R+L =J v. 115

[The Twinslayer]

I haven't fully formed an answer that question. But if I were following the trail of blue roses, I'd strongly consider what the vision might tell me about Stark daughters.

Not sure how to verify that. How did you find out?

Oh, I thought you were talking about Martin's trail of blue roses. Martin's blue roses appear to be metaphors for Stark daughters, a part of the history and identity of Winterfell - and that's the primary connection between Lyanna and the flower. But I agree that your trail of blue roses appears to begin and end with Rhaegar. I would challenge you to take a closer look.

I too have a hard time associating the blue rose with Jon rather than the Stark female. Note that when Ned remembers that last time he saw Lyanna, he first sees blue rose petals flashing across the sky (Lyanna is still alive). Then Lyanna dies and the roses are dead. Why would GRRM use dying flowers to represent the new life Ned found at the TOJ?

You may be onto something associating the blue flower in the chink of ice with a Stark daughter. It has also been suggested that the blue flower may be a Karstark female who would show up at the Wall in a later book...only to take a wildling mate, just like her ancestor.

[Alia of the knife]

Regarding the blue rose, doesn't it come from the glass gardens of Winterfell and thus rare?

And it was said that Arya also likes flowers.

My take was that it was more fate.

The crown for the Tournament was commissioned in WF because of its being so rare and that would be in keeping with Lord Whents "fabulousness."

Fate steps in and its the daughter of House Stark where the winter flowers originates, who is the recipient.

And given the absence of her peers, Cersei, Cat, etc. I am beginning to wonder if Lyanna was supposed to be at that tourney.

On a side note, if you celebrate it, Happy TG! :)

Snoopy vs. the Chair (Official PEANUTS Video): http://youtu.be/Ef9KvEus6zM

[BearQueen87]

On a side note, if you celebrate it, Happy TG! :)

Snoopy vs. the Chair (Official PEANUTS Video): http://youtu.be/Ef9KvEus6zM

Snoooooooooopy!!

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

It's rather obvious that he is summing up what Dany had told him. There is no way he could conclude by himself that a flower = rose - you can swap a specific term for a general one but not the other way round unless you have extra information. Furthermore, Dany sees a cloth dragon on poles but Jorah says "mummer's dragon" and asks her what it means - it is the words that Dany used when she was describing her experience to him.

That's a helpful observation about the use of the phrase "mummer's dragon." I hadn't recognized that difference in wording before, but you're right - the description in the HoU doesn't use that phrase - it's just "a cloth dragon sway[ing] on poles." So, yes - clearly we're jumping into the middle of an ongoing conversation there. Thanks for pointing that out.

The parallel is that a Stark daughter was kidnapped and in secret gave birth to a son, and in both stories the Stark daughter is associated with a blue rose. However, in Bael's story, the rose represents merely the daughter (it was left behind), whereas in R+L the rose was gifted to the Stark daughter and she kept it. Here you have a crucial difference in the role the rose plays.

In both stories, the blue winter rose is identified with the maiden daughter of Winterfell. In both stories, the flower is left in the place "where her head had lain" (skull or maidenhead, take your pick). In both stories, a child is left "in payment for the rose [that was] plucked unasked."

There are differences, of course. But I think it's a stretch to say that the blue rose, as a symbol, would operate in a completely different way for the more recent version of the tale than it does in the older one. Particularly as the earlier clearly pre-figured the later events - and we should expect some consistency in Martin's use of symbolism within his overall story.

.

[MtnLion]

Shiny new, precious. Tower of joy and Ygrain's comments linkies in my signature.

The child is exchanged for the blue rose, implies equality of the child to the blue rose. The daughter is replaced by the rose, but that is not equated, as a payment, it is a theft (Wildling marriage). The payment comes later.

The blue rose left in the daughter's bed can be considered a promise of a male child in exchange for the theft of the daughter. But, clearly the daughter is stolen by Wildling tradition, while the rose is not.

[Alia of the knife]

Snoooooooooopy!!

The original "Snoop." :cool4:

(This always resonated with me because we had a lawn chair that was almost as bad).

In reading the information on WF itself and all the rare books, (apprarently they have the original "Engines of War"), I'm surprised Rhaegar wouldn't have been drawn to their library, or Aemon.

Was it ever said if Jon spent any "alone time" in that library? :idea:

[Erudain]

Nor is there any way of being sure they'd never been there.

But you're getting ahead things, a bit. It's not clear that the "wall of ice" in this vision is the same as the Wall of ice we've all come to know and love. And the blue rose doesn't represent Rhaegar, anyway.

.

Onus probandi...burden of proof lies on you if you claim they were.

Otherwise is like using Russell's teapot analogy...

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

You think there is another giant wall of ice somewhere on Planetos?

ETA: actually asking, no sarcasm...

Nope. But the wall of ice in Dany's vision is not described as being "giant," or any other size. And if the flower is a metaphor (one idea on which we all seem to agree), then why assume the wall is just a wall? If one element of the vision is expressed as metaphor, then wouldn't the rest seem just as likely to be metaphorical?

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Double post.

