew.]

I suppose it's perhaps worth bearing in mind that the eponymous Ice Dragon was an interloper in a war between two kingdoms both possessed of the ordinary [!] fire-breathing kind so it's not impossible that having bombed each other back to the stone age, the Dawn age followed - I speak metaphorically of course.

It'd sure be neat (to me) if this gave us a means by which the Ice Dragon could have been set on Planetos, but still (mostly) unrelated to current events :dunno:

[MaesterSam]

I would say they're not natural, but not necessarily intentional either. I think they're more the consequence of these civilizations going too far in disrupting the natural order with their magic; and, in some cases, I think Martin is doing a fantastical/magical take on the concept of nuclear war, and escalation of arms.

For real world comparisons, we could have an extinction event caused by a super volcano on the natural end, or nuclear war on the unnatural end--in either case, it would be death by fire and ice; first comes the fire, then the long volcanic/nuclear winter to take care of the rest of the population.

This, in my opinion, would fit in Melisandre's view of the war that has been waged since the dawn of time; civilizations advance, discover the unique magical properties of Planetos, use them in increasingly hubristic and selfish ways, and inevitably cause their own magical demise. In the Elder Race's case, it might have been an escalating magical war. In Valyria's case, it was partially self-inflicted from trying to defy nature in the Fourteen Flames.

I also feel semi-confident in this interpretation because of the nuclear fallout imagery associated with Valyria. 400 years later, and it's still uninhabitable, and the nearest inhabited city (Mantarys) has a reputation for physical deformity, plus the rumors of 'demons' being spotted in the vicinity of Valyria.

Wow, I think this is the first theory I've heard that has the potential to explain much of the big picture. Martin did live through the Cold War so it makes sense that this constant threat of annihilation would have shaped his work! It combines several interesting observations that have come up before, such as Valyria possibly digging too deep, or someone creating the Others for whatever purpose and then losing control. As civilizations advance, they dabble in magic, and eventually take it beyond what they can control... and there goes the civilization. Love it.

I suspect that the maesters, with their interest in history, have figured out this pattern and this is why they oppose magic. Not because they don't believe it's real or a powerful weapon, but because they know that it is, and what has happened to others who have taken it too far.

I wonder what the wildlings dug up at Hardhome? What is in those caves? Did people not go in there to look for survivors, especially after hearing screams? (Not that I would, lol, but wildlings are pretty brave). I would love to know more about the origins of those caves/tunnels, and all the other tunnels - the ones Bran is in, for example, that reach farther than even the Children have ever ventured, or the ones Gendel and Gorne got lost in. IIRC, the well below the Nightfort also continued extending downward, below the Black Gate, and same goes for the stairs at the Winterfell crypt. There seems to have been a lot going on underground back in the day... I wonder if some of the ancient WMD's are still around, and shouldn't be disturbed.

As a side note, the Children seem to be perfectly adapted to this destructive cycle that is periodically repeated by men. They live underground (like the ancients, hmmm...), and, importantly, the caves seem to constitute a self sustaining ecosystem somehow, with the mushrooms, fish and water... One could survive down there for a long, long time even if the land above ground was a charred wasteland or completely frozen over. I like Black Crow's comparison to an underground bunker- and this bunker is well stocked with self-replenishing provisions and a way to observe the outside world to see when the latest apocalypse is over. Pretty brilliant!

[King Tyrion XX]

Maybe I'm being crazy here, but I was imagining our lost race of black stone builders not just predating the First Men, but maybe even predating the Singers and giants. Their structures appear everywhere from the Iron Islands to Asshai, the far eastern and western edges of the known world, yet nobody claims knowledge of them.

Maybe, but Asshai was also built by the lost race, it's heavily associated with dragon-lore, and we have GRRM's comment that dragons could once be found everywhere in the known world. I was kind of envisioning at least some of the lost race as having been dragonlords in their own right--given how large their empire is implied to be, it's not improbable that they were as magically varied as the current generation; nature worshipers, sea worshipers, dragon riders, and so forth.

If we're supposed to take anything at all away from the easter eggs with the elder race, besides the Lovecraft homage, I think it's the implied horror of a race capable of spanning continents, yet still being so thoroughly erased that only their structures remain. It kind of plays into the trend of Planetos being a place where magical catastrophes of apocalyptic scale can occur, especially with the reputation the black structures have of not long suffering habitation--even Asshai seems only habitable by healthy adults.

Isn't Harrenhal made of black stone? Just to add to black structures that aren't inhabited for long.

[Phillip Frye]

I'm also inclined to wonder a little whether the Valyrians really could perform these wonders with dragon-flame or whether they merely pretended they had built those black structures.

I'm not buying it. Armstark brought up Dragonstone, which we know that the Valyrians built. Also, consider the roads that they made out of fused stone. Were the Old Ones kind enough to build those roads to connect Valyria with its empire and outposts millennia before the rise of Valyria? That would have been very foresighted of them.

[Phillip Frye]

Isn't Harrenhal made of black stone? Just to add to black structures that aren't inhabited for long.

Harrenhal wasn't originally built of fused stone (it became fused and deformed shortly after completion). What is interesting about Harrenhal is that blood went into the mortar.

Actually, Harrenhal has been inhabited almost continuously since built.

[Phillip Frye]

This, in my opinion, would fit in Melisandre's view of the war that has been waged since the dawn of time; civilizations advance, discover the unique magical properties of Planetos, use them in increasingly hubristic and selfish ways, and inevitably cause their own magical demise. In the Elder Race's case, it might have been an escalating magical war. In Valyria's case, it was partially self-inflicted from trying to defy nature in the Fourteen Flames.

That would also explain Fermi's Paradox.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Nobody is saying Cthulu himself is going to rear up out of the waters -that was supposed to be a pun! As to your other point,mostof us are still grappling with what the essential struggle is, let alone its timelessness.

