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(TWOIAF Spoilers) Bloodraven almost as ruthless as Tywin


Mr Hodor

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What assumptions? Did i make any? Because i don't think i did.

The only thing I could interpret as an assumption is that one might infer by the "love and hate reasons" that you're assuming Daeron II is the brother Brynden said he loved. (That's not how I interpret the post, mind.) I think Brynden will have loved Daeron, but I'm not entirely convinced that it's Daeron he's referring to - but it most likely is Aegor that is the brother he hated, so...it wouldn't change anything.

I agreed with what you posted, for what it's worth.

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He chose the side he chose for love and hate reasons, alright. But he stuck with that side, which ATM was the current regime's side, and remained faithful throughout it. He didn't even (apparently) hold grudges towards Egg for sending him to the Wall; i guess even he saw the dishonor he brought to House Targaryen with his treachery towards Aenys Blackfyre. By being a greenseer, he could be surgical in bringing treason to light with the least amount of force, and none of what we've read about him suggests he overexerted his power or his violence.

Most of thes are assumptions.

1. We don't know what Brynden's reasons for going to the Wall were. Maybe he had his own agenda.

2. We don't know what his greenseer abilities will lead up to.

3. We don't even know (I might be wrong here) whether he held grudges towards Egg or not.

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Most of thes are assumptions.

1. We don't know what Brynden's reasons for going to the Wall were. Maybe he had his own agenda.

2. We don't know what his greenseer abilities will lead up to.

3. We don't even know (I might be wrong here) whether he held grudges towards Egg or not.

1. You're confusing "assumption" with "drawing from the existing text".

2. BR didn't need reasons to go to the Wall. He was sentenced to by the King.

3. We have an actual D&E story where his greenseer abilities were put to good use to suffocate rebellion with the least amount of force.

OTOH

4. He may or may not have hold grudges: i'll concede it's an assumption (i left the word "apparently" there for a purpose), but we have no evidence he did. He was an old man by the time he took the black and, like Jeor Mormont, he might as well have seen it as an honorable downgrade even before it happened. Hell, he could've literally seen it coming and encourage it.

The only thing I could interpret as an assumption is that one might infer by the "love and hate reasons" that you're assuming Daeron II is the brother Brynden said he loved. (That's not how I interpret the post, mind.) I think Brynden will have loved Daeron, but I'm not entirely convinced that it's Daeron he's referring to - but it most likely is Aegor that is the brother he hated, so...it wouldn't change anything.

I agreed with what you posted, for what it's worth.

The most accepted theory is that the brother he loved was Daeron and the brother he hated was Aegor, isn't it? Anyway, my statement of love & hate works both ways. On one hand, it may be seen as noble; OTOH, it may be seen as a weak reason to back someone for a politician who is purportedly concerned for the good of the realm (the point of comparison with Tywin). But the most important thing is that he was consistent and fought from the start for what he thought was right even if nobles and commoners alike hated him (like a mostly benign version of Varys).

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The most accepted theory is that the brother he loved was Daeron and the brother he hated was Aegor, isn't it? Anyway, my statement of love & hate works both ways. On one hand, it may be seen as noble; OTOH, it may be seen as a weak reason to back someone for a politician who is purportedly concerned for the good of the realm (the point of comparison with Tywin). But the most important thing is that he was consistent and fought from the start for what he thought was right even if nobles and commoners alike hated him (like a mostly benign version of Varys).

I think he definitely did love Daeron and that's the most obvious brother he could be referring to, but I do think it's possibly Daemon. We know Daemon also grew up around the Red Keep and I don't think there's been anything to suggest eminity between Daemon and his siblings until he was a man grown. Might be a bit cliché but I think it'd be poetic - especially considering how Daemon died. I've oft thought that Bloodraven was someone that was misunderstood by all but those closest to him and used that to his advantage, but there's something tragic about the character and I think him loving Daemon once adds to it.

Doesn't change anything though, as you said. I agree with the points you made.

I do hope the next/last Dunk & Egg novella sheds some more light on Brynden. Hopefully Sheira Seastar as well.

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Because people like to project themselves in the image of the strong, cold, ruthless, manly leader. It's essentially why the likes of Vladimir Putin or gangsters try to project that image.

Funny you mention that, because I too have been thinking that Tywin and Putin have a lot in common: they both like to project an image of themselves as cold, ruthless pragmatists... Yet there are massive hints of irrationality in their behaviour. I always thought that Putin, Angela Merkel and the black labrador was a sign that Putin is a petty and irrational man.

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  • 1 month later...

I really don't get those arguments in favor of Tywin!



None of Bloodravens acts were ever so cruel as what Tywin did to Tyrion (rape of Tysha) or the rape of Elia and Murder of her children. As someone pointed out: how can anybody believe Tywin that he didn't plan the whole thing to go down like this? If you send someone to kill the children is is clear that Elia will fight till death to safe her kids and if you send some monster like the Mountain it is also clear what will be the result of her fighting back.



Both were ruthless politicians who broke laws and codes of honor to achieve their goals. Nonetheless Tywin's cruelty tops everything Bloodraven ever did.


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