[BearQueen87]

Nope. But the wall of ice in Dany's vision is not described as being "giant," or any other size. And if the flower is a metaphor (one idea on which we all seem to agree), then why assume the wall is just a wall? If one element of the vision is expressed as metaphor, then wouldn't the rest seem just as likely to be metaphorical?

Then if you don't think the wall is THE WALL and the flower isn't Jon..then what's going on with that scene?

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Then if you don't think the wall is THE WALL and the flower isn't Jon..then what's going on with that scene?

Well, the word "chink" is suggestive to me. I'm inclined to wonder if the "wall of ice" represents a character whose human heart is otherwise well concealed and protected by his cold, hard exterior.

[sj4iy]

Well, the word "chink" is suggestive to me. I'm inclined to wonder if the "wall of ice" represents a character whose human heart is otherwise well concealed and protected by his cold, hard exterior.

That's way, WAY too metaphysical for this story. Martin's writing a fantasy story, not a philosophy book.

[Ygrain]

That's a helpful observation about the use of the phrase "mummer's dragon." I hadn't recognized that difference in wording before, but you're right - the description in the HoU doesn't use that phrase - it's just "a cloth dragon sway[ing] on poles." So, yes - clearly we're jumping into the middle of an ongoing conversation there. Thanks for pointing that out.

Why, you're welcome. I thought this was old information.

In both stories, the blue winter rose is identified with the maiden daughter of Winterfell. In both stories, the flower is left in the place "where her head had lain" (skull or maidenhead, take your pick). In both stories, a child is left "in payment for the rose [that was] plucked unasked."

Wait wait wait, how is the rose left in the place of Lyanna's maidenhead? It, or rather the crown, is placed in her lap, but it is in no way an exchange for anything Lyanna's. Nor is Lyanna identified with the rose as such, the rose is an object that she loved (and it yet remains to be seen if her love for winter roses was pre-or post-Harrenhal)

There are differences, of course. But I think it's a stretch to say that the blue rose, as a symbol, would operate in a completely different way for the more recent version of the tale than it does in the older one. Particularly as the earlier clearly pre-figured the later events - and we should expect some consistency in Martin's use of symbolism within his overall story.

First and foremost, there is no rule saying that an author must stick to a single way of using anything. Second, Bael's story is parallel only in general features, the R+L story is very different. It's like finding parallels between ASOIAF anbd Wars of the Roses - the parallels are definitely there but the story are not the same, their characters are not the same, nor are the twists and outcomes. It seems that you expect a parallel to work 100% but that's not how the writing goes.

[BearQueen87]

Well, the word "chink" is suggestive to me. I'm inclined to wonder if the "wall of ice" represents a character whose human heart is otherwise well concealed and protected by his cold, hard exterior.

I'm with sj4iy on this one, to be honest. We have Jon, associated with blue roses once you put RLJ together, who lives at an ice Wall with the sweet sadness that, to me, speaks to the tragedy that is RL.

But because I genuinely like reading what you have to say...any character in mind?

[Kingmonkey]

There is just one crown at a tourney, the champion is not crowned.

ETA for spelling.

Are you sure about that?

Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion's crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

...seems to imply the champion's crown and Lyanna's laurel are separate things. I agree it's not conclusive that the champion's crown is a physical thing, but it's the best interpretation unless there's something clearer elsewhere.

Ok, so why I have ZERO issue with Jon being symbolized by a "female symbol"

Balance.

I think there's a simpler point here if we keep in mind that R+L=J is an as yet unrevealed mystery. We are presented with the idea the Jon Snow is Ned's son. Using a symbol associated with Lyanna to represent him makes perfect sense simply because he is secretly the child of a daughter of Winterfell rather than a son of Winterfell.

[Greymoon]

That's way, WAY too metaphysical for this story. Martin's writing a fantasy story, not a philosophy book.

uhm...and the beautiful woman being ravished by dwarves is not, metaphorical? And the cloth dragon isn't either?

[Greymoon]

I'm with sj4iy on this one, to be honest. We have Jon, associated with blue roses once you put RLJ together, who lives at an ice Wall with the sweet sadness that, to me, speaks to the tragedy that is RL.

But because I genuinely like reading what you have to say...any character in mind?

The obvious character is Jon, imo.

[sj4iy]

uhm...and the beautiful woman being ravished by dwarves is not, metaphorical? And the cloth dragon isn't either?

I said "metaphysical", not "metaphorical".

[BearQueen87]

The obvious character is Jon, imo.

But that's a problem from what Snofyre is arguing, which is that the blue flower isn't Jon. Unless Snowfyre wants to say that her big metaphor for a divide heart is Jon but the flower itself isnt' Jon which....I find a wee bit convoluted for the sake of convoultedness.

The blue winter rose is Jon, the product of RL, a symbol which began for us at HH and her crowning. It's simple. I know we're all trained to look for complexity, but honestly, I think RLJ is intricate enough that this just another puzzle piece instead of being something else.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

I'm with sj4iy on this one, to be honest. We have Jon, associated with blue roses once you put RLJ together, who lives at an ice Wall with the sweet sadness that, to me, speaks to the tragedy that is RL.

But because I genuinely like reading what you have to say...any character in mind?

Well, I continue to explore options. But there are several male characters who might fit. Two that I find rather interesting are Roose Bolton and Tywin Lannister.