BTW, the description of Moat Cailin has its roots in another fantasy text. I thought I recognized it but hadn't paid much attention till I read 135. It was the names and descriptions of the towers, the name Cailin itself,and even the stone used that gave it away. Martin gives us a literary lineage for this as well as historical. Any guesses, anyone? :)

I don't think it has anything to do with Glen Cook's Black Company novels, though the black oily stones do recall portions of Shadows Linger. (And there are other ways that Martin's story echoes that tale - a series that has long been one of my favorites, and that I highly recommend.)

So I don't know. But I'm eagerly waiting to read the answer...

[King Tyrion XX]

Harrenhal wasn't originally built of fused stone (it became fused and deformed shortly after completion). What is interesting about Harrenhal is that blood went into the mortar.

Actually, Harrenhal has been inhabited almost continuously since built.

True but the inhabitants keep dying.

[Black Crow]

Good Morning to you all, you will, I trust, forgive a moment of self-indulgence for this is Heresy’s 3^rd name day.

It was originally posted as The Wall, the Watch and a Heresy, on 28 November 2011 consolidating some ideas which had been aired in other discussions at the time, and then, somehow like Topsy “it grewed”.

A lot of what we have written over the last three years has been mince, a lot of it has been crackpot. Some of it seemed like a good idea at the time and some of it has and still does provoke fierce arguments. And yet the core of heresy remains, strengthened by SSMs, the HBO show and by the World Book, namely a questioning of the popular narrative that R+L=J and that J = AA and will save the world from the mysterious but unquestionably evil Others. Instead our suspicions remain as to the true origin and purpose of the Wall and the much darker role of the Starks.

It’s worth in this regard looking again at Old Nan’s tales which once informed us as to what goes bump in the Night.

The wildlings were cruel men, she said, slavers and slayers and thieves. They consorted with giants and ghouls, stole girl children in the dead of night, and drank blood from polished horns. And their women lay with the Others in the Long Night to sire terrible half-human children…

“They carry off women and sell them to the Others.”

Jon remembered Old Nan’s tales of the savage folk who drank blood from human skulls.

And we know how that turned out with Jon learning the truth, taking a Wildling to wife and being acknowledged their king. He also learned that giants don't wear seven league boots or live in castles. And then there’s this one:

Old Nan told scary stories of beastlings and shapechangers sometimes. In the stories they were always evil.

So are the Starks evil, or is Old Nan talking mince? Because if it’s the latter how are we to interpret this one:

“They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins.

GRRM has already assured us they aint dead, so what else are we going to learn that aint quite true. After all we’ve had it confirmed that they are indeed Craster’s sons* – and it was the Nights Watch who killed him, not the cold lot coming in the night.

The fact of the matter is that the story, like all stories, has evolved as its gone on and nothing is as it at first appeared. There are some out there who argue that a re-think on Craster’s boys is a step too far, yet the story has at least two volumes still to go and who knows what else is to be revealed?

One way of guessing of course is by figuring out GRRM’s sources and seeing where they lead us, and it’s in this exploration of other literature that Heresy excels. The realization [and confirmation] of the parallels with Conrad’s Heart of Darkness and the consequent suspicion that the Heart of Winter is the Heart of Darkness by another name has to be one of the highlights, but to me one of the greatest joys of this thread has been our discussions of Celtic and Nordic folklore and everything that goes with it.

As always I remain humbled by the erudition brought to this thread in so many ways and also by how over these three years we have managed to maintain a civilized conversation characterized by great good humour, goodwill and ultimately perhaps, friendship.

In his post yesterday Mace thanked me for clicking the POST button three years ago. I have to thank all of you for participating and doing the same to make Heresy what it is.

Thank You

[Black Crow]

As a side note, the Children seem to be perfectly adapted to this destructive cycle that is periodically repeated by men. They live underground (like the ancients, hmmm...), and, importantly, the caves seem to constitute a self sustaining ecosystem somehow, with the mushrooms, fish and water... One could survive down there for a long, long time even if the land above ground was a charred wasteland or completely frozen over. I like Black Crow's comparison to an underground bunker- and this bunker is well stocked with self-replenishing provisions and a way to observe the outside world to see when the latest apocalypse is over.

This is the sort of thing I have in mind; they are known as the children of the forest, yet we find them living deep underground.

[Black Crow]

... I would love to know more about the origins of those caves/tunnels, and all the other tunnels - the ones Bran is in, for example, that reach farther than even the Children have ever ventured, or the ones Gendel and Gorne got lost in. IIRC, the well below the Nightfort also continued extending downward, below the Black Gate, and same goes for the stairs at the Winterfell crypt. There seems to have been a lot going on underground back in the day... I wonder if some of the ancient WMD's are still around, and shouldn't be disturbed.

You mean dragons? :devil:

[Matthew.]

I wonder what the wildlings dug up at Hardhome? What is in those caves? Did people not go in there to look for survivors, especially after hearing screams? (Not that I would, lol, but wildlings are pretty brave).

This might be very crackpot, but at one time I was really fond of the notion that there are firewyrms (like we learn about from the Kindly Man) living in some of the geothermal hotspots in Westeros, and they were responsible for what happened at Hardhome. Furthermore, it was my belief that this is how the Horn of Winter would function--it would wake sleeping 'giants' (firewyrms), summon them to the location of the horn, and cause massive seismic activity beneath the Wall from their burrowing.

In retrospect, of course, the Horn functioning this way would probably make for an awfully slow destruction, unless there's hordes of firewyrms dormant beneath the Wall; also the WB has seemingly confirmed the notion that "wake sleeping giants beneath the earth" is just a fancy Westerosi way of saying earthquake.